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Jonathan Sullivan from A Saints Fan perspective


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Good luck with Sullivan

My Dear Pats Fans, As a life long suffering Saints fan I wish the Pats good luck with Sullivan. Sullivan has been on of the biggest dissapointments in a long line of poor draft picks in the last nearly 40 years. As you know, Sullivan cost the Saints two first round picks. He has not live up to those expectations, he has been a total BUST! Hopefully in a new system Sullivan will realize he true potential with the Pats. Good luck.......
 
SaintPeter said:
My Dear Pats Fans, As a life long suffering Saints fan I wish the Pats good luck with Sullivan. Sullivan has been on of the biggest dissapointments in a long line of poor draft picks in the last nearly 40 years. As you know, Sullivan cost the Saints two first round picks. He has not live up to those expectations, he has been a total BUST! Hopefully in a new system Sullivan will realize he true potential with the Pats. Good luck.......

Hey--thanks for taking Tebucky off of our hands...and for the draft pick that became Corey Dillon...

:singing:

oh yeah...and thanks for ditching Tebucky...so that we could eventually get him back for short money...

see any pattern developing...?
 
SaintPeter said:
My Dear Pats Fans, As a life long suffering Saints fan I wish the Pats good luck with Sullivan. Sullivan has been on of the biggest dissapointments in a long line of poor draft picks in the last nearly 40 years. As you know, Sullivan cost the Saints two first round picks. He has not live up to those expectations, he has been a total BUST! Hopefully in a new system Sullivan will realize he true potential with the Pats. Good luck.......

There was no chance Sullivan was going to ever develop in NO - and IMO no chance BJ was going to develop here...

I'm hoping this is a win win for both teams and both players, giving them a fresh start to make something happen with their careers.
 
One of the Boston papers wrote that Bethel was constantly jawing with Pats coaches. If that is true, then Bethel's biggest problem remains his lack of maturity.
Regardless of his speed, route running or hands, it's not BBs job to give Bethel a chance, it's Bethel job to show the coaches he is worthy of a chance.
BB must have thought the ox was never getting out out the ditch because he jettisoned Bethel even though we are woefully thin at WR.

What does Sulivan's arrival mean for Klecko and/or Wright??????
 
dryheat44 said:
What you're all missing is that BJ is a downgrade to New Orleans' return game. Lewis is probably the best in the league...and probably faster (and definitely shiftier) than Bethel, especially given all of Bethel's physical ailments the last few years.

Lewis is 35 (though he's only been in the league 5 years, as he came from the ranks of the Arena League and never went to college). Last year he was injured and returned 8 kicks all season. The Saints had one of the worst return games in football.

Therefore, this is an upgrade.
 
This is like trading a bag of **** for a bucket of vomit.
 
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Well considering Lewis' age then the trade does make sense for the Saints return game. And if Lewis is healthy this season that means on kickoffs it will be a pick your poison kind of situation, kick to Lewis or BJ? In his first two years BJ was a top Kickoff returner and returned a kickoff for a TD once each season.

Bethel Johnson has legit 4.3 40 speed. I mean this guy moves like a blur and has that second gear that makes you think of a Ferrari blowing away lesser cars as he runs by defending DBs.

BUT as some posters have mentioned he has never put it all together as a WR. He runs poor routes and has been in BB's doghouse for a while so he doesn't even get on the field even when healthy.

I've heard about the Sullivan hamburger incident when he got caught in the buffet line. That does sound pretty shameful.

Hopefully BB and Seymour can whip this boy into shape. We'll have to see about that. But good luck with BJ. Hopefully he can turn it around in NO. He always had the speed, he just never developed for us.

So I think in the end this is a calculated gamble for both teams that was worth taking.
 
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sieglo said:
This is like trading a bag of **** for a bucket of vomit.

Only the difference here may be that the Pats ask Sullivan to play a new position (nose tackle) that is inherently easier for him. I read a scouting report that faulted Sullivan for his ability to make moves and get to the QB. What if he proves really good at standing still and clogging up space in the middle?! He certainly is built for it, and has whatever athletic talent made him the 6th pick overall.

There is at least the chance that the Pats added a good player here. There is little chance that Bethel improves much as a receiver, because you can't coach brains.
 
I agree with who said that this trade makes no sense from the Saints Perspective because it doesn't.

I like the Sullivan pickup. I bet he plays decent here. I am not expecting him to start but if he rotates and does a good job that'd be wonderful.

Plus he weighs more than bethel so it is obviously a good trade for the pats.
 
shakadave said:
Only the difference here may be that the Pats ask Sullivan to play a new position (nose tackle) that is inherently easier for him. I read a scouting report that faulted Sullivan for his ability to make moves and get to the QB. What if he proves really good at standing still and clogging up space in the middle?! He certainly is built for it, and has whatever athletic talent made him the 6th pick overall.
Hey guys...Saints season ticket holder since 1984 here, and from my viewpoint, I think neither guy makes their 53-man roster this season. You would think from Sullivan's physical appearance that he would be good at eating up blockers and "clogging up space in the middle", but in fact that's not his game at all. That's what the Saints asked him to do whenever they paired him with Brian Young at the DTs, since Young's strengths are penetration and pursuit. Problem is Young would never get the chance to do either because Sullivan wouldn't draw the doubleteam, leaving the center free to help on Young if needed, and if not to go after the MLB. Oddly enough, Sullivan's game is actually also to penetrate and pursue, and most of the plays that he's made (as few as they've been) were knifing between blockers to disrupt runs before they develop. His problem is you're lucky if his motor is running for even a handful of plays per game. More often he's content to just stand up at the snap and let himself be pushed out of the way...less effort needed for that. Sullivan can more often be seen off to the side on the sidelines sitting on some equipment bags, or turned with his back to the field staring aimlessly up into the stands...or if it's the Georgiadome, perhaps slipping off to hit the media buffet. Good luck, but I'm not so sure he's going to be one of those "fresh start with a new coaching staff" type of guys...he already had that here, with the hiring of Payton and an entirely new staff. More likely your staff will realize he's just as flawed as a player as Johnson, and the deal becomes simply a way for both teams to spread out a little cap money.

As for Johnson...I can't really see his threatening to take a roster spot here. It's not that the Saints' WR corps is that superb or anything; simply that I think he does the same sorts of things as several receivers we already have, only not as well. I understand he's blistering-fast...but so are Stallworth, Lewis, and Devery Henderson. And compared to those three, he's apparently not as shifty or experienced as Lewis as a kick returner (and I'm not sure he'd be nearly the "gunner" Lewis is on punt coverage); he's no faster than Henderson, who's another speed merchant with suspect hands, but who is at least strong enough to defeat the jam; and he certainly isn't nearly the receiver that Stallworth is, even if Stallworth hasn't "developed" quite as fast as we'd have like him to.
 
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So...what I get from your post is that Sullivan is a lazy, fat slob,unmotivated waste of talent, content to slurp down cap money and essentially give nothing in return. In that case he won't survive training camp.

Bethel is as fast as anyone on your team, we've seen him catch the ball, and he does present a threat on kickoffs...his biggest problem here was he thought he was a superstar from the first day he put his pads on here and went around thumping his chest everytime he touched the ball his rookie year. His playing time has steadily decreased the last few seasons and the impression is BB doesn't like his attitude towards the game.Maybe you got a player, maybe you didn't.

Thanx for the great post though , Puddin'
 
If that's the case, Sullivan might never get past the conditioning sprint tests that allow him on the field. He may be on a stationary bike for a few months in July/August, then on the street!
 
Puddinhead said:
.... (and I'm not sure he'd be nearly the "gunner" Lewis is on punt coverage); he's no faster than Henderson, who's another speed merchant with suspect hands, but who is at least strong enough to defeat the jam; ....

WhoDat, as i was reading this long litany of posts - which accurately characterize Bethel - i was going to chime in
that he ALSO can be smart and energetic covering punts and kicks.

But Puddinhead beat me to that topic.

HOWEVER, i believe that Puddin' is wrong in both respects. I've seen Johnson play gunner well ... and he can be effectively physical (when he is hale.)
 
Sullivan enables Wilfork to be an NT or DT. Wilfork has great intial burst speed to clog holes. Sullivan also can be NT or DT. So Sully expands Wilforks role while also giving himself a 2nd chance...that's a great deal. Bethel's role did not affect anyone else's role....so he goes.
 
Puddinhead said:
.....................
His problem is you're lucky if his motor is running for even a handful of plays per game. More often he's content to just stand up at the snap and let himself be pushed out of the way...less effort needed for that. Sullivan can more often be seen off to the side on the sidelines sitting on some equipment bags, or turned with his back to the field staring aimlessly up into the stands..........

Well last year he seemd to start coming around. What was expected from him
in NO won't be what he's asked to do with the PATs.
If he is used as Wilfork's rotation it may work out just fine. You say he
likes to take plays off .... so what you're saying is he is not an every down
guy. With PATs he won't have to be. His ex-coach says he's explosive and
powerful. I guess he meant some of the time.

If Saints were asking too much from him then this change could be just what
Sullivan needs. I'm excited to see if BB and his coaches can use this guy
effectively.

His potential is awesome. I'm not so quick to write this guy off as a bust.
If he turns out to be a difference maker with the PATs, i would imagine it won't
sit too well with Saint fans. But remember the system makes a difference.
 
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JR4 said:
Well last year he seemd to start coming around. What was expected from him
in NO won't be what he's asked to do with the PATs.
If he is used as Wilfork's rotation it may work out just fine. You say he
likes to take plays off .... so what you're saying is he is not an every down
guy. With PATs he won't have to be. His ex-coach says he's explosive and
powerful. I guess he meant some of the time.

If Saints were asking too much from him then this change could be just what
Sullivan needs. I'm excited to see if BB and his coaches can use this guy
effectively.

His potential is awesome. I'm not so quick to write this guy off as a bust.
If he turns out to be a difference maker with the PATs, i would imagine it won't
sit too well with Saint fans. But remember the system makes a difference.
Systems do make a difference, no doubt. But I wasn't trying to imply that Sullivan was "not an every down player" because he can't sustain intensity for long stretches (although that's certainly been true his entire career so far as well); he doesn't sustain intensity mainly because he doesn't care to do so. He doesn't like to take "plays" off--he likes to take "months" off. After his rookie season, when it became apparent that no combination of forced conditioning work, threats, cajoling, positive reinforcement, or peer pressure was having any effect on the guy as far as getting him to grasp the concept of "personal responsibility", even the last coaching staff had figured out that Sullivan couldn't be counted on to play more than a few downs at a time. For the past two seasons he was essentially a "back-of-the-rotation" guy when he was active for game days...fairly often the staff (and his teammates) were so disgusted with him that they didn't even include him on the active game day roster.

Physically, the guy can make some eye-opening plays, either shooting a gap by beating the O-line off the snap, or by pursuing runs down the line of scrimmage. So whichever ex-coach you're referring to is precisely right about that. The problem is that apparently Sullivan has never been asked to work at anything yet in his life, and the concept's pretty foreign to him. There has been a series of veteran players on the team who have made concious efforts to "mentor" the guy on what it means to be "professional" and to work at a craft in order to succeed, but they've all eventually given up in disgust. I can tell you that the general consensus among the current players on the team according to the Saints beat reporters is that although they're sorry to see a guy totally waste a physical gift, they're plenty happy to see him go waste it somewhere else. The guy who's been the Saints reporter for years for WWL radio, which carries the games and whose sports coverage focuses on the team, has been saying since his rookie season that Sullivan's standard reply to teammates who've tried to convince the guy to apply himself has been "$7.4 million, bro'." That's his guaranteed signing bonus figure, which is in the bank no matter what he does.

I wish the Patriots good luck with the guy, and every time a "bad attitude" guy can be made to "see the light" it's a good thing for the world in general, but in closing I'd like make this last statement about Jonathan Sullivan that pretty well sums up his career so far. As you may know, the Saints had another overweight DT with talent a few years back in Grady Jackson, who was finally released after, having been told he would be inactive for a game the following day, left the team hotel for the night, skipped the mandatory morning meeting sessions on game day...but showed up for the pre-game team meal. The statement about Sullivan would be that he's a whole lot like Grady Jackson...just not nearly as motivated.
 
Puddinhead said:
Systems do make a difference, no doubt. But I wasn't trying to imply that Sullivan was "not an every down player" because he can't sustain intensity for long stretches (although that's certainly been true his entire career so far as well); he doesn't sustain intensity mainly because he doesn't care to do so. He doesn't like to take "plays" off--he likes to take "months" off. After his rookie season, when it became apparent that no combination of forced conditioning work, threats, cajoling, positive reinforcement, or peer pressure was having any effect on the guy as far as getting him to grasp the concept of "personal responsibility",

If this continues to be the case, and I expect it's better than 50/50 that it will, he won't be here long. Which is fine. Garbage out, garbage in, garbage out again, with cap benefits.
 
I think the Pats brought Sullivan in because they liked him coming out of college. I think they hope he will respond to the leadership they have up front, and guys like Seymour and Warren will rub off on him.

As for Bethel, he has been regressing since his rookie season and the fact he was inactive for half the season and both playoff games last year pretty much shows the coaching staff had already given up on him. I've seen him be effective beating the jam and getting downfield covering punts, but he usually takes a bad angle and isn't a good tackler. He would beat everyone down the field and then just miss the guy.
 
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flutie2phelan said:
WhoDat, as i was reading this long litany of posts - which accurately characterize Bethel - i was going to chime in
that he ALSO can be smart and energetic covering punts and kicks.

But Puddinhead beat me to that topic.

HOWEVER, i believe that Puddin' is wrong in both respects. I've seen Johnson play gunner well ... and he can be effectively physical (when he is hale.)
I stand corrected. There's a guy down here who makes his living doing a college draft guide and NFL personnel evaluations who has sort of become the "go-to" guy on such things for the local media...sort of our "Mel Kiper" except that he seems to be right sometimes..LOL. His take on Johnson was he had classic speed, suspect hands and route-running ability, and seemed not to be physical enough to defeat the jam as a receiver. I extrapolated that that probably meant he wouldn't be too enthusiastic about playing gunner, where he essentially would be "jammed" the whole way down the field. My mistake.
 
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