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If PSU gets the Death Penalty What Happens to O'Brien?


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If O'Brien's agent did his job, there'll be some language in the contract that deals with this.
 
In the new renovated showers at PSU?

The folks at PSU have good judgement, I'm sure they will put a statue commemorating Sandusky's acts in the new showers.
 
Williamsport,PA which is not far from State College (about 60 miles east) just arrested a man who was accused of hanging out in a school parking lot and sexually assaulting several boys.....

I am about 2 1/2 hours drive east of middle PA and know it's pretty bad over there.

Damn, that's some scary stuff.
 
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burn it all down...

Amen. My hope is that the term "death penalty" will be given a whole new meaning in college athletics when all is said and done.
 
great academic institution?...OK...fine by me and everyone else.Sports programs???...intrinsic part of the college experience....there is not a scintilla of suspicion surrounding these programs.

JoePa,football,the legacy?...burn it...burn it down...give the football players a chance to transfer to other programs at other schools...NEVER allow a football program to be built again.Make the example clear and inarguable...THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN...you rape kids, know kids are being raped, hide the facts, bury your head,justify,minimize, ask for leniency...no effin' way...YOU are all done...for good. This is NOT harsh....their actions over decades of abuse DEMANDS this death penalty.
 
There is a lot at stake here than football. That's why as a PSU alum, I can care less about the football program.

For a variety of reasons, I think this is more about CYA and lawyers and costs/benefits than it is about football.

Here are the first 2 reasons:

1. Sandusky was reported to police and child welfare in 1998 by a PSU Veep. This was while he was still coach.

2. When the Sandusky pedophile story first broke in February of 2011, the fact that he had committed rape at Clinton Cty HS, it never made the national news. I think the media is focusing on the PSU cover-up. If it were only about Sandusky's crimes, I don't think people would be that interested. After all, no one picked up the story of Sandusky's crimes in February of 2011, and the story of what he did in Clinton Cty is just as sick and deplorable as what he did in 2001.

Of course, there's no way to know how it would have gone in 2001. Just because the media took no interest in Sandusky's crimes in early 2011 does not mean it would not have taken interest in 2001.

Here are some other factors that haven't been reported much in the media.

Because of the Freeh leaks, everyone is pretty certain that Paterno overturned the planned strategy to turn Sandusky over to the authorities. Yet, if you read the exhibits at the end of the Freeh report, you will see that just two days after the rape, the President and VP wrote a handwritten memo in which the strategy was already in place. It even said, "Unless Sandusky confesses, they will report him." But first they would confront Sandusky. The leaks skew this timeline and put the onus on Paterno. The memo was written on 2/12/01 whereas the Curley/Paterno meeting happened on 2/26/01. The chief perpetrators, Paterno and Spanier, were already in agreement fully two weeks before. And this was after talking to university lawyers who also seem to have been in on the cover-up.

Why is this important?

First, Spanier covered up other child abuse cases against professors. This shows that the CYA mode he was in was more about liabilities (as he wrote in an email). This was his modus operandi even when it didn't involve football.

Second, if you get into BOT politics, it's even worse since there is a close group of people in the center that freeze out all other (elected) BOT members, and those at the center are political appointees. Sharp knives are out. Faculty are rightly concerned that there will be a new power play now putting decision-making in the hands of the BOT, and you will see scandals of the sort we recently saw at U. Illinois and U. Virginia, where political appointees try to take over the curriculum and end programs in favor of their own pet projects.

Not to mention the fact that the governor (Corbett) had been locking heads with Spanier in a power play over control of PSU before the Sandusky story broke.

I don't want to get into conspiracies but I do admit that in the back of my mind, the timing of Corbett ramping up the investigation into Sandusky (remember, Corbett was the prosecutorial bigwig in Centre County at the time of Sandusky's abuses, and he waited 2 full years after the Clinton County revelations in 2008 to put more than a single assistant--a newbie--on the case) coincided precisely with his battles with Spanier over control of both funding for PSU and the PSU branch campus system. Spanier has been totally emasculated. BUT, he still has his job. Corbett hasn't prosecuted him. The BOT, which now takes directions from Corbett, hasn't fired his former enemy Spanier. Sometimes it's better to keep your enemies close.

There's more to this story.

I know why most sports fans are focusing on the football side. I get it. I'm in favor of the death penalty for football too. But there is a much bigger side to this than football, and it's about the liabilities that administrations weigh when there are accusations, and it's also about educatin and state politics and business. Football is a sideshow. So yes, give it the DP, but the real game is being played elsewhere. There have been cover-ups of child abuse scandals recently at U. Michigan Medical school and cover-ups of murders at E. Michigan University, a child sex abuse scandal at Syracuse that also has elements of cover-up. These things are happening both inside and outside of sports, and the common thing is an interest in not being sued.

That's a way long post and represents a lot of thought and feeling. To be honest, I read every word, but still am having trouble putting it in the context of what most of us are aware of. So, please clarify:

Did Joe Paterno have too much influence at Penn State to the extent that he could pretty much get whatever he wanted either for himself or the football program? That's pretty much what Freeh says, but what do you think?

Was Paterno complicit in covering up Sandusky's crimes?

Should thoughtful and reasonable people view Paterno's legacy in very different terms than we did a year ago as a result?

Do you think that the Paterno family should return the money that was paid to Joe Pa under to what many of us sure looks like a coerced contract extension, even if they are not legally required to do so, because of his role in this affair?

Were the administration and trustees negligent in these matters, as Director Freeh has found?

Should the PSU football program be shut down for somewhere between one and four seasons, as many perplexed and concerned observers are suggesting?

The rest of what your write might well be the case and, hopefully, it will all come out in the end if indeed it is, but those are, to my mind at least, pretty much straightforward "Yes" or "No" type questions and, to someone who has followed this as closely as a reasonable amount of time and attention would permit, are the questions that come to mind right now.
 
That's a way long post and represents a lot of thought and feeling. To be honest, I read every word, but still am having trouble putting it in the context of what most of us are aware of. So, please clarify:

Did Joe Paterno have too much influence at Penn State to the extent that he could pretty much get whatever he wanted either for himself or the football program? That's pretty much what Freeh says, but what do you think?

I have a hard time believing that, because just before the 2008 season they were trying to kick his butt out, saying he was washed up, losing his mind, etc. The last few years of his tenure he wasn't even able to make visits to recruits' houses because of his health. He was literally wasting away.

Was Paterno complicit in covering up Sandusky's crimes?

It's certainly plausible, but at the same time, from testimony that McQueary gave in court, he specified that he didn't describe in graphic detail what EXACTLY he saw because he wasn't sure if Joe would understand and didn't want to shake an old man who "came from a different era". It sounds as if Joe's mind had already started to go at this point, and that was 10 years ago.

Should thoughtful and reasonable people view Paterno's legacy in very different terms than we did a year ago as a result?

You can't ignore what happened while he was coach the last decade, but at the same time, people need to remember that Sandusky was NOT an employee of Penn State at the time (he retired in 1999), and was only being granted access to the facilities based on the premise of the kids he was SUPPOSED to be helping through his 2nd Mile Charity (that last part make me shudder in disgust, that scumbag).

Do you think that the Paterno family should return the money that was paid to Joe Pa under to what many of us sure looks like a coerced contract extension, even if they are not legally required to do so, because of his role in this affair?

I certainly think they will donate much of that money to a charity at some point. Again though, Penn State fired him before any investigation had been concluded and he was never going to be charged with any crime (unlike Shultz and Curley). I've got to think the family is pretty upset about the way Joe is being portrayed in this matter and I personally wouldn't return it to the school after being hung out to dry like the school has done to him thus far.

Were the administration and trustees negligent in these matters, as Director Freeh has found?

ABSOLUTELY....there are MEMOS describing the implications of not turning Sandusky over to the authorities!!! Spanier will be the next to see charges coming his way.

Should the PSU football program be shut down for somewhere between one and four seasons, as many perplexed and concerned observers are suggesting?

In my opinion, absolutely not. This is a tragedy that happened within the setting of a football program and is a matter for REAL AUTHORITIES, not something like U of Miami that blatantly tried to break every rule in the NCAA handbook with pay to play, academic cheating, etc. This is something that needs to be dealt with harshly and severely, but within the correct context. This is a LEGAL matter, not something for the NCAA to try and assert moral authority over. Not to mention, if you shut down the football program, so many of the local businesses would go under. I just reasonably can't see how shutting it down benefits anyone, especially when you consider they've cleaned house already on the staff, save for 2 holdovers from the prior regime (Larry Johnson Sr, and Ron Vanderlinder)

The rest of what your write might well be the case and, hopefully, it will all come out in the end if indeed it is, but those are, to my mind at least, pretty much straightforward "Yes" or "No" type questions and, to someone who has followed this as closely as a reasonable amount of time and attention would permit, are the questions that come to mind right now.

Interesting piece of news:
http://www.businessinsider.com/penn...er-up-as-director-of-fbi-2012-7#ixzz20oRrde8h
 
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Although my heart will always lie with Ohio State, I am a Bachelor's candidate at Penn State set to graduate in the fall. The whole thing is a horrible shame, and yes..I do believe that Paterno's statue and legacy both should be torn down.

The death penalty though? That's a tough call. Popular belief states that the NCAA may have messed up in their SMU model, and when you have programs like Miami, FL buying prostitutes and drugs for their players and they basically get a love tap, I wouldn't want the death penalty as a permanent outcome in the Penn St situation.

I do believe that they should be punished SEVERLY. The sanctions should be felt for many, many years. More people should be fired, possibly even prosecuted. Scholarships should be taken away, bowl bans should be in effect for up to 10 years....but I also believe that the Penn State program itself should have the capability/opportunity to bring in a new regime, and somewhere down the line (even if it's 10+ years), they should be able to go back to allowing the future student athletes the chance at high level competition again.

Their legacy will always be tarnished. People may "forget" a bit after 5-10 years, or at least not be quite as focused of course, but they will never be the same already.

If I were the NCAA I would come down harder than anyone could imagine, but I would not bring a permanent punishment into it, just for the sake of some horrible decisions by several key men. Just my opinion.
 
I wonder where the poster went who was regularly visiting last season, claiming that "Penn State wouldn't get one minor sanction" out of this?

I'd be quite interested to hear his point of view these days, especially seeing as how he was extremely confident and argumentative (annoying) in his stance that "there would be zero reprecussions" for the PSU athletic dept. and the university itself.
 

I clicked on the link and read the piece; it's not "news" it's political journalism.

Director Freeh ran the FBI in what is almost universally regarded as a highly distinguished manner for eight years. Guys like Freeh make enemies who are out to tear them down. Without a lot of other evidence, I'm going to assume that the people behind this editorial fall in that category.
 
There is a lot at stake here than football.

Awesome and great write up, I appreciate the points you made, especially given your background.

So yes, give it the DP

DANGER, DANGER WILL ROBINSON, BAD CHOICE OF ACRONYM GIVEN THE CURRENT TOPIC.
 
Outside of the abuse (which goes without saying) the saddest thing to me is that if Joe Paterno had turned in Sandusky he would have cemented his legacy. Even people like me who don't care or didn't like the program (I was ambivalent about them before) would have loved the man for doing what was right instead of what was best for his legacy.

Instead worrying about his legacy and the success of his program cost him that legacy, for forever. Except for a few people with ****ed up priorities, anyways.

Also, he pooped his pants at a game once.
 
I'm of the belief that if the PSU campus/stadium was closer to Harrisburg than being a company town in the middle of nowhere, in which Spanier & Paterno controlled the police & press, then perhaps Sandusky's crime spree could've been discovered, stopped & prosecuted earlier, and some kids saved as a result.

Um, no. The Child Protection Services investigator of Sandusky was from Harrisburg.

Corbett and the state Attorney general were officers in State College at the time.

This goes far beyond State College, into state politics. As I remarked in my earlier post.
 
Paterno deserves to have his statue ripped down. What a heartless douche. And what is even more sick is the cult like culture he created at Penn State. I can't believe there are still idiots out there defending him.
 
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Did Joe Paterno have too much influence at Penn State to the extent that he could pretty much get whatever he wanted either for himself or the football program? That's pretty much what Freeh says, but what do you think?

Mostly the answer is yes--with regard to football. There are examples where this wasn't the case. Paterno was adamantly against the formation of the Big10 Network and had a blowout with Spanier over it. He was also confrontes with forced retirement in 2005 and promised it was his last season. Spanier told him he was going to fire him. Well, Paterno lost 1 game the next season and then told Spanier he was staying on. Finally, there is no doubt that Paterno ruled all to do with football (see my next post on this) but there were also cases where student affairs beat him to the punch.

Was Paterno complicit in covering up Sandusky's crimes?

I think there should have been strong suspicion there were crimes and even a hint of suspicion means you shouldn't cover up. Which is what Paterno did. Now, we don't know this absolutely but we can suspect from the 2/12/01 handwritten note that the strategy to cover up was devised by Spanier, Paterno and the lawyers. Why? They all spoke to one another (we know that for a fact) prior to the formation of the strategy.

Should thoughtful and reasonable people view Paterno's legacy in very different terms than we did a year ago as a result?


Yes, of course. He is tainted. My objection, however, is that people are coming out of the woodwork saying his emphasis on academics was a farce. So, what's the answer then? That PSU shouldn't care about academics anymore? They have been exposed, so now never again push for players to graduate with degrees? The irony of course is that Penn State is one of two schools in America (just 2!!) never to be sanctioned for NCAA rules violations (the other is Stanford), and here they are with the biggest sports scandal of all-time (it is not the biggest university scandal however).


Do you think that the Paterno family should return the money that was paid to Joe Pa under to what many of us sure looks like a coerced contract extension, even if they are not legally required to do so, because of his role in this affair?

Can of worms. Paterno was making $1.X million while his cohort was earning $4.X million. He wasn't a money grubber. And he had endowed 2 Chairs at the university (worth $5 million a pop) as well as a new part of the library. Seems to me, if you go after the money, or even try to remove his name from the donations he made, that there will be money traveling both ways. From the Paternos to the U. and the U. to the Paternos. Lots to be lost. I actually know one of the Paterno Chairs and think it would be a shame to eliminate that position.


Were the administration and trustees negligent in these matters, as Director Freeh has found?

I think Freeh is covering for the administration and the trustees and that things are much much worse than what he has mentioned. Remember: Spanier is still employed by PSU. Spanier is unidcted. The BOT hired Freeh. The BOT is loaded with political appointees by Corbett. Corbett is friends with Freeh. Paterno is everything they say he is, in this case, but the scales are tipped on him for deflection.

Should the PSU football program be shut down for somewhere between one and four seasons, as many perplexed and concerned observers are suggesting?

I would say, yes. It should be shut down. But I'm not the one who will get into the details, not when I think the academic side of the university is much more at risk. Football is a $50 million a year entity. The academic side is a $4 billion a year entity. The academic side stands to lose a lot if the BOT is empowered by this crisis (ever hear the saying, "Never waste a crisis?").

The rest of what your write might well be the case and, hopefully, it will all come out in the end if indeed it is, but those are, to my mind at least, pretty much straightforward "Yes" or "No" type questions and, to someone who has followed this as closely as a reasonable amount of time and attention would permit, are the questions that come to mind right now.

The emails from the Freeh report are already damning. There was a cover-up. Nonetheless, much more will come out that will sharpen questions of responsibility, and also, "Who knew?"
 
Sandusky was NOT an employee of Penn State at the time (he retired in 1999), and was only being granted access to the facilities based on the premise of the kids he was SUPPOSED to be helping through his 2nd Mile Charity (that last part make me shudder in disgust, that scumbag).

It is true that he was not officially a paid employee, but it also true that his retirement package consisted of having a Penn State office, telephone, locker room access, season tickets to football and basketball games, Penn State ID, keys to athletic facilities, money, paid trips to bowl games, and lots of other perks that should have been cut off at some point based upon the allegations, if not just based upon the 1998 incident.

He was not just sneaking onto campus of his own, or entering just to host charity-related events. He was essentially given the status of emeritas faculty and had free reign to go just about any place a paid employee would go.
 
Some have asked if indeed Paterno ruled football and athletics like a fiefdom, especially given the Vicky Triponey articles. Here's my response.

I think he ruled it like Triponey said he did. He'd been there for 50 years. The idea that Triponey was going to come in and tell him how to discipline football players is farfetched. Yet I know he disciplined people for minor infractions--as in the Enis and Jurevicius cases. The thing in the Triponey article that was totally incorrect in its criticism of Paterno was regarding the violent fight the football players were involved in. 4 of them were thrown off the team, including Phil Taylor who went to Baylor and Connecticut's own Chris Baker who went to Hampton (both now in the NFL). So, thought that was weird. But yes, it is bad for the coach to wield this much power.

I don't think the academic stuff (i.e. high graduation rates) was BS because I taught classes there and I was even mildly annoyed by the football program which required weekly reports from me. PITA. I wasn't getting paid to babysit, I was hardly being paid. But they tracked academic progress and forced players to take real courses in majors.

Paterno had old school softness for alcohol drinking and fights. "Boys will be boys." Thefts and fraud were what angered him. Old school: yes, you can hit people but have more respect for property!!! Nonetheless, look up the case of EZ Smith. Paterno publicly called his year-long suspension ludicrous. I don't know how they got that one over on Paterno but Smith was kicked out for a year for 2 open-container alcohol violations in the dorms in the same year.

Read this first: USATODAY.com - Penn State lineman booted from team over arrow incident

Note Paterno's attitude. The university punishes, but Paterno decides. Is it hidden? Or out in the open? Some people say this was cloak and dagger stuff, Paterno's secret rule. Yet Paterno talked openly about it for years. This was one crotchety old Brooklyn SOB. He was going to have his input. No doubt he bullied Triponey. Occasionally he lost, EZ Smith was off campus for a year because of student affairs (i.e. Triponey)

Read this quote: In 2004, after several incidents involving football players, Mr. Paterno told the Allentown Morning Call newspaper that the players weren't misbehaving any more than usual, but that such news was now more public. "I can go back to a couple guys in the '70s who drove me nuts," he said. "The cops would call me, and I used to put them in bed in my house and run their rear ends off the next day. Nobody knew about it. That's the way we handled it."

That being said, he ruled the fiefdom just like powerful people do. We see the same thing going on at Syracuse University, at U Michigan Med., we see it in corporations and the US military when it comes to whistleblowers, we saw it at PSU with the President who had a habit of whitewashing child abuse cases that had nothing to do with football or sports.

truthfully, I would be hard-pressed to imagine to top university where the football coach doesn't run roughshod over student affairs offices. Tennessee, USC, North Carolina, Ohio State, etc. Can anyone here name a school in which these people are cowed?

My experience is that we should never criticize athletics and football programs. The vast vast majority lose a ton of money every year (tens of millions), and when education budgets are cut by 10-15% and academic programs are shuttered, you're still told to shut up less the spotlight be directed at your department for impending cuts. The President at Texas A&M lost her job over such a fight, when the football program surprised her at the last minute with a $15 million loss. Florida State just had a similar scandal. Some high powered administrators will speak openly to you, but only in casual conversation. I had such a conversation with a Dean at U. Miami years ago who told me the program was filthy, that players attend bogus 1-week intersession courses, and cretins hang around the players. Now, the NCA may weigh in on PSU, but the NCAA is a PR organization because nowadays, with the APR penalties in place, many schools are operating like Miami used to, which is to stick players in bogus 1 week courses to pump up APR scores. Graduation is not a consideration in the APR. As long as you complete bogus courses, it doesn't matter if you're proceeding toward a degree. Look at North Carolina--they routed athletes to a totally bogus department.

In other words, the question of whether Paterno ruled PSU football with an iron fist is an automatic YES. One wonders whether there is any other paradigm.

If you're asking me if Paterno was a more powerful figure than the President who had the ear of the BOT, my answer is NO. Maybe equally powerful in their own ways, but the President is a well known political figure who even has national security clearance for the DOD. After all, the BOT fired Paterno back in November, and that was long before they discovered the recent emails. They didn't fire Spanier. And they still haven't, even after the emails. Who is more powerful? You tell me.
 
It is true that he was not officially a paid employee, but it also true that his retirement package consisted of having a Penn State office, telephone, locker room access, season tickets to football and basketball games, Penn State ID, keys to athletic facilities, money, paid trips to bowl games, and lots of other perks that should have been cut off at some point based upon the allegations, if not just based upon the 1998 incident.

He was not just sneaking onto campus of his own, or entering just to host charity-related events. He was essentially given the status of emeritas faculty and had free reign to go just about any place a paid employee would go.

Freeh uncovered evidence however that those perks were put in place prior to his hugging the kid in the showers in May 1998. It appears Sandusky was really forced into retirement by Paterno prior to his incident with the kid in 1998. Those perks may have been inducements for Sandusky to retire rather than end things acrimoniously since Second Mile was practically an arm of PSU football. After the authorities cleared him for the 1998 shower incident, PSU would be hardpressed legally to take back those perks. BUT, they could have said, NEVER EVER bring a child anywhere near here. I'm sure that could have stuck. Maybe they did, who knows, and Sandusky ignored them. He ignored a lot. Obviously.

Now, I was one who jumped to conclusions that Sandusky was fired for the 1998 incident, but Freeh presented it as otherwise. Sandusky's forced early retirement also fits with Paterno's pattern with his top assistant coaches. He mentioned to both Fran Ganter and Tom Bradley that they would not be candidates to succeed him, and like Sandusky, Ganter was forced into early retirement. Like Sandusky, Ganter also received perks, including a cushy PSU job after he stepped down as coordinator.
 
It doesn't seem to me that people are coming out of the woodwork saying Paterno's emphasis on academics was a farce. It seems to me rather that people are upset at his defenders bringing up that indisputable fact again and again, as if it makes up for covering up child rape.

Having the athletes take real classes, go to class, get solid grades, and graduate at a good rate is all great. We all value that aspect of the program. It is, however, very much beside the point and in comparison seems laughably insignificant.
 
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