LB's and the 4-3

[Urgent]

Thanks for the nice post, Urgent.

I have a question about Inside Linebackers in the 3-4. Seems to me that one of the most important features in the transformation of our defense last season when Tedy Bruschi came back was his pass defense -- till then, we'd been getting killed by pass catching Tight Ends.

The season before, we'd been rotating Bruschi, Johnson, Phifer, with Phifer as the more coverage-oriented ILB. There's been a lot of discussion about the difficulty of replacing TJ but less about replacing Phifer. When Tedy came back, he referred to the way that his role at ILB was different from what it had been in previous seasons.

Does anyone have any views about the different roles the Pats have their ILBs take on and how they will be filled? Seems to me that, once one figures in the coverage duties, it becomes a lot more difficult to take some gifted but undersized pass-rushing D-Lineman and just turn him into a line-backer.

Box O Rocks offered a very insightful answer to this.

A couple other notes:

Yes, Bruschi absolutely changed positions this past season.

The Patriots had two different ILB formations - a run formation with Tedy and TJ and a pass formation with Tedy and Roman. TJ and Roman were very good complements - TJ took on guards like no other linebacker in the league, and Roman dropped into coverage like a safety, and was an excellent technical tackler.

Losing both Roman and TJ was a big problem, worsened by the loss of Tedy the first half of the season.

When Tedy came back, he moved over into the position TJ previously played. Vrabel played the role the Tedy had played the previous season. So Tedy was more responsible for blowing up the guards, while Vrabel covered more tight ends and backs.

As TJ, Tedy, and Roman played them, the three Patriots ILB roles were as different from one another as MLB, OLB, and DE.

TJ is perhaps most memorable for splitting the helmet of a Dolphins guard (Jamie Nails?) with his own helmet. TJ was like a mountain ram, exploding into guards. That's also why he retired early.

Roman is perhaps most memorable for holding the Colts tight end in the 2003 playoffs, playing as tight coverage down the field as the refs would allow that year.

And Tedy was always versatile, receiving the running backs funneled toward him by the DL and other LB's, leaping over the OL to blitz, or dropping into the middle zone. He is perhaps most memorable for picking off the pass in the Dolphins snow bowl, a blistering pass over the middle that he cut off and walked into the endzone. He ends up with those interceptions because he drops into the zone at unpredictable times, and often can take them back because he's not right next to a receiver in coverage.

Rocks did a terrific job of listing candidates for those roles currently. It would be great if the Pats could find someone to take the TJ role, so Tedy can play the more freelance role where he excels, and allowing Vrabel to play the LOLB spot. Beisel or Claridge could play the Roman Phifer position.

Abdul Hodge, a college ILB, might be able to handle this role and contribute as a rookie.
It's possible that Kai Parham could see significant snaps as a rookie, since he plays this type of game in a 3-4.
I think Mike Kudla, a former NT in a linebacker's body, could be very good in it, but the system might take longer to learn.
Anthony Schlegel could develop into this role.
Other possibilities in the draft include Tim McGarrigle and Tim Dobbins, but both would probably need to be eased into the role.

Chad Greenway and Spencer Havner could both handle the more coverage-oriented role, but Vrabel and Bruschi already excel at this.

As Rocks also noted, it is probably easier to drop an OLB into the Patriots system. That would require keeping Vrabel inside a lot, and probably keep Bruschi in the more abusive TJ role.

However, the list of potential 3-4 OLB's is long. Candidates include:
Manny Lawson
Bobby Carpenter
Chad Greenway
Mark Anderson
Kamerion Wimbley
Stanley McClover
Brandon Guillory
Charlton Keith
Javon Nanton

With a dozen good candidates to consider, the Patriots would have to work hard to avoid drafting a linebacker this year.

 

[CrazyDave]

Once again , you're on it. Good post. Dude, where did you come from?
This thread contains some of the most informative stuff I've read in a while.
That's why i get my info here before i read the "media" sites.

 

[arrellbee]

Arrellbee, is that the Miami game you're looking at?

Yes - and some plays at the beginning of the Jaguars game.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Thanks to Box o' Rocks and Urgent for those excellent replies -- I love this site!

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

As Rocks also noted, it is probably easier to drop an OLB into the Patriots system. That would require keeping Vrabel inside a lot, and probably keep Bruschi in the more abusive TJ role.

Tedy on tape shows an elusiveness that TJ and Vrabel, not to mention Brown and Beisel, don't have when they confront Gs. He isn't unwilling to take a G head on if necessary, but he often finds a way to slide off the G's block and around him without taking the impact TJ did.

I also think we do ourselves a disservice in our second-guessing if we try to project a player into the role of another and expect them to do things the same way. Finding a human battering-ram to replace TJ, or a LB-sized S to replace Phifer isn't what we want. Rather, find a player who, using his own strengths and minimizing his weaknesses, is successful in his assigned role.

BB didn't replace Vrabel at LOLB with a clone, Rosie Colvin doesn't do things the same way Vrabel would, but he gets results. Vrabel sliding inside doesn't play the position the same way TJ or Tedy or Phifer do/did, yet he was effective and got progressively better. TBC has an opportunity to show he can be an effective OLB, but he won't be Willie - heck, Willie wasn't Willie for his first few years in the league either.

It also isn't a good measure to look at a player in one game and say they "suck." Brady sucked if the only measure you ever used was his performance against Miami's secondary. Seymour 'sucked' against Oakland last season, so did Colvin. I'd say their performance measured over the whole of the season earned a different grade.

 

[CrazyDave]

Tedy on tape shows an elusiveness that TJ and Vrabel, not to mention Brown and Beisel, don't have when they confront Gs. He isn't unwilling to take a G head on if necessary, but he often finds a way to slide off the G's block and around him without taking the impact TJ did.

I think that's a very good point. Elusiveness, yes. He does seem to slide off blocks very well. Kind of like RB's who are hard to get a solid tackle on. Often time this ability prolongs one's career me thinks.

 

[BelichickFan]

Box - there's no doubt that Vrabel did an excellent job inside. I can't get away from the feeling, though, that we are wasting his best talent, that of athleticism and rushing the passer, inside. Do you agree with that or not ? I may be wrong but it seems like, despite our failed attempt last year, ILB have a weaker skill set and should be more easily replaceable. I say that knowing that in this year's draft there's a lot more OLB but getting a TJ type as a low cost seems quote do-able.

 

[CrazyDave]

Box - there's no doubt that Vrabel did an excellent job inside. I can't get away from the feeling, though, that we are wasting his best talent, that of athleticism and rushing the passer, inside. Do you agree with that or not ? I may be wrong but it seems like, despite our failed attempt last year, ILB have a weaker skill set and should be more easily replaceable. I say that knowing that in this year's draft there's a lot more OLB but getting a TJ type as a low cost seems quote do-able.

Personally, I'm on the fence regarding this, but I tend to agree with you. i kind of like the idea of Vrabel back outside.

 

[JackBauer]

Box - there's no doubt that Vrabel did an excellent job inside. I can't get away from the feeling, though, that we are wasting his best talent, that of athleticism and rushing the passer, inside. Do you agree with that or not ? I may be wrong but it seems like, despite our failed attempt last year, ILB have a weaker skill set and should be more easily replaceable. I say that knowing that in this year's draft there's a lot more OLB but getting a TJ type as a low cost seems quote do-able.

I think Vrabel's abilities as a field technician are a greater asset.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Tedy on tape shows an elusiveness that TJ and Vrabel, not to mention Brown and Beisel, don't have when they confront Gs. He isn't unwilling to take a G head on if necessary, but he often finds a way to slide off the G's block and around him without taking the impact TJ did.

I also think we do ourselves a disservice in our second-guessing if we try to project a player into the role of another and expect them to do things the same way. Finding a human battering-ram to replace TJ, or a LB-sized S to replace Phifer isn't what we want. Rather, find a player who, using his own strengths and minimizing his weaknesses, is successful in his assigned role.

BB didn't replace Vrabel at LOLB with a clone, Rosie Colvin doesn't do things the same way Vrabel would, but he gets results. Vrabel sliding inside doesn't play the position the same way TJ or Tedy or Phifer do/did, yet he was effective and got progressively better. TBC has an opportunity to show he can be an effective OLB, but he won't be Willie - heck, Willie wasn't Willie for his first few years in the league either.

It also isn't a good measure to look at a player in one game and say they "suck." Brady sucked if the only measure you ever used was his performance against Miami's secondary. Seymour 'sucked' against Oakland last season, so did Colvin. I'd say their performance measured over the whole of the season earned a different grade.

This isa very good point. No player has to duplicate the way another used to do it. he just has to get the job done.

One of the toughest requirements for all the LBs is to find the defensive QB. The Lb must set the defensive and diagnose the probable play before the snap. Cox did it, then Phifer used to do it and then the job was given to Bruschi, Now they have found a now/future guy in Vabel , a "future coach" and prime diagnostion. He will take Bruschi's place after Tedy hangs them up in a few years.

For that reason alone, I think Vrabes stays at ILB, Only in very obvious passing downs can he be expected to take an OLB pass rushing role. Defesnive QB is ther toughest LB skill to find, IMO.

 

[BelichickFan]

For that reason alone, I think Vrabes stays at ILB

One thing I do like about Vrabel inside is it gives us additional, almost sick, options on the blitz. To have an athlete like him who can blitz up the middle or loop around the outside will present Belichick and Pees with some interesting new options. That may be counterbalanced by Bruschi getting older and slowing down as he was an excellent blitzer but for this year is gives us two excellent blitzers in the middle along with, presumably two on the outside depending who ends up taking McGinest's LOLB spot.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Box O Rocks offered a very insightful answer to this.

A couple other notes:

Yes, Bruschi absolutely changed positions this past season.

The Patriots had two different ILB formations - a run formation with Tedy and TJ and a pass formation with Tedy and Roman. TJ and Roman were very good complements - TJ took on guards like no other linebacker in the league, and Roman dropped into coverage like a safety, and was an excellent technical tackler.

Losing both Roman and TJ was a big problem, worsened by the loss of Tedy the first half of the season.

When Tedy came back, he moved over into the position TJ previously played. Vrabel played the role the Tedy had played the previous season. So Tedy was more responsible for blowing up the guards, while Vrabel covered more tight ends and backs.

As TJ, Tedy, and Roman played them, the three Patriots ILB roles were as different from one another as MLB, OLB, and DE.

TJ is perhaps most memorable for splitting the helmet of a Dolphins guard (Jamie Nails?) with his own helmet. TJ was like a mountain ram, exploding into guards. That's also why he retired early.

Roman is perhaps most memorable for holding the Colts tight end in the 2003 playoffs, playing as tight coverage down the field as the refs would allow that year.

And Tedy was always versatile, receiving the running backs funneled toward him by the DL and other LB's, leaping over the OL to blitz, or dropping into the middle zone. He is perhaps most memorable for picking off the pass in the Dolphins snow bowl, a blistering pass over the middle that he cut off and walked into the endzone. He ends up with those interceptions because he drops into the zone at unpredictable times, and often can take them back because he's not right next to a receiver in coverage.

Rocks did a terrific job of listing candidates for those roles currently. It would be great if the Pats could find someone to take the TJ role, so Tedy can play the more freelance role where he excels, and allowing Vrabel to play the LOLB spot. Beisel or Claridge could play the Roman Phifer position.

Abdul Hodge, a college ILB, might be able to handle this role and contribute as a rookie.
It's possible that Kai Parham could see significant snaps as a rookie, since he plays this type of game in a 3-4.
I think Mike Kudla, a former NT in a linebacker's body, could be very good in it, but the system might take longer to learn.
Anthony Schlegel could develop into this role.
Other possibilities in the draft include Tim McGarrigle and Tim Dobbins, but both would probably need to be eased into the role.

Chad Greenway and Spencer Havner could both handle the more coverage-oriented role, but Vrabel and Bruschi already excel at this.

As Rocks also noted, it is probably easier to drop an OLB into the Patriots system. That would require keeping Vrabel inside a lot, and probably keep Bruschi in the more abusive TJ role.

However, the list of potential 3-4 OLB's is long. Candidates include:
Manny Lawson
Bobby Carpenter
Chad Greenway
Mark Anderson
Kamerion Wimbley
Stanley McClover
Brandon Guillory
Charlton Keith
Javon Nanton

With a dozen good candidates to consider, the Patriots would have to work hard to avoid drafting a linebacker this year.

Urgent,

Very nice and thorough analysis. BB has been aching to find some LB candidates for several drafts. They are there now, and I think he plans to stock up. I think he selects more than one high and probably a developmental guy late too. Izzo, & Davis are no spring chickens, I suspect they let Chatham walk, expecting to fill his spot with a newcomer too; and thier spots could well go to developmental guys like Cocong.

I like your opinion of Parham. his forties were terrible, We could probably get him in the fourth or fifth yet he might well turn into a spot 2-down starter playing the TJ role. Ditto for Schlegal but you might get him for one of the compensation sixes.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I think Vrabel's abilities as a field technician are a greater asset.

Bingo! Jack and I agree that Vrabel's smarts will help him line up the defense better then any rookie or second year player.

If you re-read my response to Mike's query, you'll note I believe OLB to be the easier hole to fill, not because of depth in the draft (it won't hurt), but because of the duties involved in the position. If we look at our most effective and famous example of a Pats' ILB, you'll remember Tedy started outside and worked in. Since drafting a TJ-like MLB is the only other example to draw from, I'd argue that is the template to use, which fits Vrabel to a T - remember he was used inside for brief periods in 2004, I suspect there was madness to that method with an eye to developing him as an ILB.

Of the four ILB roles, Field Tactician is the more critical - look at Tedy moving people around and identifying run or pass before the snap. That is why Rodney was able to lead a young, injury replacement secondary to the Super Bowl in 2004 - he was good at putting people in the right place. Eugene is still learning how to be a Field Marshall, Hawkins brought 3 times his experience to the field when he became Rodney's ultimate successor in 2005, it makes a difference.

Remember BB thinks 7-8 years in the league is a veteran, which is the primary reason the Pats have a few fossils running around with the kids. BB moving his brightest fossils inside to take advantage of their leadership potential - if they don't make the transition well, then they are still valuable outside or in situational roles (think Chad Brown as a coverage LB at the end of the season).

 

[BelichickFan]

BB has been aching to find some LB candidates for several drafts. They are there now, and I think he plans to stock up.

I, too, would be surprised if we take a non LB in Round 1 (and another later). The only question (which might be decided for us) is do we want :

Lawson - the pure pass rusher Colvin type.
Greenway - the athletic, coverage type.
Carpenter - the versatile, physical, can play inside or out type.

It's possible only Carpenter will be there but I think at least two of the above will be.

 

[Mike the Brit]

One thing strikes me about this great thread -- nobody, but nobody, thinks that Klecko might be a possibility as the new TJ. When he was drafted I thought "ILB conversion project". It's never happened.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

One thing strikes me about this great thread -- nobody, but nobody, thinks that Klecko might be a possibility as the new TJ. When he was drafted I thought "ILB conversion project". It's never happened.

Those of us who believe in Klecko see no need to expose him to more ridicule from those determined to complain. He has earned my support and appreciation for trying to help the team in any way the coach asked.

Since you have raised the issue, don't be surprised if he gets a tryout at OLB. His natural quickness off the snap allows him to get into blockers. Wrestling a TE or FB would be a snap for a guy who handles Cs, Gs, & Ts. He understands gap responsibility and would do a good job on the edge.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Those of us who believe in Klecko see no need to expose him to more ridicule from those determined to complain. He has earned my support and appreciation for trying to help the team in any way the coach asked.

Since you have raised the issue, don't be surprised if he gets a tryout at OLB. His natural quickness off the snap allows him to get into blockers. Wrestling a TE or FB would be a snap for a guy who handles Cs, Gs, & Ts. He understands gap responsibility and would do a good job on the edge.

I love him too, but it was worrying that last year, when the team was crying out for someone who could tackle at ILB, he wasn't even given a try there and was inactive on many game days. The OLB thought is an interesting one. Fingers crossed!

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I love him too, but it was worrying that last year, when the team was crying out for someone who could tackle at ILB, he wasn't even given a try there and was inactive on many game days. The OLB thought is an interesting one. Fingers crossed!

There are legitimate reasons which may apply:

- Knee injuries take two years to heal as a rule.
- He was asked to gain weight in the off-season to be a NT again, not the ideal playing weight for ILB who will be running more.

I suspect the knee had more to do with how he was used last year. His play at Fullback was very limited, it didn't seem as if he was able to adjust on the move as well. I don't think he did as well on Special Teams last season either.

Despite the cap room currently under contention, Klecko is a very inexpensive player to have on the roster. While he may not be considered for an every down role on the D-line, that doesn't preclude BB, Pees, and Pepper from thinking creatively with him.

I can see OLB as a logical test; it is something he has already done; it keeps him in the trenches close-in where his quickness off the snap gives him a tremendous advantage; he has the weight and strength to anchor the edge and he holds up very well at the point of attack when engaged with OL, let alone a TE/FB; he is a good pass rusher; when he shows up on tape you find him around the ball more often then not, so he does well locating the ball in trash. The only drawback is his height when it comes to clogging the passing lanes; but, this is where BB's tell me what he can do policy comes into play.

If you think of this in conjunction with the draft, you can easily see where a DE drafted to convert to OLB would benefit from playing behind a Klecko. He would have time to build up his strength and settle his weight where it needs to be. He would be a passing down substitution to put his knuckle down and use his college skill set. Warren and Wilfork come out on most passing downs, think of what a 4-3 with Sey, Jarvis, Rosie, and a Manny Lawson, or a Daryl Tapp, or an Elvis Dumervil would look like.

I'd put Klecko ahead of TBC, Claridge, and Beisel if you started considering him for your strong-side OLB. If he loses the 10 pounds or so he gained back to play Reserve NT, he would have everything but long arms to make him a success in Willie's old slot.

Think positive thoughts, this is BB and his Wunderkind running the show.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Think positive thoughts, this is BB and his Wunderkind running the show.

Absolutely! The questions are, though: why did they ask him to bulk back up when he really isn't ideal NT material? (that opens the: why did they let Ethan Kelley go? question, to which I think the only answer is that they made a mistake) and, why, if he was still injured, did they keep him on the roster?

 

[BelichickFan]

(that opens the: why did they let Ethan Kelley go? question, to which I think the only answer is that they made a mistake)

Maybe Kelley blows ? He was second string last year behind Jason Fisk who sucked and was cut this offseason. So after cutting him, they have so much confidence in Kelley that they sign 38 year old Ted Washington. Add it up and you get - Kelley is backup material, at best. I have never really watched him but when Belichick cuts you and you can't even start for the Browns, well . . .