Light 'received a fair offer which he refused'

[mgteich]

Many players have been allowed, even encouraged, to shop around and then come back to the patriots TO NEGOTIATE. It is NOT true that the patriots have a no-negotiation, take-it-or-leave-it attitude toward all their players. All teams have an acceptable RANGE of what they are willing to pay an individual player. And, YES, it is indeed reasonable to beleive that the patriots would change their offer to a player after the player comes to them with market information and the willingness to negotiate.

Of course, the patriots don't "bargain again other teams", whatever that means. The patriots determine a range of value and negotiate the a player's agent.

My take on an imaginary Patriots negotiation.

"Detroit is offering me 2 million more."

"Good luck, I hear Detroit is lovely in September."

The point being, the Patriots don't bargain against other teams. Of course it increases a players leverage, but they bargain with players that want to be here, that have good value for the franchise, then see if they can afford to sign them.

It's an important distinction.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Many players have been allowed, even encouraged, to shop around and then come back to the patriots TO NEGOTIATE. It is NOT true that the patriots have a no-negotiation, take-it-or-leave-it attitude toward all their players. All teams have an acceptable RANGE of what they are willing to pay an individual player. And, YES, it is indeed reasonable to beleive that the patriots would change their offer to a player after the player comes to them with market information and the willingness to negotiate.

Of course, the patriots don't "bargain again other teams", whatever that means. The patriots determine a range of value and negotiate the a player's agent.

Somewhere between what you assume and what Ray assumes lies the truth. The Patriots have on occasion played the see what you can get card. But the players they took that route with either signed here for what was already offered or signed elsewhere for more. That is because the team is pretty secure in it's valuation. It really is a nearly take it or leave it proposition. I know some claim this team low balls players. The team claims otherwise. In fact they tend not to play games period often leading with their best offer. Even in Moss' case after finding a higher priced suitor he essentially had to make the decision to take what he was being offered here. It's a test, as are many things with Bill...

 

[RayClay]

Somewhere between what you assume and what Ray assumes lies the truth. The Patriots have on occasion played the see what you can get card. But the players they took that route with either signed here for what was already offered or signed elsewhere for more. That is because the team is pretty secure in it's valuation. It really is a nearly take it or leave it proposition. I know some claim this team low balls players. The team claims otherwise. In fact they tend not to play games period often leading with their best offer. Even in Moss' case after finding a higher priced suitor he essentially had to make the decision to take what he was being offered here. It's a test, as are many things with Bill...

I was kidding to make a point. Of course the Patriots assess what other teams would pay. However, the most important factor is how much they value the player and what it would cost, if anything, to replace him.

A Brady or a first big contract Seymour, they will have to bargain, because they can't replace them. Most other players they can, if they ask too much.

It's not that every player has to be a loyal puppy willing to play for nothing, but if it's all about the Benjamins, that player is suspect in more ways than one. In other words, it's less about money than attitude.

 

[strngplyr]

My take on an imaginary Patriots negotiation.

"Detroit is offering me 2 million more."

"Good luck, I hear Detroit is lovely in September."

The point being, the Patriots don't bargain against other teams. Of course it increases a players leverage, but they bargain with players that want to be here, that have good value for the franchise, then see if they can afford to sign them.

It's an important distinction.

I could see this happening. I don't think the organization cares too much about player leverage because I think they only want players who truly WANT to play here. Mankins being the exception but he was still under contract and held out.

 

[mgteich]

Your position agrees with many here. This position holds that the patriots shouldn't want to sign any player who is not willing to get less compensation from the patriots than they could get from other teams. Put another way, because the team is so great, any player worth having should be willing to give the patriots a discount for the privildege of playing for the patriots. And yes, sometimes situations force the team to make exceptiosn for some top players who are allowed to play without giving the desired discount.

Others of us reject the position above. We understannd that some players will give a discount to the patriots, some will give discounts to other teams. After all, some folks actually want to live Cleveland or Boston, or play for certain teams. HOWEVER, we do not accept that the patriots should only sign those who give us a discount. Sometimes, the patriots have to pay what the market charges, sometimes more. And sometimes, the team will play less, and even the discount is not enough. The team does not ask for a pound of flesh in the form of a discount. What we do know is that the patriots will make good decisions FOR THE PATRIOTS. It would not be good management for the patriots to restrict themselves to players who would give us a discount.

I could see this happening. I don't think the organization cares too much about player leverage because I think they only want players who truly WANT to play here. Mankins being the exception but he was still under contract and held out.

 

[strngplyr]

Your position agrees with many here. This position holds that the patriots shouldn't want to sign any player who is not willing to get less compensation from the patriots than they could get from other teams. Put another way, because the team is so great, any player worth having should be willing to give the patriots a discount for the privildege of playing for the patriots. And yes, sometimes situations force the team to make exceptiosn for some top players who are allowed to play without giving the desired discount.

Others of us reject the position above. We understannd that some players will give a discount to the patriots, some will give discounts to other teams. After all, some folks actually want to live Cleveland or Boston, or play for certain teams. HOWEVER, we do not accept that the patriots should only sign those who give us a discount. Sometimes, the patriots have to pay what the market charges, sometimes more. And sometimes, the team will play less, and even the discount is not enough. The team does not ask for a pound of flesh in the form of a discount. What we do know is that the patriots will make good decisions FOR THE PATRIOTS. It would not be good management for the patriots to restrict themselves to players who would give us a discount.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying the team doesn't, never will, never has paid players. And I don't expect everyone to play for a discount, certainly not. But if the team has a choice between a LT who will probably be overpaid considering his age and supposed declining ability when we have a OT drafted at 17 and a RT who has played spectacularly (and started his pro career filling in at LT), then I don't think the organization will lose any sleep over a player chasing money towards the end of his career.

I would much rather let Light go get his paycheck, put Vollmer at LT, Solder or someone else at RT, and sign Mankins with the money saved on cheaper players who can do Light's job (assuming Solder can get it done at LT or RT, obviously he hasn't proven anything but he's got a great group of guys to work with, Dante makes some unknowns look pro ready on game-day if the player is willing to cooperate).

 

[supafly]

I would much rather let Light go get his paycheck, put Vollmer at LT, Solder or someone else at RT, and sign Mankins

I guess Belichick has mentioned something about Solder NOT playing at RT, but I have yet to see a link or quote, so don't take that as gospel. Other posters have mentioned it though.

Nope, this is about rookie Solder playing LT only--and protecting the blindside of the franchise.

Day One--sink or swim, throw him into the fire and let's see what happens.

If the reasoning is due to Belichick and Dante making the choice, then great, but many posters seem to use the "it's happened in the past," or "he was the first rd pick" excuse a bit too much. This should be a choice based on his ability to coincide with the rest of the line, his overall talent level, his willingness to learn and not repeat mistakes, and what the front office deems fit for the best choice of the NEP.

This debate could go on forever, but I have a bit more of a conservative approach seeing as how we aren't talking about starting a rookie at CB, or DE. We're not giving pros/cons for Taylor Price to start over _____ player X last yr. We are talking about the protection of our biggest asset, and basically the whole season should something go wrong. That is certainly one of the reasons why I believe some added caution should be considered, and I fully expect it to be.

Solder will play, and he should play early on--but I don't know if it'll be on the very first snap of the season either? To be honest, I don't think anyone knows the answer to that right now.

 

[ay-yo]

Even if we don't resign Light we're not forced to start Solder. Kazcur could start until Solder is ready. This factors into my belief that we won't resign Light. Kazcur isn't at Light's level but he is cheaper and won't get Brady killed.

 

[supafly]

Even if we don't resign Light we're not forced to start Solder. Kazcur could start until Solder is ready. This factors into my belief that we won't resign Light. Kazcur isn't at Light's level but he is cheaper and won't get Brady killed.

There are certainly other options available, you mention one of them. I don't really think that will be the most popular/viable option, but anything's possible I suppose?

This decision won't be figured out until well into TC, so we are just keeping ourselves busy by discussing it right now. I seriously doubt that Belichick has any idea of who will be there at this stage. It's going to depend on some variables, and how Solder looks etc.

 

[SanAngeloState]

Even if we don't resign Light we're not forced to start Solder. Kazcur could start until Solder is ready. This factors into my belief that we won't resign Light. Kazcur isn't at Light's level but he is cheaper and won't get Brady killed.

You are entirely correct. Light just isn't that good. His best bet, if he were to stay here, is to play guard. I think he could handle that.

 

[strngplyr]

There are certainly other options available, you mention one of them. I don't really think that will be the most popular/viable option, but anything's possible I suppose?

This decision won't be figured out until well into TC, so we are just keeping ourselves busy by discussing it right now. I seriously doubt that Belichick has any idea of who will be there at this stage. It's going to depend on some variables, and how Solder looks etc.

I don't have a problem with Kaczur picking back up at RT and have Vollmer at LT. I just think it is hard to imagine Light back, and it DOES all depend on how ready Solder is. I don't like the idea of a rookie at LT any more than the rest of you and would like to see Vollmer there until Solder has a few NFL games under his belt and proves he can handle the pro's.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Amidst all this talk, the Pats should have about 18-20M free in the cap after the lockout. Would be very interesting if Light doesn't re-sign and the Pats go into the year with a ton of free cap money and a rookie starting left tackle.

 

[supafly]

Amidst all this talk, the Pats should have about 18-20M free in the cap after the lockout. Would be very interesting if Light doesn't re-sign and the Pats go into the year with a ton of free cap money and a rookie starting left tackle.

To be fair, those numbers are highly debatable right now. Many have the Pats at about 8-10 million under at most--obviously including the Mankins franchise tag number. That also does not include any unsigned FA's of our own, or any rookies.

Yes, I agree that we are in better shape than a lot of teams, and that some more money could be freed up, but I do not agree that they are "18-20 million under."

This situation is not as relevant as you'd think to the possible signing of Light anyway, as they will not get into a bidding war for him. Most of us think that he is good as gone, and that there are plenty of other teams who will offer him much more than the Pats will.

 

[supafly]

I don't have a problem with Kaczur picking back up at RT and have Vollmer at LT. I just think it is hard to imagine Light back, and it DOES all depend on how ready Solder is. I don't like the idea of a rookie at LT any more than the rest of you and would like to see Vollmer there until Solder has a few NFL games under his belt and proves he can handle the pro's.

I agree that I don't see Light back either. I would feel much better with Vollmer at LT, with either Kaczur or LeVoir taking over at RT.

However, you'd be surprised about your comment that is highlighted, as it seems as though we are in the minority after reading through the thread.

I absolutely could not agree more with you that I see no major reason or pressure to start him day one, and think that he will be blended in after 4-6 games. Most do not agree though. It is my opinion that he will be learning more through practices, film study, team meetings, and coaching up from BB and Dante--but I would still be leery of him starting the first snap of the season. That is due to our other options with more experience, and the importance of the position itself, rather than a knock on Solder's talent or skills. I absolutely love the pick in the big picture.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that I don't see Light back either. I would feel much better with Vollmer at LT, with either Kaczur or LeVoir taking over at RT.

However, you'd be surprised about your comment that is highlighted, as it seems as though we are in the minority after reading through the thread.

I absolutely could not agree more with you that I see no major reason or pressure to start him day one, and think that he will be blended in after 4-6 games. Most do not agree though. It is my opinion that he will be learning more through practices, film study, team meetings, and coaching up from BB and Dante--but I would still be leery of him starting the first snap of the season. That is due to our other options with more experience, and the importance of the position itself, rather than a knock on Solder's talent or skills. I absolutely love the pick in the big picture.

The reason is if he gives us the best chance to win.
As fans we see if from the perspective of gambling whether he will be ready or not with no real way to know.
BB will know. Training camp and preseason games, on top of the predraft evaluation (and no doubt more extensive film study after he was drafted) will make this an easy decision for BB. This thread makes it seem like its a philosophical one. It won't be philosophical it will be a heavily analyzed assessment of whether he is ready or not.

 

[mgteich]

So how does Light coming back depend on Solder's readiness, which won't be known until late in camp? It seems that if Light stays, Kaczur will go. As you said, we have two starters in Vollmer and Kaczur. Plus we have Solder. If Solder is ready, Kaczur will be the backup.

It is Light and Kaczur whose futures are dependent on each other, not Light and Solder.

The bad contingency is if
1) Light goes,
2) Kaczur is not up to where he was because of his injuries, and
3) Solder is not ready

Even in this extreme case, Belichick would simply to need to sign a free agent RT or use LeVoir.

I don't have a problem with Kaczur picking back up at RT and have Vollmer at LT. I just think it is hard to imagine Light back, and it DOES all depend on how ready Solder is. I don't like the idea of a rookie at LT any more than the rest of you and would like to see Vollmer there until Solder has a few NFL games under his belt and proves he can handle the pro's.

 

[Ring 6]

So how does Light coming back depend on Solder's readiness, which won't be known until late in camp? It seems that if Light stays, Kaczur will go. As you said, we have two starters in Vollmer and Kaczur. Plus we have Solder. If Solder is ready, Kaczur will be the backup.

It is Light and Kaczur whose futures are dependent on each other, not Light and Solder.

The bad contingency is if
1) Light goes,
2) Kaczur is not up to where he was because of his injuries, and
3) Solder is not ready

Even in this extreme case, Belichick would simply to need to sign a free agent RT or use LeVoir.

I'd prefer to see Vollmer stay put on the right side.

 

[TheSolderKing]

Vollmer is safety net for LT if by some very ODD reason Solder can't handle the job right away.:rocker:

 

[mgteich]

We are considering what happens if Light is not re-signed and Solder is not ready.

Are you saying that you believe that Kaczur (LT) and Vollmer (RT) is stronger than Vollmer (LT) and Kaczur (RT). It has been a long time since Kaczur has started at LT. I would certainly be fine if dante believed that. It would mean tha Kaczur was still a considerable asset, as a starter at OT or OG, or as a backup. It is great to have a 6th starter.

I'd prefer to see Vollmer stay put on the right side.

 

[Patspsycho]

We are considering what happens if Light is not re-signed and Solder is not ready.

Are you saying that you believe that Kaczur (LT) and Vollmer (RT) is stronger than Vollmer (LT) and Kaczur (RT). It has been a long time since Kaczur has started at LT. I would certainly be fine if dante believed that. It would mean tha Kaczur was still a considerable asset, as a starter at OT or OG, or as a backup. It is great to have a 6th starter.

No way in hell is Kaczur ever going to put in one down as LT.