Malcolm Butler!!!

[Brady_to_Moss]

I am just as happy as fellow fans..but let's calm expectations here a bit and wait until he can face some big time guys out there.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I am just as happy as fellow fans..but let's calm expectations here a bit and wait until he can face some big time guys out there.

I think his role is more as a #3-#4 CB at best. Therefore he won't be going up against many "big time guys out there".

and that's perfectly fine. We got him as an UDFA. No one expects him to be the next Revis.

 

[supafly]

I think his role is more as a #3-#4 CB at best. Therefore he won't be going up against many "big time guys out there".

and that's perfectly fine. We got him as an UDFA. No one expects him to be the next Revis.

I'm glad that you're tempering your expectations, but boy, this is quite the change of heart from earlier in the week...

Not only is Butler making the team... he's gonna see a lot of playing time.

Butler is playing entire games. Playing with the 1st team.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I stand by both those quotes.

Butler IS making the team. He will see a lot of playing time. 3rd-4th CB's get a lot of reps in regular season due to all the 3-4 WR sets. My point was, he won't be facing a lot of "big time guys" like the other poster suggested. Not many teams have big time #3 and #4 WR's.

Butler is playing entire games in pre-season, and he's taking reps with the 1st team quite often.

 

[supafly]

I stand by both those quotes.

Butler IS making the team. He will see a lot of playing time. 3rd-4th CB's get a lot of reps in regular season due to all the 3-4 WR sets. My point was, he won't be facing a lot of "big time guys" like the other poster suggested. Not many teams have big time #3 and #4 WR's.

Butler is playing entire games in pre-season, and he's taking reps with the 1st team quite often.

I'm just joking around and giving you the business. I agree with you 100%. I don't believe that he'll be overtaking the starters anytime soon, outside of injury situations though. I do believe that he can put some heat on some of those guys, so that they don't fully feel comfortable and slack.

As you said, we need a ST only contributor, who can add as a depth option at CB. In the past, we saw Marquice Cole play that role. It'd be great to have an upgrade over a guy like that, who will get called on at times during the season.

 

[DaBruinz]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I love how the Pats list Butler at 5'11 when the guy was 5'9 6/8" at his Pro-Day. Unless he grew an inch since March, I'm calling shenanigans

 

[DaBruinz]

I believe that Butler's success will mean a permanent change for Arrington and/or Ryan to Safety with either of them playing the "STAR" position in the Nickle. I could also see the Pats trying to move Arrington to a CB needy team other than the Jets..

 

[mgteich]

I believe that Butler's success will mean a permanent change for Arrington and/or Ryan to Safety with either of them playing the "STAR" position in the Nickle. I could also see the Pats trying to move Arrington to a CB needy team other than the Jets..

Who is a better nickel than Arrington?

But let's play, keeping Arrington at nickel.

We have awful safeties after McCourty, so let us presume that we make Ryan a starting safety, or at least part of a rotation with Harmon. So, IMHO, we have improved the team at safety.

Le's look at our corners for Game One, presuming everyone is ready to play
Starters: Revis, Dennard or Butler
nickel: Arrington
dime backup: Dennard: or Butler (our Dime could be Ryan)

I'm fine with this, but I would note that we have a core of 7 defensive backs, with no quality backups (none at corner; Chung, Wilson and Ebner at safety. Some would argue that having Chung or Wilson as your #8 isn't terrible. I would tend to agree. But there is certainly no 'extra" players to trade.

But sure, If everyone is healthy after Game 5, I suppose that we would have an "extra" defensive back available.

 

[supafly]

Who is a better nickel than Arrington?

In regards to Ryan/Arrington playing some safety, this was addressed by Belichick last week after the game when he explained that it was more of dealing with PHI's 3 and 4 receiving options (with TE), rather than something we'd be seeing in traditional 2 safety looks. I posted the interview quotes from Belichick in another thread, but don't remember which one.

The truth is we've seen one, maybe one and a half practice(s) this year all through OTAs, mini-camps, and the whole training camp session where Logan Ryan has played at safety. I don't have a crystal ball, but if we were going to see a permanent, full-time move there, wouldn't he have been playing a lot more in terms of getting acclimated to a whole new position? The good thing is that we can use him there to help defend the high-passing attacks of DEN, DET, GB, etc--so just like last year, I'd expect him there at certain times.

I think when players such as Butler tend to come out of nowhere it gives everyone their own idea as to how to best utilize them. That's what is so great about this forum. My opinion is that he's going to make the team as the depth option/ST replacement to Marquise Cole, see some looks when our regular starters get injured at times, and be an option for the future as well. We'll have to see him it all plays out. The future of Kyle Arrington may be coming to an end one way or another, but I'm guessing that's next season.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Malcolm Butler would not have outright "won" the #2 cornerback spot when Brandon Browner is suspended for the first four games of the season and Alfonzo Dennard is currently recovering from off season shoulder surgery.

Patriots' Alfonzo Dennard recovering from shoulder surgery - The Boston Globe - June 18, 2014

By that logic, nobody ever beat out Ras-I-Dowling for a starting job.

 

[mgteich]

So, you say that we will have no shift to safety since no corner has had major reps at that position.
So, at least one of corners will be inactive after Game Four.

Is Butler a top special team like Cole. You seem to think that Butler is and will be our 5th CB and a top special teamer (and therefore active). Would you have Ryan inactive? It is not even clear that we would need 5 corners active, depending on Game Plan.

Let's say that Dennard beats out Ryan for the backup/#4 position. Then either Arrington or Ryan is the nickel, with other being useless.

My BOTTOM LINE is that if Butler is our Cole, our 5th receiver, dime back and top special teamer, it means that someone else is inactive after Game Four and essentially of little value.

PLEASE CLARIFY if you think that there is really room for SIX corners on the 53 man roster (after four games).

In regards to Ryan/Arrington playing some safety, this was addressed by Belichick last week after the game when he explained that it was more of dealing with PHI's 3 and 4 receiving options (with TE), rather than something we'd be seeing in traditional 2 safety looks. I posted the interview quotes from Belichick in another thread, but don't remember which one.

The truth is we've seen one, maybe one and a half practice(s) this year all through OTAs, mini-camps, and the whole training camp session where Logan Ryan has played at safety. I don't have a crystal ball, but if we were going to see a permanent, full-time move there, wouldn't he have been playing a lot more in terms of getting acclimated to a whole new position? The good thing is that we can use him there to help defend the high-passing attacks of DEN, DET, GB, etc--so just like last year, I'd expect him there at certain times.

I think when players such as Butler tend to come out of nowhere it gives everyone their own idea as to how to best utilize them. That's what is so great about this forum. My opinion is that he's going to make the team as the depth option/ST replacement to Marquise Cole, see some looks when our regular starters get injured at times, and be an option for the future as well. We'll have to see him it all plays out. The future of Kyle Arrington may be coming to an end one way or another, but I'm guessing that's next season.

In regards to Ryan/Arrington playing some safety, this was addressed by Belichick last week after the game when he explained that it was more of dealing with PHI's 3 and 4 receiving options (with TE), rather than something we'd be seeing in traditional 2 safety looks. I posted the interview quotes from Belichick in another thread, but don't remember which one.

The truth is we've seen one, maybe one and a half practice(s) this year all through OTAs, mini-camps, and the whole training camp session where Logan Ryan has played at safety. I don't have a crystal ball, but if we were going to see a permanent, full-time move there, wouldn't he have been playing a lot more in terms of getting acclimated to a whole new position? The good thing is that we can use him there to help defend the high-passing attacks of DEN, DET, GB, etc--so just like last year, I'd expect him there at certain times.

I think when players such as Butler tend to come out of nowhere it gives everyone their own idea as to how to best utilize them. That's what is so great about this forum. My opinion is that he's going to make the team as the depth option/ST replacement to Marquise Cole, see some looks when our regular starters get injured at times, and be an option for the future as well. We'll have to see him it all plays out. The future of Kyle Arrington may be coming to an end one way or another, but I'm guessing that's next season.

 

[Ring 6]

Who is a better nickel than Arrington?

But let's play, keeping Arrington at nickel.

We have awful safeties after McCourty, so let us presume that we make Ryan a starting safety, or at least part of a rotation with Harmon. So, IMHO, we have improved the team at safety.

Le's look at our corners for Game One, presuming everyone is ready to play
Starters: Revis, Dennard or Butler
nickel: Arrington
dime backup: Dennard: or Butler (our Dime could be Ryan)

I'm fine with this, but I would note that we have a core of 7 defensive backs, with no quality backups (none at corner; Chung, Wilson and Ebner at safety. Some would argue that having Chung or Wilson as your #8 isn't terrible. I would tend to agree. But there is certainly no 'extra" players to trade.

But sure, If everyone is healthy after Game 5, I suppose that we would have an "extra" defensive back available.

You have Butler ahead of Ryan and maybe starting?

As far as safety, I think the use of Ryan or Arrington there is limited to playing 3 corners and 1 safety where they will be covering a WR.
Sort of a cross between base and nickel that BB seems to have created.

 

[mgteich]

You have Butler ahead of Ryan and maybe starting?

As far as safety, I think the use of Ryan or Arrington there is limited to playing 3 corners and 1 safety where they will be covering a WR.
Sort of a cross between base and nickel that BB seems to have created.

I am continuing the conversation, and exploring. I simply pointed out that if Ryan is regularly one our 3 safeties, then we are left with Dennard and Butler as our #2 and #4 CB's in either order. And yes, I expect a healthy Dennard to easily start Game One over Butler.

With regard to paling 3 corners and 1 safety, I find this as semantics. But sure, I'm fine with playing only 1 safety at times, given the poor quality of our safeties.

IN ANY CASE, the issue is the logjam after Game Four.

QUESTIONS
Do we really have any use for 6 corners on the roster? Wouldn't one or two be inactive in almost every game?

Is Chung or Wilson a better #3 safety than Ryan or Arrington?

MY POSITION
Our best defensive backs are Revis, Browner, Dennard, Arrington, Ryan, McCourty and Harmon. Butler is probably the 8th, and a clear roster player for 4 weeks. It is even OK for to carry a developmental rookie, who will always be inactive. In any case, I question whether our best #2, #3 and #4 safeties have the label of "safety" on our rosters. Perhaps one of these safety "positions/roles" is better performed by a corner.

I suppose the open question is whether we are counting on Harmon/Wilson/Chung, with Ebner as the STer. For me, the issue is not at corner; the issue is at safety.

 

[Ring 6]

I am continuing the conversation, and exploring. I simply pointed out that if Ryan is regularly one our 3 safeties, then we are left with Dennard and Butler as our #2 and #4 CB's in either order. And yes, I expect a healthy Dennard to easily start Game One over Butler.

With regard to paling 3 corners and 1 safety, I find this as semantics. But sure, I'm fine with playing only 1 safety at times, given the poor quality of our safeties.

IN ANY CASE, the issue is the logjam after Game Four.

QUESTIONS
Do we really have any use for 6 corners on the roster? Wouldn't one or two be inactive in almost every game?

Is Chung or Wilson a better #3 safety than Ryan or Arrington?

MY POSITION
Our best defensive backs are Revis, Browner, Dennard, Arrington, Ryan, McCourty and Harmon. Butler is probably the 8th, and a clear roster player for 4 weeks. It is even OK for to carry a developmental rookie, who will always be inactive. In any case, I question whether our best #2, #3 and #4 safeties have the label of "safety" on our rosters. Perhaps one of these safety "positions/roles" is better performed by a corner.

I suppose the open question is whether we are counting on Harmon/Wilson/Chung, with Ebner as the STer. For me, the issue is not at corner; the issue is at safety.

I don't think the corners are being converted to safety. I expect vs SOME opponents we will see 3 corners and 1 safety or 4 corners and 1 safety.
I don't think if Ryan is the guy who replaces the safety in that scheme that you would therefore not count him as a corner.
My guess as of now is that with Arrington likely being the nickel specialist, the corner position depth chart looks like this:
Revis
Browner
Dennard
Ryan
Butler

As stated Arrington seems like a 'starter' at nickel corner but not a guy who will play outside. (This is a common belief among posters, but we do not have the BB stamp on that reasoning yet)
So, lets look at pre-Browner.

Ryan will both be competing with Dennard to 'start' and also be the 3rd corner (exclusive of Arringtons role) whether that is as a replacement/backup for Dennard or as the 3rd corner who comes on in lieu of a safety.

 

[mgteich]

I am fine with all that you posted.

After Game Four, do you expect us to carry 6 corners (5 plus Arrington)?

How many do you expect to be "normally" active?

I don't think the corners are being converted to safety. I expect vs SOME opponents we will see 3 corners and 1 safety or 4 corners and 1 safety.
I don't think if Ryan is the guy who replaces the safety in that scheme that you would therefore not count him as a corner.
My guess as of now is that with Arrington likely being the nickel specialist, the corner position depth chart looks like this:
Revis
Browner
Dennard
Ryan
Butler

As stated Arrington seems like a 'starter' at nickel corner but not a guy who will play outside. (This is a common belief among posters, but we do not have the BB stamp on that reasoning yet)
So, lets look at pre-Browner.

Ryan will both be competing with Dennard to 'start' and also be the 3rd corner (exclusive of Arringtons role) whether that is as a replacement/backup for Dennard or as the 3rd corner who comes on in lieu of a safety.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

MY POSITION
Our best defensive backs are Revis, Browner, Dennard, Arrington, Ryan, McCourty and Harmon. Butler is probably the 8th, and a clear roster player for 4 weeks. It is even OK for to carry a developmental rookie, who will always be inactive. In any case, I question whether our best #2, #3 and #4 safeties have the label of "safety" on our rosters. Perhaps one of these safety "positions/roles" is better performed by a corner.

Our active 46 includes 6 DB plus sufficient backups, who probably play ST. The DB who are solid ST players are Ryan, Arrington, Chung, Wilson, Ebner, and Davis. Not all of them will be on the roster, but I think we have to expect that at least one, more likely two of Chung, Wilson, Ebner, and Davis will be on the game day roster. That doesn't leave a lot of room for Butler as a 5th active CB. He needs to outperform Dennard, Arrington or Ryan or he will be a developmental rookie at risk for losing his job come week 5.

 

[mgteich]

I agree

I think that a likely active roster might include these EIGHT ACTIVE DB'S

THE FIRST SIX: Revis, Browner, Arrington (slot), McCourty, Harmon, Ryan (backup, dime and ST's)
ADDITIONAL SPECIAL TEAMERS (2): 2 safeties who are special teamers (as you said)

In this scenario, Dennard may not be active, if he doesn't start (as is often the case for 5th CB). Dennard could be active instead of Ryan, but with a downgrade of special teams. We could activate nine defensive backs (one high I think, but an OK choice against certain teams).

IMHO, Butler would need to pass 2 players in the depth chart to be active.

 

[Danger Zone]

I am just as happy as fellow fans..but let's calm expectations here a bit and wait until he can face some big time guys out there.

Why?

Why does it bother people so much when other fans show hope and excitement even if it is a bit premature?

I kind of imagine you guys watching Rudy and rather than tearing up at the end you just lean back in your chair and boggle "Whats with all the hype over a couple garbage time plays?"



EDIT: Just light-hearted ribbing.

 

[dales804]

Why?

Why does it bother people so much when other fans show hope and excitement even if it is a bit premature?

I kind of imagine you guys watching Rudy and rather than tearing up at the end you just lean back in your chair and boggle "Whats with all the hype over a couple garbage time plays?"



EDIT: Just light-hearted ribbing.

 

[patsfan13]

Wihhe number of imes we see he PAts in dime packages I could see 9 active db's onm game da we ma see a fair amount of Butler even without aninjuries in the D backfield.

Becaus of the variety of skill sets BB will have a lot of flexibiliy on game plan sepcific alignmens. Browner on a J Graham Thomas type TE as opposed to him playing on the outside. That was something we didn't have as much of last years so we saw for example Talib on S Smith which wasn't a good matchup for him. With Revis and Butler in the mix (think of Browner being a lot like Talib in terms of the types os WR's he matches up the best with).being added to the mix the coaches ability to create favorable matchups is much better.