My case for moving on without Moss

[mgteich]

Saying this five more times won't make it any more true.

1) Moss is on the last year of his contract, The contract calls for Moss to be paid $6.4M for his services in 2010.

2) We have two injured WR's: Welker and Tate.

3) We have no other receiver other than Edelman (Stanback and Aiken don't really count)

4) Moss is well-worth $6.4M. However, given the injuries, it really doesn't matter. We need to keep our only experienced WR.

5) Belichick will bring in as many receivers as he can secure. Moss's compensation will not affect how much we will pay these receivers. It is very reasonable to secure two better than average receivers. Belichick failed last year with Lewis and Galloway. He'll try again this year, when the need is greater.

6) Depending on what we get in free agency before the draft, we also may use a top pick for a WR. Again Moss's salary is irrelevent.

7) The salary DEMANDS of Moss for 2011 are relevent to whether he remains with the team in 2011. This is obvious to everyone.

BOTTOM LINE
Given the circumstances, no competent GM would get rid of Moss at this point.

I guess my basic argument is this; Is Randy Moss, in his current state, worth $10 mil / yr? Or, would the Pats be better off getting 2 or 3 above avg WR's with that money?

 

[Yfz01]

Here is my case for getting rid of Randy Moss - he hasn't put up 23 TDs since 07', and it is obvious that his skills are declining.

Over the last three years

Yards

1)Andre Johnson- 3995
2)Larry Fitzgerald- 3932
3)Reggie Wayne- 3919
4)Randy Moss- 3765
5)Roddy White- 3737
6)Brandon Marshall- 3710
7)Wes Welker- 3688
8)Steve Smith- 3405
9)Greg Jennings- 3325
10)Cavin Johnson- 3071
11)Marques Colston- 3036
12)Chad Ocho Cinco- 3027
13)Anquan Boldin- 2915
14)Vincent Jackson- 2893

TD's (using the same players)

1)Randy Moss- 47
2)Larry Fitzgerald- 35
3)Reggie Wayne- 26
4a)Andre Johnson- 25
4b)Greg Jennings- 25
4c)Marques Colston- 25
7a)Roddy White- 24
7b)Anquan Boldin- 24
9)Brandon Marshall- 23
10a)Cavin Johnson- 21
10b)Chad Ocho Cinco- 21
12)Steve Smith- 20
13)Vincent Jackson- 19
14)Wes Welker- 15

 

[TriplecHamp]

Picking receivers in the first round is almost as risky as you can get. The success teams are having with picking them in the second round is astounding. We should probably wait until the second or later if you want a receiver. Id rather bring in a FA and draft a couple.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I guess my basic argument is this; Is Randy Moss, in his current state, worth $10 mil / yr? Or, would the Pats be better off getting 2 or 3 above avg WR's with that money?

So you're saying cut Randy Moss and use that money? Even if you do that you don't get the full $10M to spend on WR, it's more like $6M.... you cannot get 2 above average WR's with that in today's market and even if you do they could end up the next Joey Galloway. Moss is a proven fit here with Brady and you can about pencil in another 10+ TD's for the next year barring injury. There's no sensible reason for cutting Randy Moss right now.

 

[Deus Irae]

And my point is how do we get quality WR's any different than we currently have with Moss getting paid $10 mil at that position. With him occupying so much coin, our options are extremely limited to players like Galloway and Aiken.

Yes, the team needs new blood in the receiving corps. Yes, it needed it last season. Yes, the team drafted Edelman and Tate. Yes, Edelman seems as if he'll be a fine WR3 or WR4 depending upon the offense being run. Yes, the team still needs an outside receiver to compliment Moss.

Yes, I'd love to see the team sign a WR2 that can threaten the middle/deep part of the field. Yes, I'd love to see this team show the kind of receiving depth that teams like the Colts and Cardinals do. Yes, I wish Chad Jackson had worked out for the team.

No, getting rid of Moss doesn't help find a complimentary receiver to Moss. No, getting rid of Moss doesn't make Edelman or Aiken any better. No, getting rid of Moss doesn't give the team the money to go out and sign two elite wide receivers.

Bottom line: Moss is declining in skills, but he's still at the top of the heap and getting rid of him just to be rid of him would be foolish. Now, if the Lions lose their minds and come offering Calvin Johnson for Moss, I'll drive Randy to the Airport. Short of that, let hope the Patriots bring in another outside receiver, run more slant routes and deep crossing patterns, and diversify the offense while Welker's rehabbing.

 

[TriplecHamp]

So you're saying cut Randy Moss and use that money? Even if you do that you don't get the full $10M to spend on WR, it's more like $6M.... you cannot get 2 above average WR's with that in today's market and even if you do they could end up the next Joey Galloway. Moss is a proven fit here with Brady and you can about pencil in another 10+ TD's for the next year barring injury. There's no sensible reason for cutting Randy Moss right now.

We would be stupid to cut Moss.

 

[The Dynasty]

No doubt Moss is contributing and hes still a top 10 wide receiver but lets get real here, hes been banged up all season and hes going to be 33 years old going into next season. I saw him literally held on to with one hand by a corner yesterday, How long does he have left? Now you have a guy like Vincent Jackson who is an inch taller, just as fast right now and hes on the upside of his career. I want you to watch him Jacksons route running and the separation he gets. You cant tell me you haven't seen Moss get shut down and Welker picks up the slack (because teams pay so much attention to Moss). All in all the receivers we had in the SB years were great route runners and Moss' Routes havnt been sharp recently. I'm not saying statistically but physically hes not as dominant. People still respect him and rightfully so.

Yes I will agree that Moss is aging and getting older and some of the things he used to do early in his career he cannot do now. But that is a topic for next year's off season, not this one. It is not like he isnt a contributor to the team anymore, he is still a top 10 receiver in the league. Moss was banged up for most of the 2009 season, so even not playing 100% he put up the numbers that he did.

You cant compare Moss to Jackson. The numbers speak for themselves. Moss was better than Jackson every receiving category. I am not saying Jackson is a bad receiver, I am just saying Moss is a better one. And do you think the Chargers would really let Jackson go to another team without giving him a serious offer?

 

[Synovia]

Simms did say that Moss was not being bracketed or double covered, but this was when the

Sims was clearly not watching the same game as me. They were definitely covering moss over/under most of the game. The scheme worked so well because they could get pressure with only 3/4 guys.

The offensive line needs some upgrades.

 

[Synovia]

Yes, the team needs new blood in the receiving corps. Yes, it needed it last season. Yes, the team drafted Edelman and Tate. Yes, Edelman seems as if he'll be a fine WR3 or WR4 depending upon the offense being run. Yes, the team still needs an outside receiver to compliment Moss.

Yes, I'd love to see the team sign a WR2 that can threaten the middle/deep part of the field. Yes, I'd love to see this team show the kind of receiving depth that teams like the Colts and Cardinals do. Yes, I wish Chad Jackson had worked out for the team.

Why don't you think Edelman will be able to work the middle/deep? Hes MUCH faster than Welker, and Welker caught quite a few deep passes this year.

 

[Satchboogie3]

You get rid of Moss and you are looking at Edelman/Aiken as your #1 receiver with practically no talent or even depth behind them.

The only way we trade Moss is if we can get AT LEAST 3 good-great receivers. I don't think that is likely, thus, you don't trade Moss.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Yes I will agree that Moss is aging and getting older and some of the things he used to do early in his career he cannot do now. But that is a topic for next year's off season, not this one. It is not like he isnt a contributor to the team anymore, he is still a top 10 receiver in the league. Moss was banged up for most of the 2009 season, so even not playing 100% he put up the numbers that he did.

You cant compare Moss to Jackson. The numbers speak for themselves. Moss was better than Jackson every receiving category. I am not saying Jackson is a bad receiver, I am just saying Moss is a better one. And do you think the Chargers would really let Jackson go to another team without giving him a serious offer?

The thing is we can match that number if we wanted too. Physically you can easily compare the two as they are both physical specimens but no career wise you cannot as Moss is a 1st ballet HoFer. My point is do you actually expect Moss to come out and match that production next year? I don't but I still expect him to draw double teams and put up anywhere between 10-15 TDs but I expect Jackson to do the same. I don't know why but I just don't see the drive in Moss, he rarely goes up for the ball anymore and he really shy away from any contact what so ever. I hope we keep him but we are still going to have to add a legit #3 receiver and preferably one that can be an #1 in 2011.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This makes no sense. And the cap effect is irrelevant, given that Moss is in his last year of his contrct, and there will be no cap in any case.

Except that as long as he is here it will continue to revolve around finding ways to involve him. Because if you don't that will cause a whole other set of problems for the Qb and HC. Is that really what you want Brady and the offense spending 24/7 on for another season? I know talent is seductive but sometimes it just doesn't win. Moss hasn't been a real difference maker here. We haven't won since he arrived. We had one hell of a regular season in 2007, but even then he and it faded down the stretch. Since then... If you want to try one more year with someone else outside to help spread coverage then you're going to have to entirely rebuild that OL overnight to give Brady time to get to him deep because that's the only place he truly can have an impact. He can't live in the middle even part time. It just drains him. I'd rather spend the offseason teaching this offense to a couple of guys with the versatility to work multiple areas of the field less predictably. I'm sick and tired of being beaten by a freakin' blueprint.

 

[The Dynasty]

Sims was clearly not watching the same game as me. They were definitely covering moss over/under most of the game. The scheme worked so well because they could get pressure with only 3/4 guys.

The offensive line needs some upgrades.

Simms was correct with his observations. In the first half the Ravens were doubling Moss, but then in the 2nd half the Ravens switched into prevent mode and were not doubling Moss. That is when he got all his catches, when they stopped doubling him.

 

[emoney_33]

The thing is we can match that number if we wanted too. Physically you can easily compare the two as they are both physical specimens but no career wise you cannot as Moss is a 1st ballet HoFer. My point is do you actually expect Moss to come out and match that production next year? I don't but I still expect him to draw double teams and put up anywhere between 10-15 TDs but I expect Jackson to do the same. I don't know why but I just don't see the drive in Moss, he rarely goes up for the ball anymore and he really shy away from any contact what so ever. I hope we keep him but we are still going to have to add a legit #3 receiver and preferably one that can be an #1 in 2011.

Moss will put up better numbers next year than he did this year, because there is no way the Patriots fail at getting another wideout this offseason as badly as things went in that department this past offseason. Moss has also always shyed away from contact his whole career, and he's had a pretty remarkable career I'd say.

 

[The Dynasty]

The thing is we can match that number if we wanted too. Physically you can easily compare the two as they are both physical specimens but no career wise you cannot as Moss is a 1st ballet HoFer. My point is do you actually expect Moss to come out and match that production next year? I don't but I still expect him to draw double teams and put up anywhere between 10-15 TDs but I expect Jackson to do the same. I don't know why but I just don't see the drive in Moss, he rarely goes up for the ball anymore and he really shy away from any contact what so ever. I hope we keep him but we are still going to have to add a legit #3 receiver and preferably one that can be an #1 in 2011.

So what are you saying? That we keep Moss as well as adding Jackson? That probably isnt going to happen.

There is no question that we need to add a legit #3 receiver. This needs to come from FA, not from the draft. It is very rare to see a WR drafted make an immediate impact in his rookie season.

Thinking for the future in 2011 with the possibility of losing Moss I could see the Pats drafting a WR this season which could be his replacement. The WR class is pretty deep so I could see the Pats using one of their 2nd rounders on a WR, but definitely not our 1st rounder. Our 1st rounder needs to be the best pass rusher available.

 

[emoney_33]

Except that as long as he is here it will continue to revolve around finding ways to involve him. Because if you don't that will cause a whole other set of problems for the Qb and HC. Is that really what you want Brady and the offense spending 24/7 on for another season? I know talent is seductive but sometimes it just doesn't win. Moss hasn't been a real difference maker here. We haven't won since he arrived. We had one hell of a regular season in 2007, but even then he and it faded down the stretch. Since then... If you want to try one more year with someone else outside to help spread coverage then you're going to have to entirely rebuild that OL overnight to give Brady time to get to him deep because that's the only place he truly can have an impact. He can't live in the middle even part time. It just drains him. I'd rather spend the offseason teaching this offense to a couple of guys with the versatility to work multiple areas of the field less predictably. I'm sick and tired of being beaten by a freakin' blueprint.

This is your forced opinion of the situation, not fact. Please stop with this nonsense. There is no extra work or round the clock babying of Moss. Brady and Moss are good friends but the offense does NOT revolve around finding ways to stroke Moss' ego. Never has and never will.

There is NO blueprint, simply many factors limiting our abilities along with very inconsistent play and inexperience. You continue to let your bias against Moss fly in the face of everything the Patriots have proven to stand for under BB.

This offense played pretty well this season considering all the factors. Brady will have a full knee-healthy offseason and come back even stronger next season. The Patriots will find another deep threat and Moss will put up another top 5 receiver year. Rest assured everyone here will still nitpick and throw him under the microscope, as they did even in 2007 when they broke records.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Moss will put up better numbers next year than he did this year, because there is no way the Patriots fail at getting another wideout this offseason as badly as things went in that department this past offseason. Moss has also always shyed away from contact his whole career, and he's had a pretty remarkable career I'd say.

I really hope your right but I don't know. Yes Moss has always shyed away from contact but will that cut it (consistently) in todays NFL with all of these hard hitting defenses. It seems all you have to do is bump and run against us and bring heavy pressure. I really havnt seen him go up and get the ball all year long and that isnt a good sign.

 

[TriplecHamp]

So what are you saying? That we keep Moss as well as adding Jackson? That probably isnt going to happen.

There is no question that we need to add a legit #3 receiver. This needs to come from FA, not from the draft. It is very rare to see a WR drafted make an immediate impact in his rookie season.

Thinking for the future in 2011 with the possibility of losing Moss I could see the Pats drafting a WR this season which could be his replacement. The WR class is pretty deep so I could see the Pats using one of their 2nd rounders on a WR, but definitely not our 1st rounder. Our 1st rounder needs to be the best pass rusher available.

Yes I want both on the team next season but If I had to chose one Id choose Jackson because he brings much of what Moss brings (Deep Threat) and he has better upside in the future.

Edit on the Bold: This season alone, Crabtree, Harvin, Nicks, Britt, Robiske, Massoqua, Wallace, Hartline, Murphy, Collie, Knox, and some guy named Edleman.

 

[The Dynasty]

Yes I want both on the team next season but If I had to chose one Id choose Jackson because he brings much of what Moss brings (Deep Threat) and he has better upside in the future.

It would be nice to have them both on the Pats next season, but I just cannot see it happening. The Pats need to add 2 WR's this offseason and instead of spending all their money on Jackson, which I think would be extremely hard to take him away from SD. They should spend their money on 2 quality second tier WR's such as Malcolm Floyd or Antonio Bryant.

 

[emoney_33]

I really hope your right but I don't know. Yes Moss has always shyed away from contact but will that cut it (consistently) in todays NFL with all of these hard hitting defenses. It seems all you have to do is bump and run against us and bring heavy pressure. I really havnt seen him go up and get the ball all year long and that isnt a good sign.

Defenses aren't allowed to be as physical today as they were in Moss' PRIME, so I don't get what your worry with that is?

Also what it "seems" like is very often a lot different than what it "is". Moss generally runs routes that take longer to develop, so a poor performing OL will effect Moss' stats more than a quick strike receiver like Welker. Bump and run on Moss always is accompanied with safety help, but quick pressure along with tight coverage will hurt all 32 offenses in the NFL. That's the NFL, that's the goal every defense has against every offense with a good passing attack.

The game is won and lost in the trenches... aint that the truth.