Jonathan Sullivan from A Saints Fan perspective

[arrellbee]

Puddinhead - Thanks for all of the background info !!

 

[NE39]

The statement about Sullivan would be that he's a whole lot like Grady Jackson...just not nearly as motivated.

You may be right, but he is still a young kid. His reputation in college was having a good motor, and he was able to stay in shape. No doubt maturity is an issue and he has been a bum, but maybe the light comes on in the right environment. You can talk all you want about other Saints players trying to mentor him and their coaches trying to motivate him, but it is a little different than Richard Seymour and Bill Belichick with their history of success.

Of course, he probably won't change because it doesn't happen a lot. However, if he were to mature he is a very talented player at a premium position the Pats picked up for a song. It does happen, just look at Gerard Warren last year.

 

[Puddinhead]

You may be right, but he is still a young kid. His reputation in college was having a good motor, and he was able to stay in shape. No doubt maturity is an issue and he has been a bum, but maybe the light comes on in the right environment. You can talk all you want about other Saints players trying to mentor him and their coaches trying to motivate him, but it is a little different than Richard Seymour and Bill Belichick with their history of success.

Of course, he probably won't change because it doesn't happen a lot. However, if he were to mature he is a very talented player at a premium position the Pats picked up for a song. It does happen, just look at Gerard Warren last year.

I never meant to intimate that this was a "bad deal" for New England at all. I don't see the Patriots really taking any risk here. They, like the Saints, essentially gave up a player who wasn't in their plans at all for one who could possibly (although it's a longshot) contribute. My guess is that if (and I think it's likely) by the end of training camp, after being given a chance to get with the program and some "love" from Richard Seymour, Sullivan is still down on one knee sucking wind and telling teammates "7.4, bro'." then he'll be escorted to the gate and told to hit the bricks. And the Patriots won't really have lost anything.

 

[Mike the Brit]

From another thread:

Sullivan: Interesting pick-up, when I broke down the New Orleans plays he was the DL who stood out to me MANKINSHANDLING well, Mankins. I don't recall another DL all season giving Mankins the same level of trouble Sullivan did. If he can continue to improve on the play he demonstrated last season, and turn around his conditioning and attitude, Vince needs to watch over his shoulder. If not, cheap experiment and there's always Klecko.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=36604

Thanks for your comments, Puddinhead. I guess what B O R says, sums it up for me -- if he shows that for a few plays, then the Pats are lucky. On the other hand, I can understand a guy who has been paid $10 million thinking that there may be more to life than having huge men slap him around ...

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

I just got back from Florida and I didn't have the chance to read the entire thread. So if I make some redundant points, my apologies.

FWIW, My thoughts...

- I don't see Bethel as a bust. To me, he's a "disappointment". My opinion of a "bust" is a player who simply can't play this game for whatever reason: can't grasp a playbook, physical limitations, unable to adjust to the pros, poor work habits, etc, to a point that his contributions to the team are nominal at best. That doesn't apply to Bethel. His rookie season was productive in one big way. His performance against Tennessee in the 2003 AFC Divisional game was critical. His TD catch and his highlight film run on a reverse led to points in a tight 17-14 win. If not for his big diving catch against Seattle in 2004, the Pats would have fallen short of the NFL record regular season winning streak.

- Jonathan Sullivan was a bust. He was this 6th overall pick that the Saints traded 2 #1s to acquire. He's been fat, lazy, and has shown a poor attitude. Sullivan has set the Saints back, years.

- Based solely on on-field production alone, the Saints are likely to get the better of this deal. I say this because Bethel is all but a lock to make the Saints 53. Sullivan is not. Bethel could see more action, at least on KO returns. Meanwhile, Sullivan must show that a leopard can change its spots. I'm not saying he can't, just that changing work habits and learning a new scheme in a short time is not an easy thing to do. Therefore, it shouldn't be viewed as a given that Sullivan brings anything to the table in Foxboro. This deal could turn out to be less significant than the Andre Davis deal from a year ago.

- This trade is a microcosm of the Patriots philosophy of risk vs reward. It's now obvious that Bethel was going to get cut, had he remained on the TC roster. Therefore, if Sullivan doesn't mend his ways, then the Pats lose nothing. If Sullivan experiences a pigskin rebirth, and becomes a part of the regular DL rotation, then this deal becomes a heist. Risk vs reward. In this case the risk is less than nominal and the reward potential is enormous. This deal was a no-brainer for the Pats.

 

[maverick4]

re

Of course, he probably won't change because it doesn't happen a lot. However, if he were to mature he is a very talented player at a premium position the Pats picked up for a song. It does happen, just look at Gerard Warren last year.

57 tackles in 17 starts (36 games) is not great, but this trade isn't like the Starks trade last year where Starks still had nagging injuries. In 2005, Sullivan made 21 tackles in his final 6 games.

Count me in the 'this was a good trade' camp. The Pats needed a backup NT, and he could be their man. If he doesn't work out, then he costs nothing.

 

[Puddinhead]

I just got back from Florida and I didn't have the chance to read the entire thread. So if I make some redundant points, my apologies.

FWIW, My thoughts...

- I don't see Bethel as a bust. To me, he's a "disappointment". My opinion of a "bust" is a player who simply can't play this game for whatever reason: can't grasp a playbook, physical limitations, unable to adjust to the pros, poor work habits, etc, to a point that his contributions to the team are nominal at best. That doesn't apply to Bethel. His rookie season was productive in one big way. His performance against Tennessee in the 2003 AFC Divisional game was critical. His TD catch and his highlight film run on a reverse led to points in a tight 17-14 win. If not for his big diving catch against Seattle in 2004, the Pats would have fallen short of the NFL record regular season winning streak.

- Jonathan Sullivan was a bust. He was this 6th overall pick that the Saints traded 2 #1s to acquire. He's been fat, lazy, and has shown a poor attitude. Sullivan has set the Saints back, years.

- Based solely on on-field production alone, the Saints are likely to get the better of this deal. I say this because Bethel is all but a lock to make the Saints 53. Sullivan is not. Bethel could see more action, at least on KO returns. Meanwhile, Sullivan must show that a leopard can change its spots. I'm not saying he can't, just that changing work habits and learning a new scheme in a short time is not an easy thing to do. Therefore, it shouldn't be viewed as a given that Sullivan brings anything to the table in Foxboro. This deal could turn out to be less significant than the Andre Davis deal from a year ago.

- This trade is a microcosm of the Patriots philosophy of risk vs reward. It's now obvious that Bethel was going to get cut, had he remained on the TC roster. Therefore, if Sullivan doesn't mend his ways, then the Pats lose nothing. If Sullivan experiences a pigskin rebirth, and becomes a part of the regular DL rotation, then this deal becomes a heist. Risk vs reward. In this case the risk is less than nominal and the reward potential is enormous. This deal was a no-brainer for the Pats.

Actually, it was pretty much a "no-brainer" for the Saints, too...even if I'm not as sure as you that Johnson makes the final roster here. Here's (paraphrased) how another guy explained it on the SaintsReport message board:
It's obvious Payton had decided that the team would be much better off with Sullivan gone rather than hanging around collecting his checks while parked on his fat *@& while his teammates were sweating theirs off, and that he probably was willing to just release the guy and take the cap hit. So I see it like this...you have an old broken washing machine that's doing you absolutely no good and taking up space that could be better used. You call a guy who says he'll come haul it away, but it's gonna cost you $20. You bring the washer out to the curb, but before the "hauler" shows up, another guy riding past stops and says, "Hey, I like to tinker with old washing machines...I'll give you $10 for that one." Easy decision. Of course, you might still have the "hauler" show up and try to tell you that you still owe him $10 for making him make the trip out to your place...in which case you might not get to keep the money the guy gave you for the washer. But hey...the goal in the first place was to get rid of the washer, right? Mission accomplished!

 

[flutie2phelan]

....
There has been a series of veteran players on the team who have made concious efforts to "mentor" the guy on what it means to be "professional" and to work at a craft in order to succeed, but they've all eventually given up in disgust. ....

I wish the Patriots good luck with the guy, and every time a "bad attitude" guy can be made to "see the light" it's a good thing for the world in general, ....

Tremendous info, Puddinhead and WhoDatSaint. Thanks!

Until Seymour recently extended his contract, our obsessive discussions here about him and about that extension ...
included lots of back and forth about whether Richard is a "leader".

If Sullivan flunks, that doesn't really say that Big Sey isn't ... but if Sully turns it around ...
that sure would be taken as a mighty big leadership feather in #93's cap !

 

[Puddinhead]

One last post (well, maybe the last..LOL) on the Jonathan Sullivan deal. This is a link to an article about his tenure with the Saints by Mike Detillier, who is the guy I said earlier was sort of our "local Mel Kiper" type down here:

http://www.houmatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060611/SPORTS/606110310/1103/SPORTS02

 

[spacecrime]

One last post (well, maybe the last..LOL) on the Jonathan Sullivan deal. This is a link to an article about his tenure with the Saints by Mike Detillier, who is the guy I said earlier was sort of our "local Mel Kiper" type down here:

http://www.houmatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060611/SPORTS/606110310/1103/SPORTS02

Sullivan also had a long immature streak in him, and he was very sensitive to criticism. One of the things he did quite a bit was search some of the Saints-related Internet sites about his play -- not a good idea for an underachieving player.


Well, he better shape up or stay off Patsfans. This would not be a fun site for an player sensitive to criticism and who is doing poorly.

 

[Puddinhead]

Sullivan also had a long immature streak in him, and he was very sensitive to criticism. One of the things he did quite a bit was search some of the Saints-related Internet sites about his play -- not a good idea for an underachieving player.


Well, he better shape up or stay off Patsfans. This would not be a fun site for an player sensitive to criticism and who is doing poorly.

Well, if the guy really was reading everything said about him on SaintsReport then it was little wonder he looked so depressed all of the time...come to think of it, I understand that a very common reaction to depression is to resort to "comfort food"....LOL

 

[BelichickFan]

One last post (well, maybe the last..LOL) on the Jonathan Sullivan deal. This is a link to an article about his tenure with the Saints by Mike Detillier, who is the guy I said earlier was sort of our "local Mel Kiper" type down here:

http://www.houmatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060611/SPORTS/606110310/1103/SPORTS02

Thanks for the link. Anyone wanting to read it can use [email protected] and bugmenot as the username/password.

One little tidbit in there was quotes from Sullivan's former DC, Rick Venturi - remember he replaced Nick Saban as Belichick's DC in Cleveland. So while Sullivan did fail in N.O., I am sure Belichick talked to Venturi and got at least some reason to trade for him. I really think Belichick is no more than 1 or 2 degrees of freedom away from knowing everyone in the NFL, it always seems that way anyway.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I actually would like to take a contrarian view on this:

I think the Saints got the better deal if nothing at all changes for the better. The fact is that Bethel is a punk but he still wants to run up and down the field and contribute, and beat his chest with glory for making a catch. He WILL do something for the Saints, and probably more than he did for the Pats, because Belichick wants respect from his players before they hit the field. The Saints will most likely let him try to make a couple plays a game, even just running up the field or returning a few kicks alongside Lewis.

I don't think Sullivan will make the team, Period!


Now, if Sullivan suddenly improves, the Pats have a steal on their hands! A good back-up on the D-Line is better value than a #4 wide-out. BUT I DOUBT HE MAKES THE TEAM, and I think Bethel contributes a little to the Saints this season.

 

[spacecrime]

I actually would like to take a contrarian view on this:

I think the Saints got the better deal if nothing at all changes for the better. The fact is that Bethel is a punk but he still wants to run up and down the field and contribute, and beat his chest with glory for making a catch. He WILL do something for the Saints, and probably more than he did for the Pats, because Belichick wants respect from his players before they hit the field. The Saints will most likely let him try to make a couple plays a game, even just running up the field or returning a few kicks alongside Lewis.

I don't think Sullivan will make the team, Period!


Now, if Sullivan suddenly improves, the Pats have a steal on their hands! A good back-up on the D-Line is better value than a #4 wide-out. BUT I DOUBT HE MAKES THE TEAM, and I think Bethel contributes a little to the Saints this season.

It was no lose for both teams, an ideal trade. Each team only lost a player they had given up on anyway and was unlikely to make the team. Each got a player who might or might not turn his career around.

Funny things happen when players get dumped. Some don't care, but some become obsessed with roving the other team "wrong."

It could happen with Bethel or Johnathan. Or both. Or neither.

But the Saints lost nothing if SUlivan turns it around because after three years he was unlikely to turn it around with them. He needed the jolt. Same thing with Johnson and the Pats.

Bottom line for Saints - Pats: No losers, maybe one wins, maybe not.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Spacecrime,

While there won't be a true loser in this trade, at least when it comes to bragging rights, there could be a winner. In three years, is either team better off? It really depends on Sullivan, I'd love to brag that we got a good back-up D-Line for 'cutting' Johnson, but I'm not sure. New Orleans will probably be able to brag that Johnson made some plays this year, however minor to the team's overall success. Especially if Sullivan is stealing donuts from the press box.

Overall, it is a fairly meaningless trade at the moment.