Michael Holley on WEEI....

[JoeSixPat]

best kicker last year?....stop believing the hype and review the facts...mediocre kicker at best over 40yds.....mr. clutch who missed 2 in that Panthers superbowl....shes gone long live the queen

...looks like someone else was hookwinked by the statistical analysis that proves that Vanderjagt is a better kicker than AV.

I suppose you could prove that Gramatica is much better kicker than AV as well. One can use statistics to prove anything. 95% of all people know that!

The point of the thread and my post is that we have more significant needs heading into the draft this year than we did last year. I don't think anyone's been able to disprove that.

 

[DarrylS]

How can you make these statements? Since when does BB & SP have moles or let the players know what is going on? Maybe you are thinking of another organization bcs the Pats are the most tight-lipped of an team.

He knew about the Troy Brown Signing and called in to report that AV was signed by Indy, before it hit the press...that is how I know. Sometimes organizations leak info to certain people if it is used correctly..

 

[JackBauer]

I agree. Even if Davis stays at TE, try Watson @ WR.

Man ....

I'm glad you all aren't working for the Patriots.

 

[JoeSixPat]

He knew about the Troy Brown Signing and called in to report that AV was signed by Indy, before it hit the press...that is how I know. Sometimes organizations leak info to certain people if it is used correctly..

There's no question that the Patriots leak information to the press when its to their advantage. The thought that they would not use their information resources to their advantages wouldn't make them "tight lipped" - just stupid.

If information is leaked one should always questions why it was leaked, and should even question whether misinformation was leaked - as it often is leading up to the draft.

But BB & co. simply use the information they have wisely and aren't above leaking to the media if its in the best interest of the team.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Man ....

I'm glad you all aren't working for the Patriots.

There's been some discussion here on the TE as WR before. Its not a completely crazy idea, depending on how you are looking at the positions.

From a production standpoint TEs can and often do equal or surpass the production of WRs. Plenty of TEs have caught 60, 70, 80, even 90+ passes in a season.

But even though Watson showed his speed and tenacity last season, I don't think we can assume he can stretch the field as a WR for successive plays throughout a game. I'd expect he'd still get his receptions on short or mid-yardage situations, hopefully picking up some yards after the catch.

The reason one has "wide" receivers is to stretch the field and open up the short pass opportunities for the RBs, TEs and third down recievers like Troy.

So while I think Watson can grab a ton of passes, that doesn't address the need for another WR who can pose a downfield threat to open up the running and short passing game.

Beyond that, I can't remember the last time we made it through a season without an injury to a TE or key member of the OL. It'd be great to see what this team could do without having to keep a TE in to block and having 2 healthy TEs available for Brady to target at the same time.

So if you are counting on Watson to have WR like catches, you'd better hope everything falls into place to allow him to take on that role.

 

[BradyBirdYazOrr]

...looks like someone else was hookwinked by the statistical analysis that proves that Vanderjagt is a better kicker than AV.

I suppose you could prove that Gramatica is much better kicker than AV as well. One can use statistics to prove anything. 95% of all people know that!

The point of the thread and my post is that we have more significant needs heading into the draft this year than we did last year. I don't think anyone's been able to disprove that.

Thats right joey Dont let facts get in the way of your opinions..Fact vinatieri cant hit consistently over 40yards anymore..opinion He has a cute butt...Fact his kickoffs had a nasty habit of being caught on the 15yard line..opinion hes dreamy...never once did I say vanderjerk was better just that most of the league was better Fact

 

[JoeSixPat]

Thats right joey Dont let facts get in the way of your opinions..Fact vinatieri cant hit consistently over 40yards anymore..opinion He has a cute butt...Fact his kickoffs had a nasty habit of being caught on the 15yard line..opinion hes dreamy...never once did I say vanderjerk was better just that most of the league was better Fact

The same statistical analysis you cite is the one showing that Vanderjagt is a better kicker than Adam V. - I'm sure you knew that.

Of course I'm the one who pointed out that Adam hasn't made a 50 yarder since 2002 when Adam V. was a main topic of discussion, so you;re preaching to the choir on that one.

I just find it hilarious that I'm getting flack for having the guts to suggest we have a need at kicker! You've seemed to miss the point here - Adam's gone.

Is Gramatica an upgrade? Is Gramitica even assured of winning the job? I haven't heard anyone suggest that. Do we have a need at kicker - absolutely yes. Bashing Adam V. isn't going to fill that need either.


...and just a word of advice from a Patsfans veteran to a newbie - if you want to have a shred of credibility around here you might want to refrain from relying on homophobic insults in a desparate effort to bolster your arguments, BradyBirdYazOrrie

 

[spacecrime]

In past seasons we've generally had all starting positions filled and have used free agency and the draft to acquire depth and youth.

This year is different. We have significant holes to fill and a more pressing need for quality depth given many of our departures.

What? What starters are we missing?

We only lost three starters, a WR, a K, and an OLB. Two have been replaced.

We are the same as most years, looking to the draft to acquire depth.

You and BB/SP may have a disagreement as to the quality of the starters, but we still acquired replacement starters in FA just like always.

Every year players leave, and every year people say "We can't win after these losses." Whether it is Ted Washington, Damien Woody, Ty Law, Adam Vinitieri, David GIvens, or the great purge of 2000 and 2001, the team has always bounced back.

It is the nature of the NFL to lose players every year. Until we lose 19 starters like the Ravens did a few years ago, I'm not particularly worried if we lose a 34 year old LB, a No.2 reciever and a kicker.

Are all fans so gllom and doom, or just Pats fans?

 

[BradyBirdYazOrr]

The same statistical analysis you cite is the one showing that Vanderjagt is a better kicker than Adam V. - I'm sure you knew that.

Of course I'm the one who pointed out that Adam hasn't made a 50 yarder since 2002 when Adam V. was a main topic of discussion, so you;re preaching to the choir on that one.

I just find it hilarious that I'm getting flack for having the guts to suggest we have a need at kicker! You've seemed to miss the point here - Adam's gone.

Is Gramatica an upgrade? Is Gramitica even assured of winning the job? I haven't heard anyone suggest that. Do we have a need at kicker - absolutely yes. Bashing Adam V. isn't going to fill that need either.


...and just a word of advice from a Patsfans veteran to a newbie - if you want to have a shred of credibility around here you might want to refrain from relying on homophobic insults in a desparate effort to bolster your arguments, BradyBirdYazOrrie

Hey joey im not a newbie ive been lurking this site for years....i made no homophobic comments get over yourself...i was just pointing out your mancrush on av...I did not know you were gay and did not mean to offend ..btw I am a firm believer if gramatica wins the job he could very well be an upgrade...especially on long field goals and kickoffs

 

[Digger44]

He knew about the Troy Brown Signing and called in to report that AV was signed by Indy, before it hit the press...that is how I know. Sometimes organizations leak info to certain people if it is used correctly..

oh great here we go

 

[Digger44]

Man ....

I'm glad you all aren't working for the Patriots.

i am glad you are not either

 

[JoeSixPat]

Hey joey im not a newbie ive been lurking this site for years....i made no homophobic comments get over yourself...i was just pointing out your mancrush on av...I did not know you were gay and did not mean to offend ..btw I am a firm believer if gramatica wins the job he could very well be an upgrade...especially on long field goals and kickoffs

Stick with the lurking newbie.

I'm sure AV appreciates your assessment of him as "dreamy" and his "cute butt" but we do have a few openly gay members here who have earned a ton of respect for their football knowledge, so keep the homosexual references to yourself.

Apparently anyone who thinks we still have a question mark at Kicker must have a mancrush on Vinatieri?

That's some pretty deep football insight you're bringing to the board.

 

[spacecrime]

It's very easy to slate someone once they have left isn't it? I suppose you would have preferred Vanderjagt in the Carolina superbowl? After all he was automatic at that time.

Please. A bit more respect for former players wouldn't go amiss.

All the respect in the world for AV's ASnow Bowlkick, but it is a fact that he was NOT automatic and missed two FGs in the Carolina SB. He was 4 for 8 in 40+ FGs last year, and that by any statistical measure he was middle of the pact.

Just because a guy leaves is no reason to make him into something he isn't.

He's a great kicker. But believe it or not the team can win without him.

 

[JoeSixPat]

All the respect in the world for AV's ASnow Bowlkick, but it is a fact that he was NOT automatic and missed two FGs in the Carolina SB. He was 4 for 8 in 40+ FGs last year, and that by any statistical measure he was middle of the pact.

Just because a guy leaves is no reason to make him into something he isn't.

He's a great kicker. But believe it or not the team can win without him.

Apparently some people still want to debate whether Adam was a great clutch kicker or not - that's fine but doesn't really have anything to do with the draft.

What just about everyone can agree on is that there's a very big question as to who our kicker will be.

Most everyone admits that its not even assured Gramatica will make the team. (Although one person asserts that IF he makes the team he'll be BETTER than AV. How's that for a vote of confidence! )

 

[DaBruinz]

The point I took from Holley's comments and this thread was not whether or not we have signficant needs yet to be addressed in the offseason. We do and that's a fact.

As I described I took Holley's comments as a suggestion that there are things BB controls and things he doesn't.

He doesn't control who he can and can't trade for (it takes two to tango) - but he does control who he drafts at each selection, picking from the remaining players.

That's why Holley, I surmise, was suggesting that BB will attempt to address some needs PRIOR to the draft with attempted trades.

That which remains unadressed prior to the draft will be addressed in the draft. Additional moves will probably be possible following camp cuts, and with trades for players other teams no longer value, but that's not something you want to count on.

No one seems to be overly disagreeing in this thread - my point is simply that we have a much higher degree of need for starters and depth at many positions than we did last year. Different needs can require different strategies.

Last year we lacked WR depth.
This year we have less depth than before.

Do we have less depth? That is debatable. The Pats have Branch, Johnson, Caldwell, Brown, Childress, McGrew, J. Stone, and Musinski. I will agree that they have less vetted talent, but, its no worse than what they had in 2001.

Last year we thought we needed to start looking for the RB of the future.
This year that concern appears even more pressing.

People have been thinking that the Pats needed to be looking for a RB of the future since Robert Edwards was injured. Why does it appear to be a more pressing concern this year over any other year? Its not. And there is still plenty of time for that question to be answered.

Last year we needed quality OLB & ILB backups.
This year we still have that need, our FA pickups falling short of expectations, and our remaining starters all a year older.

This is partially false. The Pats have very good depth at OLB last year heading into the season. The question was only at ILB and it was made worse by the untimely retirement of Ted Johnson.

Last year we had the best kicker in the NFL.
This year we have a big question mark.

Sorry, but the best kicker in the NFL last year was Neil Rackers. Not Adam Vinatieri. Adam may have been the most clutch kicker last year, but even that is debatable since he missed a clutch FG against Denver.

Last year we had Willie McGinest making valueable contributions.
This year we do not.

You like stating the obvious. So, we don't have Willie. I think it stinks as well. But someone else will have to step up. And, in the past they have. Whether its Mike Vrabel in 2001 or David Patten in 2002 or Eugene Wilson in 2003. Players will step up. And the Pats will put that player in a position to succeed. Whether its TBC, Colvin, Vrabel or a draft pick, the Pats will have a ILB to play the elephant position and spread the remaining responsibility out.

Last year we had a healthy Rodney Harrison helping to make a young secondary better through his presence.
This year we hope he returns at full speed.

This is not entirely true. We only had a healthy Rodney for 3 games. After that, he was a non-factor. I fully expect him back in the line-up. And I expect him and Hawkins to truly help bring along players like Sanders, Scott and Mitchell.

vv Last year we had 3 quality TEs on the roster.
This year we have 2 but many question whether Graham will re-sign in the offseason.

Last I looked, it was still mid April and not right before the start of TC. There is still time to add a TE. Maybe a Jed Weaver or a draft pick. And that person would be the #3 TE.

This strikes me as a slightly different picture than the last few years, and I expect that BB recognizes the differences as well. That being said I understand why re-signing Givens and McGinest was not feasible and lament the fact that AV would not give the Pats a chance to match when they could have (should have?) franchised him again.

None of that is relevant to this thread. Its simply a matter of what our needs are now and how we are going to address them.

I don't believe that this year is any different than any other year that BB and Pioli have been running this team. I mean, when you look at 2003, the Pats had a question about NT until about 3 weeks before the start of the season. in 2001, the Pats had Troy Brown and a troubled Terry Glenn as receivers. They brought in Charles Johnson, Bert Emmanuel, Torrance Small, and David Patten to see who could win a job.

I mean, I can remember people, after David Given's 2002 season, being so down on the kid and writing him off. It was only because of his outstanding off-season of hardwork and dedication to improving that earned him a spot on the 2002 team.

Each year, players are forced to step up. Some times they succeed (as David Patten and Tom Brady did). Other times they aren't successful or fail outright (Like Donald Hayes, Steve Martin). Other times, they just aren't ready and it takes longer.

Anyways, my over-all point is that the Patriots have 68 players tendered with 6 of them assigned to NFLE. The Pats also have 11 draft picks. That means the Pats can sign another 7 players before they reach the 80 man limit (not includeing NFLE players). I fully expect BB to do that after the draft.

There are still some playerss like Jonathan Wells available. Guys who could, potentially, step up and make a difference. Another possibility is Shaun McDonald, an RFA.

 

[ras_d1]

drafting a TE

no one will get this far to read this post, but if the Pats draft a TE in the 1st round I'm giving up on them.

 

[Digger44]

no one will get this far to read this post, but if the Pats draft a TE in the 1st round I'm giving up on them.

If that is all it takes for you to give up on a team maybe you should try the Indi board. Give me a break, and learn how to be a fan.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Do we have less depth? That is debatable. The Pats have Branch, Johnson, Caldwell, Brown, Childress, McGrew, J. Stone, and Musinski. I will agree that they have less vetted talent, but, its no worse than what they had in 2001.

That's more of an indictment of last year than it is a rationale to feel good about our current WR corp of a #1 and a lot of #4s

People have been thinking that the Pats needed to be looking for a RB of the future since Robert Edwards was injured. Why does it appear to be a more pressing concern this year over any other year? Its not. And there is still plenty of time for that question to be answered.

If you're asserting that Corey's not finished yet, I'm in agreement. But look around here and you'll find plenty of folks asserting that he's finished. So chalk that up as a need in the draft too.

This is partially false. The Pats have very good depth at OLB last year heading into the season. The question was only at ILB and it was made worse by the untimely retirement of Ted Johnson.

...so all those folks who assert we'll take an LB with our 1st pick just over-reacting because we actually have no need for quality depth?

Sorry, but the best kicker in the NFL last year was Neil Rackers. Not Adam Vinatieri. Adam may have been the most clutch kicker last year, but even that is debatable since he missed a clutch FG against Denver.

Best kicker or not - he's gone. Who is our starting kicker? No one knows if he's on the roster or not. Let's call this a need as well.


Let me again restate my premise in this thread:

You re-tool your team through free agency, the draft, and trades.

Free agency hasn't produced much for us

Trades depend on the willingness of other teams to work with you, so I'd favor seeing the Pats attempt trades before the draft

That would allow us to use the draft more effectively and efficiently to address our remaining needs.

As far as cuts available late in camp, I'm just not going to hold my breath waiting for affordable talented players with great upside to be let go by other teams.

Its amazing - I drink the kool-aid just like most everyone else here, but you suggest that your team has needs and doesn't have the greatest receiving corps or a proven kicker and everyone's down your throat (OK BradyBirdOrrYaz - just try to make another homosexual joke with THAT!)

 

[DaBruinz]

That's more of an indictment of last year than it is a rationale to feel good about our current WR corp of a #1 and a lot of #4s

You missed my point. My point was that its ignorant to assume that just because they aren't name players they won't step up, Joe. It had nothing to do with a rationale about feeling good. That is you making assumptions. My rationale is that its friggin APRIL and you seem to be making mountains out of mole hills.

If you're asserting that Corey's not finished yet, I'm in agreement. But look around here and you'll find plenty of folks asserting that he's finished. So chalk that up as a need in the draft too.

Why do you insist on making up explanations that have nothing to do with what I said. I said that people have been saying we've needed a RB of the future for YEARS. In other words, that they don't really understand the situation or the need for the offense to be successful. And the Patriots haven't had a "RB of the future" since Robert Edwards. That is going on 10 years now.

...so all those folks who assert we'll take an LB with our 1st pick just over-reacting because we actually have no need for quality depth?

Again, you are making assumptions about what I said. I made no mention of this year. I was referring to your comments of last year. Why do you have to put words in people's mouths?

I think that, this year, there is a need for a starter and that, with the loss of Chatham and McGinest, that the depth needs to be addressed. But that wasn't nearly the case last year. The Pats had tremendous depth at OLB and no depth at ILB.

Best kicker or not - he's gone. Who is our starting kicker? No one knows if he's on the roster or not. Let's call this a need as well.

Currently, the Pats kicker is Martin Gramatica. Whether or not he makes it through training camp is another story. Also, where did I say it wasn't a need? This seems to be another case of you making assumptions about what people say.

Let me again restate my premise in this thread:

You re-tool your team through free agency, the draft, and trades.

Free agency hasn't produced much for us

I think that free agency has produced for the Pats. Every year since 2001 the Pats have added free agents that have helped this team. Yes, its had its share of busts, but its had its share of success stories as well. Joe Andruzzi, Mike Compton, Christian Fauria, Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, etc.

This year, the Pats have signed Gramatica, Caldwell, Warfield, Smith and Mitchell. They have also re-signed Troy Brown, Stephen Neal, Artrell Hawkins, Heath Evans, Chad Scott and Randall Gay. Not to mention the Seymour extension.

It remains to be seen whether Gramatica, Caldwell, Warfield, Smith and Mitchell fall into the bust category or the success category. But I like 4 of the 5 for the success category.

Trades depend on the willingness of other teams to work with you, so I'd favor seeing the Pats attempt trades before the draft

That would allow us to use the draft more effectively and efficiently to address our remaining needs.

That is, assuming, that the Patriots draft strictly by need. Which, we know, they don't. They draft based on value, which includes need as part of the equation.

As far as cuts available late in camp, I'm just not going to hold my breath waiting for affordable talented players with great upside to be let go by other teams.

Who said anything about waiting for camp cuts? There are still plenty of free agents available now. Players like Shaun McDonald and Jonathan Wells.

Its amazing - I drink the kool-aid just like most everyone else here, but you suggest that your team has needs and doesn't have the greatest receiving corps or a proven kicker and everyone's down your throat (OK BradyBirdOrrYaz - just try to make another homosexual joke with THAT!)

Actually, its a case of you blowing things out of proportion and misunderstanding what people are saying in return to your posts. You did that several times in your reply to me.

 

[BradyBirdYazOrr]

Newbie? Oh you silly geek....Gramatica will be better than av next year(which wont take much)...and I have no respect for someone that does not want to be a part of my favorite team...why would I...Listen you can call me names or whatever...but the fact is I am right and will be vindicated next year...no big deal...wanna bet on it Joey?