Is the 3-4 defense locked? Possible switch to 4-3?

[Simkin]

All we know BB . Its maybe the most inteligent coach of profesional sports in America . He is always a step front of the other coaches and the league .

Last seasons we saw all teams trying to move in a 3-4 defense, and being succesful. Cardinals, for example .

Its now time to move to a 4-3 D??? Try to remeber how BB since the Manning Rule of pass interference ( since 2005 ) its always being in shotgun with a spread formation, and others teams are making this later .

Players like Mayo , Meriweather, Chung , Bodden , Butler are players that fit very well in a Tampa-2 defense . Drafting Pryor and Brace ( and no one OLB pass rusher ) are another significant move .


Waht do you think about it?

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Re: Is the 3-4 Defense Locked? Possible switch to 4-3

4-3 Possibly. Tampa 2 hell no.

 

[pats1]

All we know BB . Its maybe the most inteligent coach of profesional sports in America . He is always a step front of the other coaches and the league .

Last seasons we saw all teams trying to move in a 3-4 defense, and being succesful. Cardinals, for example .

Its now time to move to a 4-3 D??? Try to remeber how BB since the Manning Rule of pass interference ( since 2005 ) its always being in shotgun with a spread formation, and others teams are making this later .

Players like Mayo , Meriweather, Chung , Bodden , Butler are players that fit very well in a Tampa-2 defense . Drafting Pryor and Brace ( and no one OLB pass rusher ) are another significant move .

Waht do you think about it?

Who knows, it's always a possibility. They started off 2009 using a 4-3 defense.

The problem is, any good 4-3 defense needs three good pass rushers, or at least two elite ones. See the Giants with Tuck, Osi, Strahan/Kiwanuka. or the Colts with Mathis and Freeney. Your LBs won't be used to generate pressure, so it would be all on your DEs. Right now the Pats have zero such players. Even if Banta-Cain does re-sign, he falls into the "good" pass rusher category, not the "elite" one, and even at that I'm not sure I'd want him on the field as a 4-3 DE on early downs.

But in a sense I think you're right, the personnel has gotten younger, smaller, and faster. They've tried to fit that into a 3-4 defense, which requires bigger and stronger players, and obviously it has not worked out too well.

Still, I don't think you'll see them make as drastic a move to the Tampa-2, even though that usually covers for your CBs. You need very rangy LBs and safeties to run that scheme.

 

[Rob0729]

The Pats will never use the Tampa 2. First, they would have to completely revamp their defensive staff because the Tampa 2 requires small, quick players. Second, the Tampa 2 is going the way of the dinosaurs because of the changes in offenses.

 

[pats1]

The Pats will never use the Tampa 2. First, they would have to completely revamp their defensive staff because the Tampa 2 requires small, quick players. Second, the Tampa 2 is going the way of the dinosaurs because of the changes in offenses.

Agreed, there's very few teams that still use that scheme. You can cross the Bills off the last, too. That leaves the Bucs, the Colts, the Bears...who else? It was a defense that helped stop the West Coast offense, which isn't exactly prevalent right now.

 

[Boston Tim]

It was a defense that helped stop the West Coast offense, which isn't exactly prevalent right now.

That is an interesting point. Offenses have evolved from the timing routes of the West Coast (where the QB was nothing more than a strong arm) to today's Option routes (where the QB has to read defenses and be in sync with his receivers). The trend from defenses has been to apply quick pressure to the QB to disrupt these reads and force bad decisions. Without a stellar offensive line (i.e Pats), you either get your QB killed or you have your tight ends completely neutralized by having to block.

The Tampa-2 with its quicker front 7 and the 1-gap, penetrating style 3-4 defenses seem more appropriate for this type of strategy. Whereas the 2-gap "bend but don't break" read-based 3-4 used by the Patriots is less effective - frankly, its dependent on the opposing offense making a mistake at some point while its driving down the field 5 yards at a time. And without being able to apply pressure on third downs, it is fairly useless.

 

[falloutboy14]

I'm not even sure the Colts run a Tampa 2 anymore. We've blitzed significantly more then we have in any year prior. We've gotten bigger at DT as well.

That said, I think there's 2 positions you can build your defense around. Either the elite pass-rushing DE, which leads to a 4-3. Or the big blocker-eating NT, which leads to the 3-4.

 

[pats1]

I'm not even sure the Colts run a Tampa 2 anymore. We've blitzed significantly more then we have in any year prior. We've gotten bigger at DT as well.

That said, I think there's 2 positions you can build your defense around. Either the elite pass-rushing DE, which leads to a 4-3. Or the big blocker-eating NT, which leads to the 3-4.

That's true, Coyer has changed your defense.

 

[unoriginal]

That's true, Coyer has changed your defense.

They began the change years ago when they put Bob Sanders on Ed Reed-style free range. Also around the time they beat the Bears in the Super Bowl by exploiting the weaknesses of the Tampa 2.

 

[Patspsycho]

Also college football is going more and more spread. True? If so, this will affect the NFL in a trickle up effect because of the personnel that college teams will try to choose to compliment their spread, which in turn also affects defensive personnel

 

[unoriginal]

I'm not even sure the Colts run a Tampa 2 anymore. We've blitzed significantly more then we have in any year prior. We've gotten bigger at DT as well.

That said, I think there's 2 positions you can build your defense around. Either the elite pass-rushing DE, which leads to a 4-3. Or the big blocker-eating NT, which leads to the 3-4.

A 4-3 needs two good linemen — that weak side DE and some kind of under tackle. Often times that under tackle is a converted DE like John Randle or Justin Tuck.

 

[The_Dragon]

But if spread offenses do become more normal and teams start using an extra DB will it be a lineman that is sacrificed or an LB?

And does it mean linemen like Wilfork - space eaters - become even more valuable?

 

[pats1]

But if spread offenses do become more normal and teams start using an extra DB will it be a lineman that is sacrificed or an LB?

And does it mean linemen like Wilfork - space eaters - become even more valuable?

If teams spread the field more, that means they are into more passing situations and thus pass rushers are needed. They does not help Wilfork's value.

But I think what we saw last Sunday helps dispel the notion that the NFL is become a spread offense league. The Ravens lined up, told the Patriots where they were going to run, and the Patriots could do nothing about it. Play after play, first down after first down. Similarly, on defense, the Patriots tried to line up and run the ball, and they hit a brick wall in the form of Haloti Ngata and Ray Lewis. Then they tried to pass the ball and got blown over by Terrell Suggs and Ed Reed.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Tampa 2 teams don't even play the Tampa 2 anymore. It's obsolete. That said, I don't care if we run a 4-3 or 3-4. All that matters is whether or not we can rush the passer- if we can do that from the 4-3, then let's make the switch. If we can do it from the 3-4, then let's not.

 

[miDeuce]

I think they will remain a 3-4 base team. They tried more 4-3 this year, I believe playing that a majority of the time thru training camp. But I read somewhere (I think Bruschi) that it was a complicated scheme and needed a lot more communication. Going back to the 3-4 simplified things again. As Tedy said the 3-4 is the defense you learn from day 1 under Belichick, so I think that will always be the foundation no matter what sub-packages or other looks they try to sprinkle in.

 

[pats1]

I think they will remain a 3-4 base team. They tried more 4-3 this year, I believe playing that a majority of the time thru training camp. But I read somewhere (I think Bruschi) that it was a complicated scheme and needed a lot more communication. Going back to the 3-4 simplified things again. As Tedy said the 3-4 is the defense you learn from day 1 under Belichick, so I think that will always be the foundation no matter what sub-packages or other looks they try to sprinkle in.

Right, they played 4-3 pretty much the first half of the season. In the Ravens game that I re-watched last week, Guyton was at ILB (Mayo was injured), and Thomas and Woods were at OLB. The big DL was Warren, Wright/Pryor, Wilfork, Green, while the small 3rd down DL was Burgess, Wright, Wilfork, and Banta-Cain. That was true throughout the preseason too.

Then they switched over to the 3-4 around the bye week or so. The DL was set at Warren, Wilfork, Green (when not healthy, Wilfork/Burgess, Wilfork/Wright/Brace, Green/Wright). Then TBC slowly emerged as the OLBs with the most reps, as AD's time dwindled. Woods' playing time also dwindled down the stretch, as Burgess and Ninkovich got more reps at OLB. But the ILBs were Guyton and Mayo full-time, except for a few games where Seau subbed in for Guyton.

 

[miDeuce]

Right, they played 4-3 pretty much the first half of the season.

It looked like a really strange version of the 4-3 to me, with four down lineman but the OLBs lined up a lot on the LOS, leaving only the lone MLB at the second level. Seemed like they were definitely trying something a little different and I guess just didn't have the depth/experience to run it well.

 

[mgteich]

We play both 3-4 2-gap and 4-3 2-gap. I see no reason to switch defenses unless we don't have a top NT to play in 2010 (Wilfork or Hampton or Cody).

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

We play both 3-4 2-gap and 4-3 2-gap. I see no reason to switch defenses unless we don't have a top NT to play in 2010 (Wilfork or Hampton or Cody).

I like the 3-4 defense better than the 4-3, just personal preference. I like having 4 LB's instead of 3.

As mgteich said, we play a 2-gap 3-4 defense. I'd prefer a change to the 1-gap 3-4, which is what teams like the Jets and Ravens play. I like that penetrating, aggressive style of defense.