Lets talk defensive schemes

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by pheenix11, Feb 6, 2007.

  1. pheenix11

    pheenix11 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    I have been thinking about the different defensive schemes lately and I really don't buy into this Tampa 2 hype. I think it is way too laid back. I like the Pats 3-4 scheme, I like to see a lot of blitzing and an aggressive attacking defense.

    Everyone seems so terrified of letting CB's play one on one these days, everyone needs help. Maybe I'm old school but I remember the good old days like when the Raiders played the Redskins in 83. They had Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes out on an island with those superstar Redskin WR's and shut them down.

    What has happened over the years that every CB needs help from the safeties? In my mind they should be playing the run or knocking the **** out of slot receivers and TE's coming over the middle not playing deep centerfield.

    I'd like to see someone bring back the 46 defense as well.
  2. unoriginal

    unoriginal In the Starting Line-Up

    46 defense is too run oriented. It puts the Sam and Will linebackers in poor position for pass coverage. Consider the play Colvin made against San Diego. Impossible if he was lined up at Sam in the 46. It also sucks the safety into the box, and if you combine that with the athletic ability of tight ends nowadays - athletic tight ends are common, there's not just one Kellen Winslow - its a nonstarter.

    Safeties are no longer allowed to knock slot receivers and tight ends around. Rule emphasis. Consequently receivers get into routes faster and get deeper in less time, meaning the pass rush has less time to get there, meaning the outside corners can't play man-on-man and expect to defend a reasonable percentage of passes.

    Tampa 2 gets the maxinum numbers of people back in coverage, and gets them deep, hoping either the offense makes a mistake or the defensive line gets there. Tampa 2 makes the offense compose drives; if their offense can stay on the field and keep the defense fresh and flying around, chances are a Tampa 2 defense will stop most drives at some point before points are scored. Turnovers help. Most succesful Tampa 2 players are ballhawks.
  3. Tampa 2, Cover 2, or umbrella defense are some of the names of the defense that Tony Dungy invented. The system is flawed and can easily be picked apart as shown by Peyton Manning on Sunday and by Tom Brady in the AFCCG. It is designed to take away the big play and makes average corners look good because of consistant safety help. The scheme of the Tampa 2 makes vunerable to the run as well. They hardly ever bltiz and rely heavily on their front 4 to generate pressure on the opposing QB. However, Dungy had way more talent in Tampa then he does with Indy on defense. Dungy says that his defense or any defense starts with the defensive tackles, or "building from the ground up". In my opinion, the Tampa 2 is not a defense I would run as a head coach.

    As we know, the Pats run a 3-4, but their scheme is boring. Their philosophy used is the "bend but don't break", which I think is because of the lack of talent in the seconday and linebacker. They don't blitz often and when they do, their LB's have a hard time getting to the QB. This is probably do to the lack of speed at LB. It's seems like they play similar to a cover 2 in the secondary because their safeties are helping their corners a lot.

    The team that runs the 3-4 the best is the Pittsburgh Steelers. Dick Labaeu really brought back the term "blitzburgh" and I'm sure it's difficult for any team to pick up their scheme. They blitz from all angles and yards come tough against this unit. They had the perfect game plan against Manning in the divisional round in '05.

    The defense that every team should take a look at is the Baltimore Ravens. They run the 4-3, 4-6 and 3-4! This is a defense that generates hell for opposing QB's, takes the ball away a lot and scores. I watched some of their games this year and their formations are confusing as hell. You don't know who is rushing the passer, they all just stand or walk around until the opposing offense is getting ready to set. I really like their style. However, the are loaded with talent at every position so that explains why they are so good. I give Rex Ryan some credit too, whatever he did, he's doing it right. In fact, their defense played great against Manning, holding the Colts to 15 points. It's a shame that Baltimore's offense is pathetic and couldn't score more than 15 points.
  4. pheenix11

    pheenix11 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    If the 2 CB's cover the 2 WR's and the 2 Safeties cover the TE and Slot Receiver in tight man coverage that still leaves 1 LB to watch the RB out of the backfield and 3 DL & 3 LB's to rush. So you have 6 pass rushers vs 5 OL. 1 guy has to be coming in relatively untouched every play. Actually 2 if the LB watching the RB comes in if he sees him staying in the backfield.

    I don't see why more teams don't do what the Steelers & Ravens do and just blitz the hell out out of opposing QB's.

    You can still chuck the receivers in the first 5 years right? So isn't that enough to slow them down so that free LB can get in there and get to the QB before he can get the ball out?

    I know you have increased chances of a good WR beating a CB with a quick move and making a big play but it just seems like a better idea than a dying slow death of underneath passes.

    Guys like Manning will pick you apart either slowly or all at once. Just seems like pressure is the way to go.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2007
  5. unoriginal

    unoriginal In the Starting Line-Up

    Pressure is the way to go if you can get it.

    However, good quarterback/center combinations like Manning/Saturday or Brady/Koppen, which can recognize and adjust the scheme towards pressure, can pretty well nullify blitzes. If they keep 7 out of 10 players in for blitz pickup, the defense would have to send 8 people to overload the protection. As you put more people in the same space (the pocket) it gets harder and harder for a defender to get free.

    With 8 people applying pressure, you'll often see two blitzers bump into each other and pile up at some offensive tackle's feet. Either that or its a delayed blitz from either way outside, or up the middle after complimentary twists and stunts by the defensive line, but that takes time and meanwhile there's a very good chance that at least one of the three eligable receivers has beaten his man.
  6. The_Dragon

    The_Dragon Practice Squad Player

    Good topic - very interesting. My two cents for what it's worth...

    The Cover 2 is still weak against a successful power running game - because it puts it's focus on smaller, more athletic defensive players. It was one of the main reasons why the Steelers were so successful against the Colts in last years playoffs.

    It's built to not give up the big play but a patient, powerful offense will have success against, mainly running the ball. The Colts were better in the playoffs defending the run - to a degree, I wouldn't go overboard on it - but they did face 2 unbalanced offenses in KC and Baltimore that were more reliant on the run. This allowed the Colts to focus more on stopping the run. The Pats put up 31 points in the AFCCG.

    Regarding blitzing and not blitzing I suspect the ideal combination is a mixture of the two. Successfully blitzing a QB has it's own obvious benefits as well as allowing fake blitzes that have to be taken seriously.
  7. The_Dragon

    The_Dragon Practice Squad Player

    Regarding the Pats 3-4 is it correct to say that it's basic principle is to stop the run? Is this the first objective? I know this varies depending on opponents but the majority of the time I suspect it is.

    The Colts Cover 2 seems to me to not be so concerned with stopping the run and is more focused on not giving up big plays. Focus a team to have long drives to beat you - increasing the possibility of mistakes.
  8. The_Dragon

    The_Dragon Practice Squad Player

    Bump for more opinions/analysis.

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