Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by KontradictioN, Jan 23, 2012.
NFL.com news: Patriots have become the tough-minded team Belichick desired
Thanks for this KontradictioN, I have been trying to eloquently put what I have been seeing in words but have not been able to do so. Lombardi has done it brilliantly for me. Just watching the 09 season, you could just see how he wanted to gut that team. He saw them as mentally weak in a lot of areas. No fight at all. I bet BB gave him a lot of insight into that article. Very nicely written I think.
In fact I think last year's team might have lost the game yesterday.
He's absolutely right too. The 2009 team would have folded after those turnovers. They might not be the most talented team and have some glaring flaws, but there's no question that they're mentally tough.
Definitely a good read, thanks for posting.
Some people here may not like him, but I really enjoy Lombardi's work. He's on Bill Simmons' podcast quite a bit, and while there he makes his admiration for Belichick and the Pats very clear (he worked in the Browns' front office when Belichick was there).
Thank you for posting this, Kontra.
Yet we had some here bemoaning the cutting of the soft players because they were drafted in high rounds.
And now we probably have a clear cut explanation for all those head scratching personnel moves over the last two years.
They just weren't tough enough. Does anyone really think that some of those released DBs would have made that same "extra" effort to punch that sure TD?
I know for sure that the party starter would not.
Lombardi is like one of the few people in the media who strikes me as pro-Patriot
Lombardi's one of the very few who gets it when it comes to the Pats and especially BB. He nailed this one, his take on the D is right too. Awesome stuff thanks Kontra:rocker:
This defense, as imperfect as it may be, has been the most physical that I can remember in awhile. It's good to see it back
The 2009 New England Patriots defense was also getting old:
Ty Warren, 2003 NFL Draft
Vince Wilfork, 2004 NFL Draft
Jarvis Green, 2002 NFL Draft
Junior Seau, 1990 NFL Draft
Adalius Thomas, 2000 NFL Draft
Derrick Burgess, 2001 NFL Draft
Tully Banta-Cain, 2003 NFL Draft
Shawn Springs, 1997 NFL Draft
Leigh Bodden, 2003 NFL Draft
In addition, Gary Guyton has always been a liability against the run.
I didn't like the safety moves and they had been badly hurting the defense all season until Devin McCourty was used at safety more often with Sterling Moore being used at CB. That's where the defense improved. McCourty definitely needs to play better, but Moore has surprised and made two of the biggest plays in the game (and, arguably, of the season) in succession yesterday. He's also more effective in the bump and run than McCourty was.
Its probably because he worked for BB back when BB was coaching the Browns. Lombardi was Pro Personnel Director
He's not just talking about the defense, either. For those who keep longing for a 2007 reunion tour...
Throughout 2009 Brady and when he took the podium as well Welker kept pounding one message, mental toughness and guys pushing through "whatever" their problem was. Be that disagreement with coaching or roles in schemes, contract and career concerns, off field or post career concerns, media perceptions, injuries, whatever...
The "Patriot Way" is about being able to compartmentalize your life and block out all the off field issues and just do your job as a football players, whatever that may be or you may be asked to make it be (coaching to scheme), in order to be ready, willing and able to perform to the best of your ability for the 6 months or so that this organization is paying you to be a focused football player. If you never had or simply lose the ability to do that over time, your time here is brief or over.
This is why the Haynesworth and Ocho experiments remain headscratchers. He wants guys who are willing to compete and even claw for their jobs whether that pits them against guys who are (perceived as) infinitely more or less talented than you and whether the team is seemingly rolling or battling through adversity. And he wants guys who will continue to compete even when by all appearances they have achieved or arrived at their personal goals. The cliches aren't cliches here. Cog in the wheel, strength of the wolf is in the pack, check your ego at the door, next man up...do YOUR job. You have to buy all in here or you don't fit the system regardless of talent.
A lot of fans and most mediots still struggle with the concept that what consistently wins championships are teams built and forged around unselfish driven football players of varying talent 1-53, determined to do whatever it takes to take advantage of any opportunities presented to them. Merely collecting or amassing showcase talent on one side of the ball or the other (because the cap limits ability to amass it across the board with any functional depth) is just an expensive exercise in fantasy football futility at worst and unreliable/unsustainable real world model at best do to the violent physical and mentally demanding nature of this game.
not at all.......BB has regularly taken other peoples problems and given them a chance to adhere.....
they were all deemed malcontents in their previous place of employment. the fact that ocho is still around is more likely a testament to the fac that when it has come to the clubhouse he has not been 'me first'. his season has been borderline humiliation for him and not a peep. he has helped, just not in a way that is obvious to others. his example to the younger players is likely that even though he's not doing what everyone thought he would be doin, that he is still helping with a positive attitude. he's likely helped the defense more than the offense this year.
your 'holier than thou' priciples are a little over the top, to be honest
What is back is a sense of pride.
McGinest says it all the time on NFL network. Belichick would take you into the meeting room and show you how you got beat. This is where Parcells and BB are very much alike in their coaching styles.
I think when you get you pride stepped on, you get embarassed.
In recent games, this defense is developing that sense of pride, sense of accountability. They are proud in their work. They are understanding it is their reputation on the line.
BB uses all of these things to try and motivate his players and they seem lately that they are finally starting to get the message.
Hope it continues...
Those players were not all malcontents and to a man they were hardnosed scrappers which Albert and Chad have never been known to be. Dillon shouldn't have been extended as he was basically one and done. Washington decided to be one and done. Smith was the classic overachieving jag. Cox was brought in to set a tone. Harrison was available because Schottenheimer miscalculated and created the perception he was physically washed up. Bill believed he wasn't and Rodney seized that opportunity and bought all in and helped this team overcome early adversity right out of the gate...
What Bill could get away with in the first half of the last decade because of the makeup of the core here and what he could get away with as it wound down were very different things. Absent most of his core of tough minded locker room leaders, a few of whom themselves bailed because of the desire to make a few more $$$ rather than grind for a shot at a few more rings, he was no longer in good position to manage problem children. Haynesworth and Ocho didn't cause problems because one got jetisoned before his stink permeated the locker room and the other is an entertainer who cares so much about perception he doesn't dare open his mouth against an organization including a HOF HC and QB that has had his expensive but unfortunately worthless to date (17 games and counting) back.
And I didn't say they were problems here, just that going that route again after 2009-10 was a headscratcher. Neither player is mentally tough or particularly driven to prove his critics wrong, although one had made a cottage industry out of talking about doing just that for most of his career. I'm sure Bill is relieved he was only half wrong about Ocho... he's toed the line just to no avail. Albert was quietly going through the motions of being Albert which even when it paid occasional dividends on the field wasn't an example worth retaining at minimal dead cap. Chad would have to pull the pin on a grenade to be worth dumping be cause of his dead cap situation.
LOL........the world according to Mo....paint the picture you want to pain rather than what is
washington found his way out of niner land because he was a trouble-maker there. then he lasted one year in denver. he signed a nice deal with the bills, but even as a probowler, the bills cut him.....what does that say? with the bears, he was a probowler again, but they wound up giving him away....sure he broke his leg, but he was still a probowler.
the bills parted with smith because he didn't seem to care and didn't always put his best effort in.
cox walks around flipping fans off
harrison cause dtrouble with schottenheimer, and was cut more because of money and his relationship with his coach rather than anything else.
and then theres moss......another malcontent.
indeed, they were all malcontents. and no, ocho is not lazy.....he's as hard a working WR as any.
your bias clouds your vision....fact is, BB always takes chances on malcontents ..... but to you they've become head-scratchers.......as though you know something they don't
Great article except for the reality that BB brought in players like Haynesworth and Nocatcho....two of the least tough players to come through Foxborough. BB has hickies on his ass from this fluff piece
Care to remind us of the other free agent acquisitions he made? And what has Ochocinco done to suggest he's lazy or 'soft' or anything? He's having trouble grasping the playbook and his role in our offensive system. That doesn't indicate he isn't mentally tough, come on.
Or bemoaning the drafting of soft players in high rounds.
Always on board with "the best player wins, regardless of draft position", but when the lower-drafted/UDFA player is winning out consistently, then that suggests a flaw in draft philosophy. Not a fatal flaw, obviously, but something to take note of, sure.
Disagree on Ocho. Ocho has always run his mouth but it was almost always in good fun, he's not a malcontent and this season more than proves it as he has barely seen the field but is regarded by everyone as a really hard worker, and he has kept quiet and never complained. That's putting the team first and fits Belichik's description of toughness perfectly. He isn't a guy who has consistently missed games and he loves football. I don't think Ocho should come back next year because he looks to be done as a player, but i wouldn't knock him as he has done what they asked it just didn't work out.
Belichik regularly takes flyers on players and some work out and some don't. He also cuts bait with them quickly when they show they don't fit here and aren't productive.
I lived in Cincy 1998-2001.
The same was said about Dillon.
The reality is all of these "malcontents" had proven skills worthy of a try. If they work, it's great, If it doesn't, they go.
It's as simple as that. Ditto for the draft.
I would be more worried if there were no players ever jettisoned.
That's too risk adverse.
The other point is that the core players of the dynasty cut their teeth in the 90's. Anyone care to rehash 1999?
How about a different perspective?
In 2009/10, the Patriots rebuilt almost the entire team, made the playoffs with the franchise QB coming off ACL and went 14-2 with half the snaps taken by rookies/second year players.
The following year they are in the Super Bowl.....and have four picks in the first two rounds of the draft with plenty of cap space.
That's a monumental achievement. It's actually more impressive than winning a Super Bowl. Somebody wins that every year.
Think the two competitive AFC franchises in Indy and Pittsburgh are in better shape?
BB brought in Haynesworth and then cut his ass when he didn't get with the program enough. BB's made a lot of mistakes in recent years, and the trade for Haynesworth is one of them, but the way he cut his ass may very well have brought that team together in a way that other moves hadn't.
It's certainly not hurt the team's record.
You can't have it both ways, though. If BB's cutting high picks because they are soft, what the hell's he doing drafting them in the first place?
Sorry, but bemoaning the move, be it the pick or the cut, is well within bounds, IMO.
Maybe we should get a collection going for a night out.
We have a regular here that would be a perfect match for Steve in Fall River.
you'd be a losy GM if you wouldn't have given Haynesworth a shot the way the pats did.......when it became obvious that the 'contract year' attitude could not be brought back, he was gone. he didn't cost the pats a thing.
Since Haynesworth was waived by the Pats and signed by the Buccaneers:
Patriots: 10-0, average score 35.9-18.8
Buccaneers: 0-8, average score 17.5-40.6
I know it's not all on Haynesworth, but
We all bemoan the mistakes, whether we do it here in public, or in private, or merely in the back of our minds. How can you not? The team has repeatedly spent high draft picks on DBs, for example, and missed. The names come to mind with no effort at all -- Meriweather, Butler, Wilhite, Wheatley, etc. etc.
But one of BB's strengths is a willingness to cut a guy, no matter where he was drafted, and move on. Not all teams admit their mistakes so readily. Not all teams are willing to take the inevitable criticism. The Patriots admit their mistakes and move on, realizing that keeping the guy only COMPOUNDS the mistake.
But yeah, we're going to have to spend more draft picks, high picks, on DBs and hope some of them actually hit.
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