Last night's game made me long for the early Belichick years

[RobertWeathers]

You are right, what Mayo did as a rookie was amazing. And I do hope he grows into a true impact LB in year two I would love to see it.

Mayo was reading and reacting last year as opposed to instinctively blowing up plays. I seem to remember towards the end of the year, he was shooting gaps much more and doing a better job in coverage.

I have no doubt he will be an absolute terror next year. Too stong. Too fast. Too smart. Too well-coached to be "good".

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Mayo was reading and reacting last year as opposed to instinctively blowing up plays. I seem to remember towards the end of the year, he was shooting gaps much more and doing a better job in coverage.

I have no doubt he will be an absolute terror next year. Too stong. Too fast. Too smart. Too well-coached to be "good".

I would love for that to happen. I hope he can grow into a masher like we used to have with Vincent Brown.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I don't believe it has ever been about the size of a particular player......its what they do on the field.......there are very few players who possess both the hitting ability AND can read the field like the pats have had in the past.....

fact is that there are very few SS's in existence that were both as big as harrison, supported the run like harrison, and were able to read and react lilke harrison..........we just happened to get lucky to get him.......

I believe some of the corners the pats have are the biggest they have had since BB's been here......

the pats never really had an 'attacking' defense..the pats played mostly zone...it was a read and react defense whose success was generated in practice.......things lined up and they likely had the smartest group of LB's in the history of the game.......forget the secondary, forget the DL......it comes down to the LB's in this scheme......if they could win an SB starting randall gay and earthwind moreland, if they could shut down peyton manning with gay and moreland, CB's aren't the problem........in their prime, the LB's could both cover and get sacks........which made life good for the secondary

and I don't think the pats hit all that much relatively-speaking, but even up until last year, knocked more QB's' out of the game than anyone else.......knock the starting QB out of the game and things get alot easier

 

[Ring 6]

No goalposts were moved.

OK, there is really no point in showing you once again that you have changed your argument 3 times now. Have a nice day.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, the Pats aren't as big as they used to be. When the Pats are in a 4-3 and TBC, AD, and Burgess play DE, they are smallerish for the position. Mayo is smaller in size for an ILB. Guyton is taller, but not any bulkier. Meriweather is three inches smaller and 20lbs lighter than Harrison at the same position. For that matter, Tebucky Jones was as big as Harrison (granted they played more split safety back then than a traditional FS/SS tandem). Sanders is smaller (4 inches) and lighter (10lbs). They aren't the Colts per sea, but they have sacrificed some size for speed.

When have we lined up in a 43 with TBC, AD or Burgess at DE?
If you are talking about nickel/dime, we have always played OLBs at DE.

 

[Deus Irae]

OK, there is really no point in showing you once again that you have changed your argument 3 times now. Have a nice day.

I've not changed it even once. You know that full well.


And, as you say, have a nice day.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I would love for that to happen. I hope he can grow into a masher like we used to have with Vincent Brown.

Loved '"The Undertaker". Short career as his knees started to go but he was a tackling machine. He was a pretty decent coverage LB later in his career too.

I do believe that BB had Mayo playing "safety" at the LB position last year. With Bru, Vrable, Seau, and Colvin they didn't exactly have a ton of speed to cover ground from the line to 10 yrds past the LoS.

 

[mayoclinic]

Let's look at the size of those "power" defensive teams you are envying.

1. Pittsburgh

DE Aaron Smith - 6'5", 298#
DT Casey Hampton - 6'1", 325#
DE Brett Keisel - 6'5", 285#
OLB Lamarr Woodley - 6'2", 265#
ILB James Farrior - 6'2", 243#
ILB Lawrence Timmons - 6'1", 234#
OLB James Harrison - 6'0", 242#
S Troy Polamalu - 5'10", 207#
S Ryan Clark - 5'11", 205#
CB Ike Taylor - 6'2", 195#
CB William Gay - 5'10", 190#

2. Tennessee

DE Jevon Kearse - 6'4" 265#
DT Jason Jones - 6'5", 280#
DT Tony Brown - 6'3", 290#
DE Kyle Vanden Bosch - 6'4", 278#
WLB David Thornton - 6'2", 225#
MLB Stephen Tulloch - 5'11", 235#
SLB Keith Bullock - 6'3", 235#
S Michael Griffin - 6'0", 202#
S Chris Hope - 6'0", 208#
CB Cortland Finnegan - 5'10" 182#
CB Nick Harper - 5'10", 188#

Wow, those teams are so much bigger than the Pats. No wonder they're so much more physical. We only have 330# Ron Brace, 325# Vince Wilfork, 310# Myron Pryor, 300# Ty Warren, 300# Mike Wright, 285# Jarvis Green, 270# Adalius Thomas, 260# Derrick Burgess, 245# Jerod Mayo, 245# Gary Guyton, 210# James Sanders, 210# Patrick Chung, 200# Brandon Meriweather, 204# (6') Shawn Springs, 193# (6'1") Leigh Bodden, among others. We obviously are a Colts-style finesse defense who can't physically stand up to the big boys.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Let's look at the size of those "power" defensive teams you are envying.

1. Pittsburgh

DE Aaron Smith - 6'5", 298#
DT Casey Hampton - 6'1", 325#
DE Brett Keisel - 6'5", 285#
OLB Lamarr Woodley - 6'2", 265#
ILB James Farrior - 6'2", 243#
ILB Lawrence Timmons - 6'1", 234#
OLB James Harrison - 6'0", 242#
S Troy Polamalu - 5'10", 207#
S Ryan Clark - 5'11", 205#
CB Ike Taylor - 6'2", 195#
CB William Gay - 5'10", 190#

2. Tennessee

DE Jevon Kearse - 6'4" 265#
DT Jason Jones - 6'5", 280#
DT Tony Brown - 6'3", 290#
DE Kyle Vanden Bosch - 6'4", 278#
WLB David Thornton - 6'2", 225#
MLB Stephen Tulloch - 5'11", 235#
SLB Keith Bullock - 6'3", 235#
S Michael Griffin - 6'0", 202#
S Chris Hope - 6'0", 208#
CB Cortland Finnegan - 5'10" 182#
CB Nick Harper - 5'10", 188#

Wow, those teams are so much bigger than the Pats. No wonder they're so much more physical. We only have 330# Ron Brace, 325# Vince Wilfork, 310# Myron Pryor, 300# Ty Warren, 300# Mike Wright, 285# Jarvis Green, 270# Adalius Thomas, 260# Derrick Burgess, 245# Jerod Mayo, 245# Gary Guyton, 210# James Sanders, 210# Patrick Chung, 200# Brandon Meriweather, 204# (6') Shawn Springs, 193# (6'1") Leigh Bodden, among others. We obviously are a Colts-style finesse defense who can't physically stand up to the big boys.

Excellent post. Although recent reports have Pryor closer to 319 and Mayo and Guyton closer to 250. Not trying to nit-pick. Great post!!

They just had better players (until it remains to be seen differently) in the early-mid 2000s...

 

[WelshPat]

Im still not convinced by the titans D

You dont lose an allpro and not feel any effects

Remember that Pitts OLine is horrific, sooner or later that Dline of the titans will get pushed around

 

[Rob0729]

When have we lined up in a 43 with TBC, AD or Burgess at DE?
If you are talking about nickel/dime, we have always played OLBs at DE.

Considering we haven't played the 4-3 yet in the regular season. So are you shocked that Burgess would play DE when you have been harping that he has played DE in 4-3 since he was acquired? Thomas has played DE in the 4-3 with Baltimore because they went away from the 3-4 for a time and did do a hybrid 4-3/3-4 for a while. TBC hasn't, but he could.

So no, I am talking there will be times in a straight 4-3 where one or two of these guys could be lining up in the 4-3. Two of the three have had experience at the position.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

I agree, but it's wishful thinking IMO. If anything. it's going to be even more of a finesse, "bend don't break" defense this year (definitely frustrating for fans, but usually effective--and necessary--given the personnel we have). We have no really big hitters, although the corners should be more physical. AD will be the only true playmaker out there, although hopefully Merriweather takes the next step and becomes an all-pro this season.

I'm hoping Pees and BB find a way to unleash the LBs more on blitzes, and definitely like the way Jarvis can get to the QB. But with the exception of Vince and AD, this just isn't a very physically intimidating defense.

1. We actually DO have some big hitters this year.

2. It's ridiculous to say Adalius Thomas will be the only true playmaker out there.

3. I agree, Jarvis is a decent End for the pass rush but so aren't a few of our LB's as well.

4. This isn't an intimidating defense? You need to assess that after a few games.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

I don't know about that. Tennessee's defense, to be honest, doesn't really do that much for me. Their safeties are good (though Hope didn't bring it last night), and Finnegan is nasty. But their front seven is... meh. I think the Patriots have superior personnel, but a lot of young guys, too, so it remains to be seen how soon they'll get up to speed.

The only "X" factor in all of this is Pittsburgh's OLB's. As for the Patriots not having a pass-rushing maven, I disagree. If Burgess can stay healthy, the guy can get after the QB.

And lest we forget, the Patriots' sack leader in 2004 was McGinest with 9.5 sacks. In 2003, it was Vrabel with... 9.5 sacks. In 2001, it was Bobby friggin' Hamilton with 7 sacks. While the Pats might be lacking a pass rushing dynamo like Ware or Harrison, I see a bunch of guys who can be counted on to rush the passer pretty effectively, and put up 3-8 sacks this year. AD and Burgess, I think, could surpass that number.

We'll see more pass rush as the year rolls and guys fit in. The Dline has some new cats that can penetrate pretty quick. Should be fun.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

Well, the Pats aren't as big as they used to be. When the Pats are in a 4-3 and TBC, AD, and Burgess play DE, they are smallerish for the position. Mayo is smaller in size for an ILB. Guyton is taller, but not any bulkier. Meriweather is three inches smaller and 20lbs lighter than Harrison at the same position. For that matter, Tebucky Jones was as big as Harrison (granted they played more split safety back then than a traditional FS/SS tandem). Sanders is smaller (4 inches) and lighter (10lbs). They aren't the Colts per sea, but they have sacrificed some size for speed.

Agree w/ your facts

Size can be a plus at certain positions but in the grand scheme of playing a full game/all downs-determination, consistency and focus are the most val. trait.

Adalius is big and stalky but he can keep up with some of the smaller dudes etc.

Have you ever seen Sanders from the Colts hit?

Its good to have kamikaze's that EARN that pay with sacrificing their bodies.
I hope Polamalu is ok-great guy to watch.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

I didn't say I didn't like the players. I like Mayo. I like Mayo a lot, but the Pats have changed their philosophy on defense and I don't know if it is for the better.

What's the big change?

Things always change dude.

to a Tampa 2/4-3/Colts type Defense?

Not this year....Same philosophy same coach.

We'll see everything throughout the year.



"Do your job"

 

[RoughingthePasser]

Let's look at the size of those "power" defensive teams you are envying.

1. Pittsburgh

DE Aaron Smith - 6'5", 298#
DT Casey Hampton - 6'1", 325#
DE Brett Keisel - 6'5", 285#
OLB Lamarr Woodley - 6'2", 265#
ILB James Farrior - 6'2", 243#
ILB Lawrence Timmons - 6'1", 234#
OLB James Harrison - 6'0", 242#
S Troy Polamalu - 5'10", 207#
S Ryan Clark - 5'11", 205#
CB Ike Taylor - 6'2", 195#
CB William Gay - 5'10", 190#

2. Tennessee

DE Jevon Kearse - 6'4" 265#
DT Jason Jones - 6'5", 280#
DT Tony Brown - 6'3", 290#
DE Kyle Vanden Bosch - 6'4", 278#
WLB David Thornton - 6'2", 225#
MLB Stephen Tulloch - 5'11", 235#
SLB Keith Bullock - 6'3", 235#
S Michael Griffin - 6'0", 202#
S Chris Hope - 6'0", 208#
CB Cortland Finnegan - 5'10" 182#
CB Nick Harper - 5'10", 188#

Wow, those teams are so much bigger than the Pats. No wonder they're so much more physical. We only have 330# Ron Brace, 325# Vince Wilfork, 310# Myron Pryor, 300# Ty Warren, 300# Mike Wright, 285# Jarvis Green, 270# Adalius Thomas, 260# Derrick Burgess, 245# Jerod Mayo, 245# Gary Guyton, 210# James Sanders, 210# Patrick Chung, 200# Brandon Meriweather, 204# (6') Shawn Springs, 193# (6'1") Leigh Bodden, among others. We obviously are a Colts-style finesse defense who can't physically stand up to the big boys.

Exactly.
Give me players with passion, consistency and smarts.
That's where the value is.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I don't know that I agree with that.

The safeties are a bit smaller, I grant you, though not undersized by any means. They are well within the range of some of the biggest hitting safeties in the game such as Troy Polamalu, Bob Sanders, and Michael Griffin. And there's decent size at the CB position with Bodden, Butler and Springs. Mayo is every bit as big as Tedy, and Guyton as big as Phifer. Adalius Thomas is 270#. 5 of our 6 full time DL players are over 300#, with Wilfork and Brace over 325#. Burgess is small for us as a DE, but well within our range at OLB, as is Woods.

This defense has the ability to run "big" sets (Warren-Wilfork-Brace in the 3-4 with Thomas-Mayo-Guyton-Woods/Burgess at LB, or Warren-Wilfork-Pryor-Brace in the 4-3, with Thomas-Mayo-Guyton at LB, for example) as well as "speed" sets (using Burgess, Thomas and TBC at DE). I expect to see some serious blitzing from Meriweather, and possibly from Chung and Butler in the secondary.

This is not a Colts finesse/speed defense with 240# DEs and 270# DTs. This is a team that can bring some serious lumber on defense and which should be terrific against the run, but which has much more speed and athleticism than in the past. I don't see it being a "finesse" defense at all.

When did the defense get physically dominated in the pre-season?

 

[maverick4]

Personally, I would love to back to the days with a dominant defense and a ball control offense like we had in 2001, 2003, or 2004, but we have been forced to go to a high powered offense in recent years to cover the deficiencies on defense.

I am all for the ball control offense and dominating defense.

The last part quoted above is a HUGE myth.

The 2006, 2007 Patriots defenses were top 5 or top 10 defenses, respectively. They had great defensive and points against stats.

We did not pass or go high powered to cover any deficiencies; rather, we were that way because our coordinator wanted it that way. We have also blitzed way less in part because of Pees, not just the personnel on the field.

 

[loosebearing]

Remember Polian - you know the guy that got all the rules changed to be more offense friendly.

BB adapted. 16-0 wasn't a bad start. Last year could have been another SB visit. This year the offense will take over from the 16 - 0 team if one little knee holds up.

The newer rules helps offense

 

[mb6592]

I think we are and always have been conservative in principal.
When we are at our best, we end up in a lot of positions where it is sensible to blitz, and appear aggressive because we are in control of score, down distance, field position.
Aggressive teams blitz on 3rd and anything, conservative teams blitz on 3rd and long. A conservative team that is very good on 1st and 2nd looks aggressive.
BBs most basic philosophy is dont give up the big play. Aggressive defenses accept giving up the big play more often in order to create the big play.
I would say BBs philopsohy is to be consistent, make them go the length of the field in many plays, do not give up the big play, and take advantage of the mistakes they make.

Agreed, I will just add that even within a Belichick inspired conservative approach, you can have a physical presence - which we have been lacking.