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LB's and the 4-3


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CrazyDave

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I'm curious, is the 3-4 something BB put in just because he likes it? Or did the players he had to work with have something to do with it? Or both?
Is a switch to more 4-3 possible? Adding depth at interior DL above LB?
Just a thought.
 
I think the fact that we had loads of LB's at the time lead to the 3-4, but I think BB has always prefered the 3-4 anyways since you can give more exotic looks.
 
we actually have the personnell now to have a 4-3

de-jarvis green
dt-ty warren
dt-vince wilfork
de-big sey
olb-vrabel
olb-colvin
mlb-bruschi
 
re

The Pats have never been a straight 3-4 defense in the first place.

Some downs you see 3-4, all linebackers standing, other times you see 3-4, one or two linebackers in a down stance.

Finally, sometimes you see 4-3, with 4 linemen in there.

Other times, you see 3 lineman, and 6 defensive backs.

There isn't going to be a major change to any defensive system. The Patriots currently use every kind of formation and system already.

.
 
I prefer the 3-4 for us though..even with McGinest gone. Its a good formation that relies on LB blitzing and confuses offenses. We have good DL with Seymour Wilfork and Warren holding it down..all 1st rounders and our LBs are good. Bruschi is an important part of this because when he was gone..we played 4-3 at times because Beisel and Brown havent fully learned.
 
Bruschi would noot be good in a 4-3..other may not be as well...The team is geared for a 4-3 but there are all kinds of other looks...so it is 3-4 starting out and then..changes all the time depeending on situations.
 
and also doesnt the 3-4 rely on speed of the LBs?
 
Remix 6 said:
and also doesnt the 3-4 rely on speed of the LBs?

Other way around, really. With the 4-3, most of the pass rush will come from the defensive line, leaving the linebackers in coverage. They have to be smaller, faster, and quicker.

Also, the defensive line would need to be a bit smaller as well. The typical 3-technique tackle in the 4-3, as well as the speed-rushing end are guys in the 265-290 range.
 
Remix 6 said:
and also doesnt the 3-4 rely on speed of the LBs?

No, the Tampa-two defense relies on speed at LB.

The 3-4 relies upon versatility at LB.

A 4-3 linebacker can be light if he is fast.

A 3-4 linebacker has to be able to do three things well - rush the passer, string out and tackler the runner, and cover receivers - tight ends, wide receivers, or backs.

You will see plenty of plays where McGinest would drop into coverage on a slot guy, and someone else rushes. Vrabel as well. Remember the killer chuck he put on the tight end near the end of the St Louis Super Bowl?

Roman Phifer was a pass coverage specialist at ILB, usually covering tight ends but also backs and sometimes receivers. Ted Johnson was notable for dropping into coverage when quarterbacks threw over him - he was a bit more one-dimensional as a run-stuffer at ILB.

At the same time, a 3-4 OLB needs to be able to function as a DE, drop his hand, and explode into the backfield over the tight end. Then the ILB on his usually moves into an OLB role. Thus the value of a guy like Bruschi, who can play OLB, on the inside. Beisel is another guy who can play either position - not particularly well in the first eight games in the Belichick 3-4 - and can operate as an OLB when the OLB on his side switches to DE.

The nice thing about the 3-4 and picking up players is that you don't need the fastest linebackers. A guy like Ray Lewis at ILB wouldn't really work that well here. Cato June certainly wouldn't. The league values speed, so the Patriots are able to pick up versatile guys a little cheaper.

That said, the reason they haven't drafted many linebackers is that the college system doesn't generate many that fit the Patriots needs - big and versatile. This draft is very different, and has many linebackers or DE's that could fit their system.

Greenway, who many people are interested in, would likely transition into an ILB role in this system. Spencer Havner would as well. Mike Kudla, a college DE, would project to an ILB in this system.

There are at least eight college DE's who project to 3-4 DE's in the Patriots system, such as Lawson, Wimbley, Anderson, Guillory, Gocong, and so forth.

But, back to the original question, Belichick's system is based on versatility. He is a game-planner, and always has been. He spends the time breaking down tape to evaluate a team, and likes to take away what they most like to do. That requires changing the defense week to week.

Many coaches prefer to develop a system that simplifies the scheme for the players, so through repetition, coaching, and selection they become excellent at their specific role and technique. Miami under Wandstedt used this approach.

Belichick is the opposite. The three game series against Indy-Pittsburgh-Philly in playoffs last year demonstrated this. Against Indy, they played a deep zone, dropping everyone, and played a pounding ball-control offense. Against Pittsburgh, they played an aggressive attacking defense and threw over the top of the Pittsburgh defense, attacking their safeties. Against Philly, they played a 2-5 defense, setting the edges and keeping McNabb and Westbrook contained in the backfield.

Thus, the 3-4 offers much greater versatility, which fits Belichick's approach. The players that were here when he arrived were irrelevant to his decision.

People sometimes point to Greg Spires as the only player Belichick released from the Patriots who has been more successful elsewhere -- and thus a mistake in releasing him. But he is a perfect fit in the Tampa-two system as a defensive end, and was not agile or versatile enough to play OLB in the Belichick 3-4. He won a Super Bowl ring as a starter with Tampa Bay, but would have been a special teamer on the Patriots.
 
well i meant by 3-4 speed is that your LBs have to be somewhat fast because they all blitz at seperate times or two at a time and other guys drop back to cover while they have a 2-3 person rush and can sometimes grow to 6 man pass rush
 
re

Urgent, that was a great 14th post.

Remix, yes, 3-4 linebackers need to be fast enough to rush the passer and get to the QB in a few seconds, but that's basically saying all NFL linebackers have to have a certain amount of speed to make it in the league.

4-3 linebackers are usually smaller and much faster, because they have more big players in front of them, and need to cover more ground in the second layer of defense.

.
 
maverick4 said:
Urgent, that was a great 14th post.
It's only because that "other" place is down.

Urgent, why don't you like Greenway for OLB for us ? His weakness of taking on blocks would seem to be worse on the inside but his athleticism would be put to good use on the outside.
 
At the start of last season with Tedy B out and TJ retired, many fans speculated BB would go with the 4-3 because of the personel he had at that time. He didn't do that even with inferior ILB's. BB plays the 3-4 because it's his preferred defense. He likes the versality it gives him and he's said that before. IMO, he's going to need a better LB to go along with Tedy B, Colvin and Vrabel for it to be effective. And I expect he'll get one. But, if he has to play teh 4-3, it'll only be because he has no other choice and I don't think he'll be happy too about it.
 
BelichickFan said:
It's only because that "other" place is down.

Urgent, why don't you like Greenway for OLB for us ? His weakness of taking on blocks would seem to be worse on the inside but his athleticism would be put to good use on the outside.
I can't speek for Urg, but 240 lb Chad's coverage skill set is more valuable inside, and his borderline weight for the 3-4 argues that he would start out a role player as the coverage LB (ILB in the Pats' scheme) and not work into a training rotation at OLB like 245 lb Lawson (for example) could - he has better pass blocking height and much better speed off the edge for rushing the passer, even though he is also too light for the OLB slot until he starts to bulk up.
 
Urgent - thanks for a well put together post. Like to hear more thoughts from you.

Last season there was a LOT of speculation in the media and on the boards that the Patriots would switch to a 4-3 as their primary defense. Of course, predictably, that didn't happen. Belichick has apparently, with years of experience and observation, decided that the 3-4 gives his team the most effective defense in general. As Urgent points out so well, he also mixes in MANY other variations of linebacker defense to be most effective against particular team's offenses or game situations.

Also, Urgent's comments are very pertinent as to why Belichick has converted DEs to LBs over the years. Be interesting to see if the Pats sign or draft a DE this year with the expectation of creating another LB of this type.
 
I heard that Tamba Hali had a 'bad'workout at PSU last week, and could drop to the end of the first round. I would love to see if this kid could be a OLB in a 3-4.
 
CrazyDave said:
I'm curious, is the 3-4 something BB put in just because he likes it? Or did the players he had to work with have something to do with it? Or both?
Is a switch to more 4-3 possible? Adding depth at interior DL above LB?
Just a thought.

Its unlikely that the Pats will switch to more 4-3 because of the LB personnel they have. One of the reasons that they had such problems in 2002 was that Neither Tedy Bruschi nor Ted Johnson had the range that the Patriots needed for a MLB. Also, with McGinest and Vrabel for OLBs, the Pats LBs were better suited to the 3-4. When the Steve Martin failted as the NT, it was a very big reason for the collapse of the defense.

Patriots Reign gives a very good look at the reasoning for the switch.
 
Remix 6 said:
and also doesnt the 3-4 rely on speed of the LBs?

No. The 3-4 relys on the STRENGTH of the LBs more than the SPEED. In the 3-4 the ILB is only required to cover from the far hashmarks to the near sidelines with the middle covered by both. Is Speed a good thing to have? Yes. But strength is the bigger factor. At least, that is my take based on watching the Pats.
 
Remix 6 said:
well i meant by 3-4 speed is that your LBs have to be somewhat fast because they all blitz at seperate times or two at a time and other guys drop back to cover while they have a 2-3 person rush and can sometimes grow to 6 man pass rush

Blitzing isn't necessarily all about speed. Its also about getting to the QB from a position where he doesn't expect you to be coming from.
 
DaBruinz said:
Its unlikely that the Pats will switch to more 4-3 because of the LB personnel they have.

* So who do you think that will be that 4th LB ? I think BB is going to get one that's not currently on the roster
 
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