Malcolm Butler

[Fencer]

The kid is a rookie for all intent-and-purpose. He doesn't even know what he doesn't know yet. Personally I think the expectations on him as a starting CB were way too high this year as it would appear that many came into this year with the expectation that he would play like a first round pick or the next Revis/Talib/Law. The kid has the talent and ability to play as a starting CB in this league. As a rookie starter he is going to have good days, bad days and eh days. He is going to be asked to do things that are a stretch for him at this point in his career sometimes he will succeed sometimes he will fail but IMHO he will continue to grow in talent and skill, I just think we all need to step back and be patient and watch the growth of the next top tier CB in the league.

I'm guessing Butler's performance YTD would be above-average for a 1st-round CB. McCourty was a rookie Pro Bowler, and without recalling details I'm pretty sure Revis had a good first season. But other than the guys who actually get a bunch of INTs their first year, what other rookies have seemed to outperform Butler's current season?

 

[jah]

I'm not sure where he thinks he's going with that. Decker had 6 catches and 86 yards in the two Jets/Patriots games combined last season.

Were 65 of the yards on Revis?

 

[PP2]

The kid is a rookie for all intent-and-purpose. He doesn't even know what he doesn't know yet. Personally I think the expectations on him as a starting CB were way too high this year as it would appear that many came into this year with the expectation that he would play like a first round pick or the next Revis/Talib/Law. The kid has the talent and ability to play as a starting CB in this league. As a rookie starter he is going to have good days, bad days and eh days. He is going to be asked to do things that are a stretch for him at this point in his career sometimes he will succeed sometimes he will fail but IMHO he will continue to grow in talent and skill, I just think we all need to step back and be patient and watch the growth of the next top tier CB in the league.

Agreed. Doesn't even have his bag of tricks yet, and doesn't know as much tell as the other more experienced CB's that have a few years under their belt. Game is going to slow down for him sooner or later, after video study clicks with what he sees on the field.

Right now he has a bad tendency to go for the INT more often than he should- will learn that it's often better to take the sure bet of batting down a pass over the risk of going for an INT, because you sacrifice physical contact as a tool for a PBU when you go for the INT.

 

[Deus Irae]

Were 65 of the yards on Revis?

To repeat:

6 catches and 86 yards in the two Jets/Patriots games combined

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

To repeat:

6 catches and 86 yards in the two Jets/Patriots games combined

That was something missed. Thanks for point that out.

Though I wonder if Revis' numbers would change if he was targeted by Fitzpatrick instead of Geno Smith

 

[Deus Irae]

That was something missed. Thanks for point that out.

Though I wonder if Revis' numbers would change if he was targeted by Fitzpatrick instead of Geno Smith

Who knows? We could also ask if the Revis numbers would have changed if he'd had the benefit of the better pass rush we've seen this year.

 

[BradyFTW!]

That was something missed. Thanks for point that out.

Though I wonder if Revis' numbers would change if he was targeted by Fitzpatrick instead of Geno Smith

Probably not much, Fitz isn't a huge upgrade by any means. If anything might change the dynamic there, it's the addition of Marshall and the emergence of Ivory making Decker less of a point of emphasis for the Jets' offense. But Ivory wasn't healthy on Sunday, so even that isn't really a factor.

All in all, I think there's just no way around the conclusion that Butler looked really bad on Sunday. I think it just exemplifies the fact that we need to be capable of having a measured, reasonable perception of who he is as a player. He isn't as good as people were claiming a week ago, and he isn't as bad as people are overreacting an suggesting now. At this moment, he's an adequate CB1 or a very good CB2, and he has the potential to develop into more. The guy's a first-year starter, which means he was going to have some rough games. Uneven production is to be expected, and the upside of not getting too high on a player based on a small sample size is you don't have to overcorrect and forecast terrible things when he inevitably has a bad game or two. He's nowhere near as good as Revis was last year, but to ever think that he might be was insane in the first place so that shouldn't surprise any reasonable person.

The only long-term takeaway from Sunday that I'd find even mildly concerning is that this is one of the first itmes we've asked Butler to match up against a big WR, and the results were not encouraging. Maybe it's just a blip, maybe not. But I'll be watching very eagerly to see how he holds up against Demaryius and Hopkins (who plays bigger than his size) later this season. I like his ability to stay with guys who win on shiftiness--the Browns, Beckhams, Landrys, Sanders, Edelmans, etc. of the world--and luckily most of the top WRs we see for the rest of the season are guys like that.

 

[Deus Irae]

All in all, I think there's just no way around the conclusion that Butler looked really bad on Sunday. I think it just exemplifies the fact that we need to be capable of having a measured, reasonable perception of who he is as a player. He isn't as good as people were claiming a week ago, and he isn't as bad as people are overreacting an suggesting now. At this moment, he's an adequate CB1 or a very good CB2, and he has the potential to develop into more. The guy's a first-year starter, which means he was going to have some rough games. Uneven production is to be expected, and the upside of not getting too high on a player based on a small sample size is you don't have to overcorrect and forecast terrible things when he inevitably has a bad game or two.

I'm not sure how adequate he is as a CB1 yet but, otherwise, very much this.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I'm not sure how adequate he is as a CB1 yet but, otherwise, very much this.

Yeah, adequate may have been a bit strong relative to how I actually feel. Generally passable may have been a better term. Basically, what I mean is that he isn't 2014 Bradley Fletcher, or whoever was supposed to be our top guy, or even 2008 Ellis Hobbs (who I think was better than he got credit for). He's better than those guys, in that as your top corner, the majority of the time he can go out there and do the job that's asked of him without being exposed as a liability. That's better than a lot of teams can say about their own CB1s, and I do think he'll improve over the next couple years as well.

That said, he's anything but matchup proof. When an extremely good player (Antonio Brown, potentially Jarvis Landry this week and OBJ in a couple weeks if his hamstring heals) and/or a particularly bad matchup (which I suspect Decker might have been) presents itself, there's a good chance he'll be exposed and look pretty bad. To that, I think some blame is more appropriately placed on the Pats for going into the season with no real size at corner. Last year, we had Browner to cover the big, physical guys. This year, Butler might be our best option, and it's not necessarily his fault if he can't do it effectively. It's a team weakness, and not one I like having, but doesn't necessarily say much about Butler beyond "he's not matchup-proof".

 

[Oswlek]

The only long-term takeaway from Sunday that I'd find even mildly concerning is that this is one of the first itmes we've asked Butler to match up against a big WR, and the results were not encouraging.

I found his improvement in the second half to be encouraging.

{insert funny shrug gif here}

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, adequate may have been a bit strong relative to how I actually feel. Generally passable may have been a better term. Basically, what I mean is that he isn't 2014 Bradley Fletcher, or whoever was supposed to be our top guy, or even 2008 Ellis Hobbs (who I think was better than he got credit for). He's better than those guys, in that as your top corner, the majority of the time he can go out there and do the job that's asked of him without being exposed as a liability. That's better than a lot of teams can say about their own CB1s, and I do think he'll improve over the next couple years as well.

That said, he's anything but matchup proof. When an extremely good player (Antonio Brown, potentially Jarvis Landry this week and OBJ in a couple weeks if his hamstring heals) and/or a particularly bad matchup (which I suspect Decker might have been) presents itself, there's a good chance he'll be exposed and look pretty bad. To that, I think some blame is more appropriately placed on the Pats for going into the season with no real size at corner. Last year, we had Browner to cover the big, physical guys. This year, Butler might be our best option, and it's not necessarily his fault if he can't do it effectively. It's a team weakness, and not one I like having, but doesn't necessarily say much about Butler beyond "he's not matchup-proof".

I hear you. It's not on Butler, either. With the Patriots wanting to use a heavy man scheme, this is the year that Butler should be easing into things as the CB2, not getting forced as the CB1. BB's lousy offseason CB FA work is forcing this. Butler as a CB1 this year has been forced into the deep end of the pool while he's still at the dog paddle stage.

- Cue "We shall overcome", and hope it's true.

 

[Deus Irae]

I found his improvement in the second half to be encouraging.

{insert funny shrug gif here}

He got his ass beat in the second half, too.

 

[Bruins29]

I dont think the FA CB stuff was so terrible this year. Sure Fletcher and McClain flamed out....as expected they might, but Brown looked like he was going to be capable and Roberts was a TC surprise. So I think having a bunch of bodies and seeing what will stick can work. Unfortunately one of our hot prospects and a legit vet Starter got injured.

BB I think had to work within the cap restrictions on this position, which were tight. And, he did not have much margin for error.

However, I will say that the CB play this year as been adequate since the team is undeafeated and the D is pretty mid pack as well. That dosent mean I think they are set at the position for the playoffs, and they kinda are an injury away from a real problem.

I hope they can add a body before the looming trade deadline, just in case, or better yet for a playoff run since in that scenario you are going to be facing the better teams and players.

 

[JMC00]

He got his ass beat in the second half, too.

targeted 4 times
allowed 1 rec for 23 yards


Ya really got his "ass beat" in the second half

piss off.

 

[Deus Irae]

I dont think the FA CB stuff was so terrible this year.

It was terrible. Pretending otherwise doesn't change it.

 

[Bruins29]

It was terrible. Pretending otherwise doesn't change it.

I am not pretending. I am looking at it in context. Did not seem like Revis was the solution. Obviously Browner certainly was not. Who should they have gone after.

They seemed to figure that they would live or die with Butler and a adequate Brown from what I saw him so with Ryan and hope that someone else could step up.

Its definitely the weakest part of the team. And they need to do something. But I judge things on results so far. And so far its not as disastrous as it could have been - especially given the 2 IR players, which makes a potential move more crucial.

 

[Deus Irae]

I am not pretending. I am looking at it in context. Did not seem like Revis was the solution. Obviously Browner certainly was not. Who should they have gone after.

They seemed to figure that they would live or die with Butler and a adequate Brown from what I saw him so with Ryan and hope that someone else could step up.

Its definitely the weakest part of the team. And they need to do something. But I judge things on results so far. And so far its not as disastrous as it could have been - especially given the 2 IR players, which makes a potential move more crucial.

Brown was coming off of two injury seasons, Including ending up on the IR last year because of a foot injury, and he was 30. If you're getting him knowing you're all set at CB1 and CB2, you've got a good signing. If you're getting him, and hoping a pair of stiffs will fill out the rosters even though you already know they're stiffs, you've got a terrible FA season, because an injured, middling DB is not the guy you gamble on as your starter.

In context, it was a terrible FA season at CB. BB's not infallible, he knows he's not infallible, and he doesn't demand that we assume he's infallible, so we don't have to pretend he is.

 

[Oswlek]

targeted 4 times
allowed 1 rec for 23 yards

Even Decker said he was more productive in the first half. Can't have a more reliable source than that.

I dont think the FA CB stuff was so terrible this year. Sure Fletcher and McClain flamed out....as expected they might, but Brown looked like he was going to be capable and Roberts was a TC surprise. So I think having a bunch of bodies and seeing what will stick can work. Unfortunately one of our hot prospects and a legit vet Starter got injured.

BB I think had to work within the cap restrictions on this position, which were tight. And, he did not have much margin for error.

Pretty much this. Revis has pretty much admitted that he was not signing here, and Bill's releases of Browner and Arrington have been vindicated by their performance. From there you could make the case that a higher pick or two could have been used on a CB, though that doesn't really solve that "Butler as a #1" problem. You could also question the FAs selected since only Brown panned out. But thems the breaks when you have to shop in the bargain bins.

 

[Tony2046]

I wasn't expecting Butler to be Revis. What I was expecting (in my novice assessment) is that the front seven would force the opposing offense into a couple of mistakes (turnovers or 3 and outs) a game which would allow Brady and Crew to add points to the scoreboard.

Give the opposing offense less time to throw via rush or pressure and ask the secondary to cover for a few seconds and stick to the GTFB mentality.

Was not expecting to get too many coverage sacks this year.

So Butler had a tough time with Decker but the defense still forced enough 3 and outs to give Brady and crew the opportunity to put enough points on the board. Should have been more if not for a dozen dropped passes.

That said an improvement in the secondary would be nice. The Jets were able to convert too many 3rd and longs.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

He's only basically a rookie, remember Pats rookie DBs usually get better after their first year...

Except for McCourty...

And Butler...

And Dennard...

And Ryan...

Maybe we need to teach him to forget everything he learned since training camp.