I agree with Borges

[Brady'sButtBoy]

A couple other things here-

Is it mistreatment to allow Branch to go try and work out a deal with another team? By offering a trade they did the kid a favor to at least try and rectify the situation to Branch's liking. Branch may be pissed it didn't work out but he could at least appreciate a tiny bit that the Pats gave him an opportunity they didn't have to.

The Patriot's don't bargain correctly with their players? Just how would you like them to bargain? Like the Colts? Chiefs? Chargers? Titans? Giants? Seahawks? Vikings? Bengals? etc...none of them have won a single SB under current management. The Pat's player management style is most closely indentified with the Steelers and is it just coincidence these two teams have won four of the last five SB's?

As for the heated lockerroom whisperings Bogus reported - so what? Even the lunatic antics of TO were sympathized by some anonymous player's mutterings! There's always some nut willing to say nearly anything.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

This whole idea of the thing blowing up in the faces is something i dont get.

I agree. I'm sure Pioli expected at least 1 sorry team to show Branch the money. But he was also sure that said team wouldn't pony up a 1st+.

What he probably didn't expect was the unethical Cayut to file a grievance that has no basis whatever. I don't consider that a mistake on SP's part, though I doubt he'll ever do it again.

 

[MDPATSFAN]

One could argue that the Globe's front office is inept for paying Borges what they do.

In some cultures, Borges would be required to perform ritual suicide for his poor performance.


Hats off to the front office by not caving into this Tumor of a player. Short term pain, long term gain....

 

[40yrpatsfan]

I actually totally agree that though the extension was for 3 years, it should be counted as a four year offer.

But the fact that he's obligated to play this year for $1m can't be tossed out. Sure, another team can ignore this when trying to steal a player, but he's not under contract to them. He is to us - for $1m. That's important, and is the crux of the issue here, regardless of whether the Pats amortize his SB over 4 yrs instead of 3. It's a legal chip on the Patriots side.

I think if Cayut had elected to negotiate, the Pats may have met in the middle on this issue - perhaps go up $1-2m with this year's bonus in consideration for the fact that he is underpaid this year. But we'll never know now.

 

[brady2brown]

I agree that the Pats mis-calculated by letting Branch go out and solicit contracts with other teams. At the time I agreed with the move. Negotiations were going nowhere, and it seemed a way to get things jumpstarted.

However, in hindsight, it did blow up in their face.

I don't think so. The Pats needed to know if they would have Branch for the season or not. Would he come back? Would he not?

Weren't we all yapping about how we would need another WR if Branch wasn't on the field.

So they (the Pats) got things started. Let him find his value. He would either swign with the Pats after that or not. He found a better value, and he won't sign.

BUT NOW THE PATS KNOW THAT! And they acted immediately and went out and got their WR.

Instead of not knowing what their WR situation would be week after week throughout the season (Branch could return at any time), they are now stable.

Whether they are better with Gabriel or Branch is irrelevant. With Branch filing a grievance, the Pats now know Branch won't be showing up. They can now plan for games knowing their WR rotation. Now that they know Branch will sit for 10 games, they can plan on it.

How anyone can say they are worse off now than they were before giving Branch permission to shop himself is beyond me. I think those people should go back and read threads fromback then, and gauge the tone of our posts then and now.

 

[fgssand]

Above post rings true - they do know what they are facing now, I think (he could come back at any time).

Fact is he is under contract.

Fact is he was offered a decent initial contract, where was the counter?

Fact is if we did do away with the final year, the precedent would be set and what about all the other players?

How can the NFL allow players to get away with a grievance of this nature when the guy is under contract? How can the Patriots be sued for allegedly violating a verbal contract when Branch refuses to honor his written contract?

 

[brady2brown]

Yes, but the Pats letting him talk to other teams proved to be a mistake. The wedge between him and the team is even bigger now.

I hear what you are saying and agree the wedge is insurrmountable. But I think the wedge was ALREADY insurrmountable. I think Branch ALREADY was determined not to play in NE ever again.

As such, the letting him talk did not change Branch's mind and make him not want to play in NE. He had already decided that.

What has changed is that the Patriots now realize Branch's position, and know that he is serious.

ThePatriots' action is a mistake only if your successful outcome of this impasse required the return of Branch. If you needed Branch to be back then the Pats did screw up, because the Patriots let Branch PROVE to everyone that he wasn't coming back.

If you wanted the situation resolved, well the Pats action did that. Branch is gone, Gabriel is here, we have our WR core. Let the games begin.

But if you needed Branch to come back, then yeah, I fully understand your dissappointment.

 

[RAWKY]

A

I'm done drinking the Kool-Aid on every topic. Belichick is a great coach... an HOFer... but he screwed this up royally.

I would suggest that it is way to early to come to any determination on the outcome of the Pat's move to allow Branch to seek his own trade.

Time too judge this is the end of the season or perhaps sometime after the end of Branch in NE.

I remember all the bad press concerning Bledsoe and his being replaced by Brady after he was recovered and then all the bad presss when we traded him to Buffalo and even more bad press when Milloy left for the Buffs then the 31 nothing beating in our opening game at Buffalo and how the local press and even ESPN took shots at how BB runs the team and makes decisions on players.

Yet thru all that from this more distant perspective we can look back and say with the confidence of experience,

"BB MADE THE RIGHT DECISIONS IN ALL OF THOSE PERSONEL MOVES"

So i have complete confidence that BB made the right move this time also regardless of the local press's take on the situation.

Who would we rather have making personel decisions BB OR BORGES????

So lets sit back enjoy the season and time will reveal too us that which is presently a mystery.

And odds are IN BB WE TRUST WILL STILL BE THE MANTRA OF PAT"S FANS.

 

[smg93]

But the fact that he's obligated to play this year for $1m can't be tossed out. Sure, another team can ignore this when trying to steal a player, but he's not under contract to them. He is to us - for $1m. That's important, and is the crux of the issue here, regardless of whether the Pats amortize his SB over 4 yrs instead of 3. It's a legal chip on the Patriots side.

I do not disagree with this statement in anyway. My point was it was a decent opening to a contract negotiation. I think the Pats could still have come up with a better offer if only Chayut came back to the table like a man instead of an immature kid crying that the offer was "insulting".

Like I mentioned earlier, during negotiations you're first offer is not your best offer. If you thought Deion was looking for a 7million dollar a year offer and you wanted to pay six million per year, your opening offer would perhaps be around 5 million per year so both sides could negotiate and come up with an acceptable offer to both sides. That was the primary point of my statement that the extension should be considered for what it is, a four year rather than a 3 year offer.

That's the only way to compare contract numbers in an apples to apples manner with the jets and seahawks' latest offer to Branch. Obviously of course you would have to in finance parlance, "Present Value" the Pats offer to account for the fact that you are technically re-doing his final year and discount the offers of both the seahawks and jets because they still have to come up with adequate compensation to the Pats. But that may be getting into too many nuances that most people on this board don't really care about.

 

[Pats726]

I don't think so. The Pats needed to know if they would have Branch for the season or not. Would he come back? Would he not?
So they (the Pats) got things started. Let him find his value. He would either swign with the Pats after that or not. He found a better value, and he won't sign.
BUT NOW THE PATS KNOW THAT! And they acted immediately and went out and got their WR.
Instead of not knowing what their WR situation would be week after week throughout the season (Branch could return at any time), they are now stable.
Whether they are better with Gabriel or Branch is irrelevant. With Branch filing a grievance, the Pats now know Branch won't be showing up. They can now plan for games knowing their WR rotation. Now that they know Branch will sit for 10 games, they can plan on it.
How anyone can say they are worse off now than they were before giving Branch permission to shop himself is beyond me. I think those people should go back and read threads fromback then, and gauge the tone of our posts then and now.

That was what I was thinking the past weeks...they were not going out and getting a wideout because the door with Branch was still oprn..it is CLEAR they wanted Branch..it is also CLEAR Branch has not wanted to play for the Patriots//so those who think this last effort by the Patriots caused the split have a lot of revisionist thinking in their heads. This split occured when Branch and Chuyut have not negotiated in good faith..have not counteresed offer and have basically done all they can NOT to negotiate. Branch did NOT show up at camp..and the demand of not wishing to be Franchised was demanded. THAt to me was key, for it was the money clearly that Branch wanted, but the second part of that..playing foir the Patriots was what he did NOT want at all. It is clear the Patriots had to do something to stop the impasse and to know one way or another what was happneing with Branch. It was a brilliant move by them as it got him off any possible fence...made it even clearer. The Patriots got their WR and will move on...Branch is irrelevant to this team now. They will make use of what he wants to get a high pick and or player and move on without him. As for Branch, I have little good to say about him..he's a greedy phony at best and I hope the nad karma comes down on him big time for his actions. Those who criticize the Pats FO simply do NOT get it...what did they do wrong?? They have engaged negotiations with Branch fairly in fact beyond fair when they did not have to. They were under absolutely NO obligation to have ANY negotiation at all with him and yet they have been in that foir some time. Branch on the other hand has acrted like a 2 year old whiney baby wher ethe word fair is completely out of his world. They did what they had to...and now they are moving on.

 

[brady2brown]

I actually totally agree that though the extension was for 3 years, it should be counted as a four year offer.

This is where I get confused. What is an extension of a contract and what is giving someone a new contact? Here are my difinitions:

I think of an extension as taking something that exists and extending it further into the future.

An extension adds to the existing contract.

If you tear up part of the original contract, you are not really extending the contract, you are replacing it with a new one.

I understand it isn't as simple as this, but this is how I keep extensions separate from re-writing contracts, at least in my own mind.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Borges is an *******. If he really wanted to inform, he could but he would rather throw out bull-**** bombs,.

Now, I have heard that there is a scale for this just as there is a scale for trading draft choices. If a player's contract pays $800,000 or more then the compensation is a #1 pick. I heard that on ESPN radio last Friday on my way back from the golf coarse.

I'd like to find that scale but I don't know where to look for it.

Borges could have found that out and printed it, it he wanted to inform. He supposedly has all the NFL contacts.

 

[lobster]

from Borges:
...tight end Daniel Graham, who is set to become a free agent next season and has already told friends, "They got one chance to bid on me. Then I'm gone"....

Graham isn't the type of TE the Pat's want anymore so I predict he will be given his free agency.

 

[p8ryts]

Branch is all about the money. That's all he cared about. The approach taken by Branch and his agent was strictly to drive a wedge between the player and the team so he could get to free agency for a pay bigger than he would get with the PATS. The Pats offered him a fair package.

When somebody like Graham makes an emotional statement you disregard it. Remember, "they hate their coach". That lasted about a week. So will this one.

I can't wait to see what Gabriel brings to the offense.

The media will spew their negatives for a week and then its a new team. It's that way every year.

 

[BelichickFan]

Graham isn't the type of TE the Pat's want anymore so I predict he will be given his free agency.

Hopefully they will need his blocking less with a better OL. Regardless, I'd like to re-sign everyone but except for Belichick and about 6 guys, they're all along for the ride.

 

[Bella*chick]

I would suggest that it is way to early to come to any determination on the outcome of the Pat's move to allow Branch to seek his own trade.

Time too judge this is the end of the season or perhaps sometime after the end of Branch in NE.

I remember all the bad press concerning Bledsoe and his being replaced by Brady after he was recovered and then all the bad presss when we traded him to Buffalo and even more bad press when Milloy left for the Buffs then the 31 nothing beating in our opening game at Buffalo and how the local press and even ESPN took shots at how BB runs the team and makes decisions on players.

Yet thru all that from this more distant perspective we can look back and say with the confidence of experience,

"BB MADE THE RIGHT DECISIONS IN ALL OF THOSE PERSONEL MOVES"

So i have complete confidence that BB made the right move this time also regardless of the local press's take on the situation.

Who would we rather have making personel decisions BB OR BORGES????

So lets sit back enjoy the season and time will reveal too us that which is presently a mystery.

And odds are IN BB WE TRUST WILL STILL BE THE MANTRA OF PAT"S FANS.

This really sums it up as far as I'm concerned. I remember all too well the hysteria that accompanied the Milloy release. It was worse than this, that's for sure. Everyone calling for Belichick (AND Brady, after his poor performance in that first Buffalo game) to be run out of town.

We win the Superbowl the next two years and everyone's a genius.

Could it be that because we "only" made it a game into the playoffs last year as opposed to 3 in a row (which has never been done anyway) that the grumbling starts again? Or in Borges' case, the grumbling just never ended.

I will never understand how one can celebrate the Patriots victories without acknowledging the way they got there, personnel-wise. It hasn't changed. It isn't going to change. Get used to it. It also works, in this day and age. It is an attempt to put a team that can COMPETE FOR A SUPERBOWL EVERY YEAR. Note I didn't say win it, necessarily (though we have been doing a good job that, as well). I said compete. This is the way to do it. The alternative is ending up with a bunch of overpaid egos who produce way too little. There are a bazillion examples in the NFL of this happening.

Is the Patriot way the nicest? The least cutthroat? Nope. But that is not and was never the goal.

I trust BB and Pioli to do their best to put a competitive team on the field every year. Not to keep things sunshine and roses for RON FRICKIN' BORGES and the hypercritical Boston media. And that's what they have done.

And Deion did NOT handle this well, no matter how you look at it.

 

[smg93]

This is where I get confused. What is an extension of a contract and what is giving someone a new contact? Here are my difinitions:

I think of an extension as taking something that exists and extending it further into the future.

An extension adds to the existing contract.

If you tear up part of the original contract, you are not really extending the contract, you are replacing it with a new one.

I understand it isn't as simple as this, but this is how I keep extensions separate from re-writing contracts, at least in my own mind.

I just look at it in its simplest form. For the next four years, I will be paid to play football. The pats are offering me my $1 million this year + X amount next year, Y amount the year after and Z amount in the fourth year.

$1 million + X + Y + Z = TC, where TC = total compensation I will receive in the four year duration of the contract. TP divided by four would obviously give me the average annual compensation over that period.

The jets and seahawks are offering a contract let's say for 4 years and $24 million or an average annual salary of $6 million per year.

So I look at the 3 year extension in Real World dollars. Over the next four year period, how much will I be making in TC (Total Compensation) and in average annual salary in the Patriots offer, the Jets offer, and the Seahawks offer.

This is why I consider the extension to be a 4 year package for all intents and purposes. Semantics aside, that's what it is in real world dollars.

 

[QuiGon]

I Like Branch as much as the next guy. But there's something that needs to be said. He's frail, doesn't always play a full season. And too many times I've seen him hit the turf or, head out of bounds to avoid contact. I think he plays a little soft.

I agree with this. In fact, I think one of the reasons he's so desperate for the big money right now is he knows his future health status is uncertain.

 

[BelichickFan]

I Like Branch as much as the next guy. But there's something that needs to be said. He's frail, doesn't always play a full season. And too many times I've seen him hit the turf or, head out of bounds to avoid contact. I think he plays a little soft.

He's like a Colts' WR in that respect. I assume the Patriots told him to do it to help the little guy stay healthy.

 

[Murphys95]

I do not disagree with this statement in anyway. My point was it was a decent opening to a contract negotiation. I think the Pats could still have come up with a better offer if only Chayut came back to the table like a man instead of an immature kid crying that the offer was "insulting".

Like I mentioned earlier, during negotiations you're first offer is not your best offer.

Excellent posts on the topic, smg93.

As for the issue of lowballing, I look at it this way.

The Patriots offered Branch a 3 year, $19 millon extension. This contract, averaged over the next 4 years would make Branch the 17th highest paid receiver in the league. Remember that number, 17.

Now take a look at Branch's statistical rankings for 2005 (his best season):

Receptions: 15th
Yards: 20th
YAC: 25th
TDs: 29th
Thrown to: 20th

Was the Patriots offer unreasonable? Was the Patriots offer unfair as a starting point in a negotiation (as smg93 has diligently pointed out)?

BTW, the average of those 5 statistical categories comes to 21st....rounded down.

Lowball? I don't think so.