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I agree with Borges

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by oldrover, Sep 3, 2006.

  1. oldrover

    oldrover Rookie

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    And his column today. This Branch situation was handled horribly. The Pats say a guy like Branch is everything they want... then they lowball him. If you're a Pats player and see this happen, how do you think it won't happen to you?

    I'm done drinking the Kool-Aid on every topic. Belichick is a great coach... an HOFer... but he screwed this up royally.
  2. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Remember he is under his original contract with us for one year. After that our offer averages over 6 mil a year.

    Branch wants to rip up the last year of his contract.

    If we compare the average dollars for a new contract with offers they are almost the same.

    Of course these "offers" are only words until someone makes a trade offer.

    He is under contract after all.

    What would you do differently?
  3. BillD

    BillD Rookie

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    I Like Branch as much as the next guy. But there's something that needs to be said. He's frail, doesn't always play a full season. And too many times I've seen him hit the turf or, head out of bounds to avoid contact. I think he plays a little soft.
  4. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Who lowballed who?

    Branch was the one who didn't honor the contract.

    The Pats aren't going to cave for ANY player in ANY season.

    Get that through your mind, and you will rest happily.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2006
  5. NE39

    NE39 Rookie

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    I agree that the Pats mis-calculated by letting Branch go out and solicit contracts with other teams. At the time I agreed with the move. Negotiations were going nowhere, and it seemed a way to get things jumpstarted.

    However, in hindsight, it did blow up in their face. Branch has dug in even further, filing grievances to try and get out.

    I guess everyone makes mistakes sometime. The best thing at this point would probably be to trade him and move on. I don't want it lingering all season.
  6. DSal

    DSal Old fart and proud of it!

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    I get a kick out of everyone who says Branch got lowballed.
    He signed an incentive laden contract that at the time all parties agreed was fair and equitable - he needs to live with it.
    He is not the driving force in this offense - Mr. Brady would be the man for that.
    He was offered a contract averaging 6 mil/yr. after his current contract is up
    If he stays and is franchised next year he'll be among the top 5 paid WR's in the league.

    Lowballed???????????????????????????????????????????
  7. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    It takes two parties to negotiate.
  8. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They got a one year younger guy yesterday who had half of last year's Branch production (Deion's best ever, btw) cathching errant missiles thrown by Kerry Collins, for godssake......in a weak RB offense where opposing D's played Nickel 80% of the time. What can he do in ours???????

    That's 50% of Branch for 10% of the money. And if they lose Branch they'll get AT LEAST a 2nd rounder for him.

    That's freakin SYMPHONIC.
  9. vyrago

    vyrago Rookie

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  10. Patsbacker

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    Brilliant!...well said
  11. DSal

    DSal Old fart and proud of it!

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  12. NE39

    NE39 Rookie

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    Yes, but the Pats letting him talk to other teams proved to be a mistake. The wedge between him and the team is even bigger now.
  13. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't see the lowball argument or that the Pats screwed up, not just drinking the koolaid, primarily he is under contract. Secondly, his agent screwed up by going public and bad mouthing the Pats, doing this polarized Deion from this team. Thirdly, the contract offered was not that bad, we do not know all the details of the Jets and Seahawks, but we do know the Jets offer had a "funky" structure.

    I do not think you will ever see Deion in a Pats uniform again and predict it will be resolved somehow with another team, looks like the Seahawks, before an arbitrator rules.
  14. teamplay

    teamplay Rookie

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    Before anyone can say that BB "lowballed" Deion, wouldn't it be necessary to refuse an offer? The Pats made two reasonable (if not delicious) offers to Branch, which his agent chose to ignore and not counteroffer! It's Branch and his agent who cut off negotiations -- in my view, to shoot his way out of town. Failure to counteroffer tells me that Branch wanted only one thing: get a team other than NE to tear up the last year of his contract and collect $6m for 5 or 6 years a la Reggie Wayne. He may get that from Seattle, but saying that BB lowballed Deion in the absence of a counteroffer is ridiculous!

    People are saying that letting Deion test the market blew up in the Pats' face. I think they knew exactly what the scenarios were: 1) he doesn't get a king's offer and re-signs with NE, or 2) he gets the offer he wants, and the Pats' move on with compensation and no cloud over the season. (No one's talking about the distraction of DB sitting out while WRs get injured, drop balls, etc.)

    If BB did half the things Borges advocates, he'd be Herm Edwards or some other bottom dweller.
  15. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

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    While your point seems correct, I have a hard time believing that the Patriots couldn't have been able to predict this outcome. Did we really think that we would recieve anything close to two number 1s? Or that when we didn't receive what we wanted that Denion would not react well? Thus, I have to believe the the Pats knew the outcome and it's part of the plan. That said, it doesn't seem like the best way to either retain current players or to attract free agents.
  16. sarge

    sarge Rookie

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    Considering Branch was holding the Pats hostage pretty much, if the Pats get a 1st from Seattle, I would have to say the Pats made out like Bandits.

    They will gotten Gabriel and a first for Branch and a 5th.

    So if that happens, I think the FO will walk away smelling like roses.

    That said, I would rather have Branch. I guess I misunderstood some of the initial explenations of the Pats first offers. I think if they made the same offer but had it kick in a year earlier, we may not have been witnessing this mess!

    AS far as BorgASS, his opinion is meaningless as it is based on nothing other then his hatred for BB. Even when he tries to back up his opinion with the facts, it is BorgASS trying to find events to back up his preconcieved agenda, not the facts helping him to come up with is opinion.
  17. sarge

    sarge Rookie

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    The fact that the Pats have asked for 2 number ones has been nothing but speculation the whole time.
  18. teamplay

    teamplay Rookie

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  19. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    He wasn't honoring his contract before and he wasn't negotiating.

    How was that better?
  20. oldrover

    oldrover Rookie

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    Don't get me wrong: Branch has acted like an idiot during this whole thing.

    And Borges loves stirring the pot. However, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I just see a consistent approach by the Pats in these FA things (and yes, I understand Branch is not an FA): lowball, wait, and then try to swoop in at the end if another team outbids them. To date, it hasn't worked very well... IMHO they need to upgrade the level of contact with their players during the negotiations. I'm not saying offer more, just make the players feel wanted. JMHO.
  21. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    But the mess when every player on the roster wanted to tear up the last year of theit original contract would have been something to see.
  22. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    $6M a year isn't lowballing. Honestly it's more than I would give him although I wouldn't have complained if he's accepted it.
  23. DSal

    DSal Old fart and proud of it!

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    There's a right way and a wrong way for a player to approach renegotiating.
    Right way - Richard Seymour - keep it between the 2 parties, out of the papers

    Wrong way - Deion and Chayut

    If the players want warm and fuzzy, they need to approach it the way Seymour and his agent did
  24. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here's Borg-ass's latest salvo. He keeps harping on this theme that the Pats are cheap and don't treat players fairly. OK, suppose everything he says is true. What would the solution be and how should Belipioli conduct matters differently? Does it simply boil down to them needing to be "nicer" to people in wrRONg's eyes?

    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2006/09/03/long_shot_hits_the_jackpot/?page=2

    It became fashionable for some Patriots toadies in and out of the media to attack not Deion Branch but his agent, Jason Chayut, since Branch's summer-long holdout began, but Chayut proved his point Friday. He was right all along when he said the Patriots were lowballing his client.
    The Patriots' plan to make a public display of challenging Chayut to find Branch a better offer exploded in their faces when he came back with not one but two far in excess of what New England said it was willing to pay. Of course, many of the Patriots sympathizers continued to say this only meant Branch would be overpaid, a charge that now extends to at least five of the league's 32 teams since they either hired wide receivers in the offseason, re-signed their own, or were willing to pay Branch what he felt was fair.



    Just as significant is that no one in the Patriots locker room feels Branch deserves to be treated this way. ``How does he come back now?" one of Branch's teammates said. ``Only if they pay him the money."
    The Patriots can, of course, continue to run their business however they like. They can continue to treat their employees the way they do and end up with ones like David Givens and Adam Vinatieri refusing to even return last-second phone calls from Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli before they leave. Or they can create situations like the one with tight end Daniel Graham, who is set to become a free agent next season and has already told friends, ``They got one chance to bid on me. Then I'm gone."
    What has gone on with Branch was a serious miscalculation. More important, as one of Branch's teammates said last week, ``If this is how they treat a guy who's everything they say they want, what are they going to do to the rest of us?"
  25. 40yrpatsfan

    40yrpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Patriots have treated both David Givens and Deion Branch well, and have been very open and ethical about it. They made many overtures to extend both of them well over a year before their contracts ended, for very good money. Felger and Borges keep saying that these situations have been mismanaged, but short of making them the highest paid recievers in the game, there simply aren't any magic answers.

    The Pats are 3-time SB champs. All the downtrodden teams want a piece of their team, and are willing to pay over and above for it. And many of those teams have huge cap space because they haven't been spending as much as the Pats do for their players, consistently spending to the cap. With 32 teams, it only takes 1 or 2 loser teams to entice a guy away. That's actually what the system is designed to do - it's difficult for teams to keep their above-average players at the end of their rookie contracts.

    We made more than fair offers to both guys. The difference is that Givens played out his contract, while Branch is trying to shoot his way out of his. What's going on right now should not have happened until next summer, and the NFL had better address this somehow. Branch should have no right to be doing what he's doing.
  26. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The "rest of them" will need to decide if they want to stay.

    Bottom line, there's only a few Patriots we cannot lose. Belichick. Brady. Seymour. That's probably it for talent. Throw in a couple of guys like Bruschi and Harrison and that's about it.

    Regarding Graham's comment, I hope we keep him but he's not a guy we can't win without. The rest of the team may not like it but Belichick, Brady and Seymour really are the Patriots.

    Oh, I'd kind of hate to lose Wilfork too.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2006
  27. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, BF, the quote you refer to was from Wrong Bogus, not Tunescribe. (Tunescribe was merely posting his column piece).
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2006
  28. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks, fixed, I guess that was misleading :)
  29. b72s

    b72s Rookie

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    market Value

    Just because one team wants to overpay a player (Seattle) that does not mean it is market value aka George Steibrenner is willing to overpay as well as Dan Schneider. Plus the dollars are not that far off.

    Plus Pats need to draw the line for other players consider this tactic after Seymour's success could not have everyone doing this.................... Chayut's thinking if Sey can do it so can Deion....NOT!!!!

    Too much bad blood for Branch to come back without firing his agent.


    PS No one reads the old media rags anymore
  30. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    An extension is a new contract. Here's why I think that a 3-year extension is a 4-year deal.

    Branch's cash intake under his current contract
    2006 - $1.045 million
    2007 - $0
    2008 - $0
    2009- $0

    Under the Patriots' proposal
    2006 - $5.45 million
    2007 - $5.5 million
    2008 - $4.4 million
    2009 - $4.85 million

    Branch's cash intake increases all 4 years and the Patriots are able to prorate the 2006 signing bonus over 4 years. That is why I think that it is a 4-year deal

    Nick Cafardo reported in the Boston Globe:
    "Some interesting tidbits from the 22-page contract of Patriots quarterback Tom Brady, which was signed May 4:
    Here is how the first line reads: ''TERM: This contract covers 5 football seasons and will begin on the date of execution or March 1, 2005 whichever is later and end Feb. 28 or 29, 2010 unless extended, terminated or renewed as specified elsewhere in this contract."

    I take the above as Brady's contract including the 2005 and 2006 seasons even though he was already under contract for them. What 5 seasons does Brady's contract cover??

    IMO, 2005/2006/2007/2008/2009 and the Patriots had an option for 2010 which they exercised in 2006.

    Look at the standard NFL contract in the CBA:

    1. TERM. This contract covers __________ football season(s), and will begin on the date of execution or March 1, __________, whichever is later, and end on February 28 or 29, __________, unless extended, terminated, or renewed as specified elsewhere in this contract.

    If Branch's extension is going to say that it covers 4 football seasons (from Brady's contract it would), then, IMO, it is a 4-year deal and that its value should be divided by 4 to come with its APY.

    Side note to DaBruinz, IMO, this is not BS thinking. This is a reasonable position supported by facts.

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