Last night's game made me long for the early Belichick years

[mb6592]

I'd term it that they had an "attacking" defense back then (at least out of the red zone, once in the red zone they would be the "bend but not break" - contain D style we see more of now), and lately they have played more of a "zone -2gap - reactive" defense all the time.

With the improved speed and youth (plus, not as many experienced "readers" on the D as before) this year may be the first year we actually see Dean Pees go more towards the old "proactive-attacking" defense.

That's the way I perceived and perceive things.

 

[Ring 6]

Both safeties are smaller, Wilfork (and pretty much the rest of the planet) is smaller than Washington, etc....

The reference to the Colts was just about size, not scheme.

Then you should be more clear. Having smaller safeties (Wilfork is as big as any other NT) does not equate to 'taking a page out of the recruiting book' of a team that uses the smallest players in the league.

 

[Deus Irae]

Then you should be more clear. Having smaller safeties (Wilfork is as big as any other NT) does not equate to 'taking a page out of the recruiting book' of a team that uses the smallest players in the league.

I was clear:

This team has gone for faster, less punishing players, taking a page out of the Colts recruiting book.

 

[Ring 6]

That's the way I perceived and perceive things.

I think we are and always have been conservative in principal.
When we are at our best, we end up in a lot of positions where it is sensible to blitz, and appear aggressive because we are in control of score, down distance, field position.
Aggressive teams blitz on 3rd and anything, conservative teams blitz on 3rd and long. A conservative team that is very good on 1st and 2nd looks aggressive.
BBs most basic philosophy is dont give up the big play. Aggressive defenses accept giving up the big play more often in order to create the big play.
I would say BBs philopsohy is to be consistent, make them go the length of the field in many plays, do not give up the big play, and take advantage of the mistakes they make.

 

[Ring 6]

I was clear:

Now you have moved the goalposts, because thats not the part that was unclear. Unless you say we are copying the Colts personell philosophy. If thats the case, you were clear. If not you've moved the goalposts.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Wilfork is still a nasty NT, but he isn't as nasty as Washington was. For what it's worth though, I think that when BB has been able to find the nasty types of players like the ones we used to have, he has taken them.

Which Washington? The one w/ the Niners and Bills where he was all-pro material or 2-down, take-up-space one with the Bears, Pats & Browns?

If your arguement is the latter, I couldn't disagree more. Wifork is a massive upgrade.

I remember people squalking and moaning that the Pats didnt bring back TW in 04. The line was fine w/ Traylor, Wilfork, Green, Seymour and Warren.

 

[Deus Irae]

Now you have moved the goalposts, because thats not the part that was unclear. Unless you say we are copying the Colts personell philosophy. If thats the case, you were clear. If not you've moved the goalposts.

I didn't move any goalposts. You took

This team has gone for faster, less punishing players, taking a page out of the Colts recruiting book.

and responded with:

I would disagree that Bill Belichick took any pages from the Colts recruiting book in staffing his defense.
Maybe when we switch to a onegap 43 Tampa 2 I will reconsider.
Last I checked our DEs are 300lbs, not 260, and our LBs are 250-260 not 220.

when DE was not a position I was talking about since I mentioned the middle of the defense and specified the players/positions (NT/ILB/S), and defensive systems were not what I was talking about, as well as taking "faster, less punishing" and trying to force it into a specific weight range.

 

[Ring 6]

I didn't move any goalposts. You took



and responded with:



when DE was not a position I was talking about since I mentioned the middle of the defense and specified the players/positions (NT/ILB/S), and defensive systems were not what I was talking about, as well as taking "faster, less punishing" and trying to force it into a specific weight range.

Of course you did. Now you are moving them again by saying me typing DE changed the fact that you stated we 'took a page out of the Colts recruiting book'
Either
1 You think we changed our personell decisions based on what the Colts did
2 You were wrong, or
3 You've moved the goalposts to deflect from 1 or 2.

 

[Deus Irae]

Of course you did. Now you are moving them again by saying me typing DE changed the fact that you stated we 'took a page out of the Colts recruiting book'
Either
1 You think we changed our personell decisions based on what the Colts did
2 You were wrong, or
3 You've moved the goalposts to deflect from 1 or 2.

This team used to be ferocious down the middle. Bruschi, Johnson, Wilson, Harrison and Washington really set a tone for the whole defense. That sort of hard hitting and intimidating play has been missing for years. Belichick has gone with smaller safeties. He's filled that Johnson 'thumper' role with players who are more finish and athletics than ferocity and power, Bruschi's stroke and age changed his game, and Wilfork is not the menacing figure at the nose that Washington was.

This team has gone for faster, less punishing players, taking a page out of the Colts recruiting book. Whether this has been because of conscious choices, coincidence, or because the team hasn't been able to find the old type of players, I think the change is here for a while.

No goalposts were moved.

 

[JackBauer]

You're right that Mayo is going to make a lot more big plays this year. I simply think that the Pats' D and the Steelers'/Titans' Ds are completely different animals and will continue to be so this season. And last night's offensive ineptitude (Pittsburgh's inability to run the ball was particularly pathetic) was a big reason both teams' defenses appeared to be more effective than they actually are. Obviously Polomalu and Pittsburgh's OLB's are huge in Pittsburgh's ability to be "proactive" but Brady and co. will make them look silly if we see them this year.

As for our defense, even in the 4-3, I don't think we'll be able to generate much more pressure on the QB than we were able to last season, given our personnell on the front line. To trot out a well-worn offseason theme we still don't have any pass-rushing mavens in the front seven (unlike the Steelers and Titans) to allow us much more improvisation than we were able to do last year. TBC and Burgess aren't in the same league as Woodley and Harrison.

Regardless of alignment, I still don't think our LBs or safetys will be bringing it alot this year.

I don't know about that. Tennessee's defense, to be honest, doesn't really do that much for me. Their safeties are good (though Hope didn't bring it last night), and Finnegan is nasty. But their front seven is... meh. I think the Patriots have superior personnel, but a lot of young guys, too, so it remains to be seen how soon they'll get up to speed.

The only "X" factor in all of this is Pittsburgh's OLB's. As for the Patriots not having a pass-rushing maven, I disagree. If Burgess can stay healthy, the guy can get after the QB.

And lest we forget, the Patriots' sack leader in 2004 was McGinest with 9.5 sacks. In 2003, it was Vrabel with... 9.5 sacks. In 2001, it was Bobby friggin' Hamilton with 7 sacks. While the Pats might be lacking a pass rushing dynamo like Ware or Harrison, I see a bunch of guys who can be counted on to rush the passer pretty effectively, and put up 3-8 sacks this year. AD and Burgess, I think, could surpass that number.

 

[Rob0729]

The Clots can only afford SMALL and FAST. This re-tooled Patriot's Defense is young, BIG and FAST. We shall soon see if it is talented too.

Well, the Pats aren't as big as they used to be. When the Pats are in a 4-3 and TBC, AD, and Burgess play DE, they are smallerish for the position. Mayo is smaller in size for an ILB. Guyton is taller, but not any bulkier. Meriweather is three inches smaller and 20lbs lighter than Harrison at the same position. For that matter, Tebucky Jones was as big as Harrison (granted they played more split safety back then than a traditional FS/SS tandem). Sanders is smaller (4 inches) and lighter (10lbs). They aren't the Colts per sea, but they have sacrificed some size for speed.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Well, the Pats aren't as big as they used to be. When the Pats are in a 4-3 and TBC, AD, and Burgess play DE, they are smallerish for the position. Mayo is smaller in size for an ILB. Guyton is taller, but not any bulkier. Meriweather is three inches smaller and 20lbs lighter than Harrison at the same position. For that matter, Tebucky Jones was as big as Harrison (granted they played more split safety back then than a traditional FS/SS tandem). Sanders is smaller (4 inches) and lighter (10lbs). They aren't the Colts per sea, but they have sacrificed some size for speed.

Amen brother! I agree with you. BB has sacrificed a lot of size for speed. We have also lost a lot of intimation as well. Milloy and Harrison were intimidating meat mashers in the middle of the field. Johnson, Bruschi, Vrabel, Cox were all run punishers.

We need more intimidation and some punishers on defense and some size would help as well. Everybody on this board loves Mayo and Guyton, not me. Any LB can make a tackle 4 yards down field, I want someone on the inside that can jack up opposing RB's at the LOS and make RB's fear getting the handoff. I want a safety that makes WR's pull a hammy rather then go over the middle.

 

[JackBauer]

We need more intimidation and some punishers on defense and some size would help as well. Everybody on this board loves Mayo and Guyton, not me. Any LB can make a tackle 4 yards down field, I want someone on the inside that can jack up opposing RB's at the LOS and make RB's fear getting the handoff. I want a safety that makes WR's pull a hammy rather then go over the middle.

While not everyone is convinced of Guyton's ability (I am), if you don't like Mayo, there's probably something wrong with you. I know it's a shame we don't have a bunch of huge, slow linebackers and one of the best safeties to ever play the game... somehow we'll have to find a way to cope

 

[Rob0729]

Amen brother! I agree with you. BB has sacrificed a lot of size for speed. We have also lost a lot of intimation as well. Milloy and Harrison were intimidating meat mashers in the middle of the field. Johnson, Bruschi, Vrabel, Cox were all run punishers.

We need more intimidation and some punishers on defense and some size would help as well. Everybody on this board loves Mayo and Guyton, not me. Any LB can make a tackle 4 yards down field, I want someone on the inside that can jack up opposing RB's at the LOS and make RB's fear getting the handoff. I want a safety that makes WR's pull a hammy rather then go over the middle.

I didn't say I didn't like the players. I like Mayo. I like Mayo a lot, but the Pats have changed their philosophy on defense and I don't know if it is for the better.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

While not everyone is convinced of Guyton's ability (I am), if you don't like Mayo, there's probably something wrong with you. I know it's a shame we don't have a bunch of huge, slow linebackers and one of the best safeties to ever play the game... somehow we'll have to find a way to cope

I like Mayo, but Ochmed Jones is right, it seemed as though most of Mayo's tackles were 4-5 yards down field. In year 2, I expect Mayo to be more of an impact tackler such as stopping players behind the line of scrimmage, blitzing more (which he has done in preseason), getting better in coverage and stopping players from getting a first down on third downs.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

I didn't say I didn't like the players. I like Mayo. I like Mayo a lot, but the Pats have changed their philosophy on defense and I don't know if it is for the better.

Well, the defense they have been running certainly hasn't been cutting it for the last couple of years. It's time for a change.

 

[JackBauer]

I like Mayo, but Ochmed Jones is right, it seemed as though most of Mayo's tackles were 4-5 yards down field. In year 2, I expect Mayo to be more of an impact tackler such as stopping players behind the line of scrimmage, blitzing more (which he has done in preseason), getting better in coverage and stopping players from getting a first down on third downs.

That's because he was a rookie. When was the last time a rookie stepped in and started at LB for BB, not to mention played well enough to win DROY?

 

[RobertWeathers]

I didn't say I didn't like the players. I like Mayo. I like Mayo a lot, but the Pats have changed their philosophy on defense and I don't know if it is for the better.

The game is faster. BB had to adjust. He had no choice.

The only thing we are missing is a Rodney-type back in the secondary who can make the WR's run with a little bit of fear.

In terms of size on the line and at LB, we are fine.

Bodden and Springs are also on the high side for CB size.

Bottom line- IMO you can make the argument that the players arent as good. But saying that we have a "smaller" defense is splitting hairs.

My .02$

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I like Mayo, but Ochmed Jones is right, it seemed as though most of Mayo's tackles were 4-5 yards down field. In year 2, I expect Mayo to be more of an impact tackler such as stopping players behind the line of scrimmage, blitzing more (which he has done in preseason), getting better in coverage and stopping players from getting a first down on third downs.

You are right, what Mayo did as a rookie was amazing. And I do hope he grows into a true impact LB in year two I would love to see it.

 

[mayoclinic]

Well, the Pats aren't as big as they used to be. When the Pats are in a 4-3 and TBC, AD, and Burgess play DE, they are smallerish for the position. Mayo is smaller in size for an ILB. Guyton is taller, but not any bulkier. Meriweather is three inches smaller and 20lbs lighter than Harrison at the same position. For that matter, Tebucky Jones was as big as Harrison (granted they played more split safety back then than a traditional FS/SS tandem). Sanders is smaller (4 inches) and lighter (10lbs). They aren't the Colts per sea, but they have sacrificed some size for speed.

I don't know that I agree with that.

The safeties are a bit smaller, I grant you, though not undersized by any means. They are well within the range of some of the biggest hitting safeties in the game such as Troy Polamalu, Bob Sanders, and Michael Griffin. And there's decent size at the CB position with Bodden, Butler and Springs. Mayo is every bit as big as Tedy, and Guyton as big as Phifer. Adalius Thomas is 270#. 5 of our 6 full time DL players are over 300#, with Wilfork and Brace over 325#. Burgess is small for us as a DE, but well within our range at OLB, as is Woods.

This defense has the ability to run "big" sets (Warren-Wilfork-Brace in the 3-4 with Thomas-Mayo-Guyton-Woods/Burgess at LB, or Warren-Wilfork-Pryor-Brace in the 4-3, with Thomas-Mayo-Guyton at LB, for example) as well as "speed" sets (using Burgess, Thomas and TBC at DE). I expect to see some serious blitzing from Meriweather, and possibly from Chung and Butler in the secondary.

This is not a Colts finesse/speed defense with 240# DEs and 270# DTs. This is a team that can bring some serious lumber on defense and which should be terrific against the run, but which has much more speed and athleticism than in the past. I don't see it being a "finesse" defense at all.