Honest Assessment of AFC East

[Brady-To-Branch]

Here's the real difference:
Pats fans say they are entrenched because they are biased...
Fin fans say they are ready to take pats because they are biased...

All the unbiased people say the fins had a good offseason and closed the gap while the Pats took a step back... Hmmmm.... I wonder who's really right?

No, the Pats fans are confident that their team, which has won 3 SBs in a 4 year period, won the AFC East and advanced to the Divisional round despite enduring a stroke and a sudden retirement from 2 of their LBs, had an injury decimated O-line, Secondary, and Running Back corps, while having to plug the holes with ineffective veterans, and a brutal 1st half schedule.

Any unbiased clear-thinking fan would look at the Pats easier schedule, improved secondary and running game, and a healthier overall roster.

To think that the Pats will decline because of the loss of Vinatieri is just plain silly.

It's not like Vinatieri is the only one who can make clutch kicks.

 

[feelthepain]

No, the Pats fans are confident that their team, which has won 3 SBs in a 4 year period, won the AFC East and advanced to the Divisional round despite enduring a stroke and a sudden retirement from 2 of their LBs, had an injury decimated O-line, Secondary, and Running Back corps, while having to plug the holes with ineffective veterans, and a brutal 1st half schedule.

Any unbiased clear-thinking fan would look at the Pats easier schedule, improved secondary and running game, and a healthier overall roster.

To think that the Pats will decline because of the loss of Vinatieri is just plain silly.

It's not like Vinatieri is the only one who can make clutch kicks.

Is all that a gurantee??? No!!!!! unbiased clear-thinking fan doesn't exist on either side of this argument. And if one was looking at this from the outside they wouldn't just hand the division over to the Pats.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Is all that a gurantee??? No!!!!! unbiased clear-thinking fan doesn't exist on either side of this argument. And if one was looking at this from the outside they wouldn't just hand the division over to the Pats.

Unless injuries ravage the team again, the Pats will finish no worse than 12-4.

 

[feelthepain]

Unless injuries ravage the team again, the Pats will finish no worse than 12-4.

Well your opinion is noted. But All you have to support your opinion is hope, nothing more.

 

[CrazyDave]

Well your opinion is noted. But All you have to support your opinion is hope, nothing more.

Right back at ya. Only more so.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

everyone is subjective in some form or another - we can all agree on that. The fan takes the positives from the offseason and says the glass is half-full. The so-called experts have to find some criticism to be 'objective' about, and therefore look at the teams offseason losses and say the glass is half-empty.
My experience is that the truth is somewhere in the middle and much more likely to be greatly influenced by the luck factor. Luck in avoiding serious injuries to key players, luck in getting a key bounce (fumble) during a critical point in a game, luck in not having the officials screw up some calls at inopportune times, etc, luck in getting a decent schedule - bye week, etc. But luck can be mitigated in some ways - with regards to injuries, Belichick keeps a deep roster with a good 'middle class' so usually a replacement player pressed into service s not a significant dropoff in quality. Then the ship keeps on sailing even with the inevitable injuries. Only one or two key players on the PATS could have injuries that might sink the ship. Seymore missed time last year as well as Harrison. Law in prior years. We Pats fans are hopefull and optimistic that this years injuries won't be to many of our important players like it was last year: Harrison, Seymore, Light, Bruschi, Graham, etc all missed many games last year and they are all in the top 10-15players on our team. And yet we still won a playoff game. So that is why we have optimism this year (plus a decent draft to offset the inevitable offseason losses).

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Well your opinion is noted. But All you have to support your opinion is hope, nothing more.

No, I'm basing my opinion based on recent history. You just don't write off a team that has still has BB and Brady and has most of its 3x SBC nucleus still intact. What have the Dolphins accomplished recently? Had the Pats tried to win their last game in 2005, rather than manufacturing a bye week, Miami would be 8-8. That's my point.

Based on recent history, all Miami fans have is hope. Hope that Duante will have another 2004-type season, while coming off a knee injury and playing in a tougher AFC. Hope that young players like Manuel Wright will have breakout seasons. Hope that somehow Saban will turn around Miami like BB did with the Pats in 2001. Problem with the last is the that the 2003-2006 teams, on paper at the start of the season, have been better than the '01 Pats.

NE vs Miami ~ Position BY Position:

QB: NE
RB: even
WR: NE (extention or not, Branch will play in '06)
OL: NE
TE: NE

DL: NE
LB: NE (Vrabel, Bruschi, and Colvin are better than Thomas and the rest)
S: even (assuming RH is still out or has not returned to pre-injury form)
CB: NE (Samuel and Hobbs are better than Will Allen and whoever)

ST: even (who knows? Special Teams play can vary over the course of the season. A kicker is only as good as his next kick, coverage teams can do well until they allow a return TD, etc.)

 

[Jacky Roberts]

Is all that a gurantee??? No!!!!! unbiased clear-thinking fan doesn't exist on either side of this argument. And if one was looking at this from the outside they wouldn't just hand the division over to the Pats.

When the preseason divisional picks come out, the only "unbiased" writers picking Miami in the AFC East will be Hank Goldberg and Den Lebatard. NE owns this division this year and for the forseeable future unless something happens to Brady. Amazing what a handful of garbage wins late in the season can do to overinflate a team. Miami will be improved, but I dont think they are better than 9-7.

 

[Chevagus]

No, I'm basing my opinion based on recent history. You just don't write off a team that has still has BB and Brady and has most of its 3x SBC nucleus still intact. What have the Dolphins accomplished recently? Had the Pats tried to win their last game in 2005, rather than manufacturing a bye week, Miami would be 8-8. That's my point.

Based on recent history, all Miami fans have is hope. Hope that Duante will have another 2004-type season, while coming off a knee injury and playing in a tougher AFC. Hope that young players like Manuel Wright will have breakout seasons. Hope that somehow Saban will turn around Miami like BB did with the Pats in 2001. Problem with the last is the that the 2003-2006 teams, on paper at the start of the season, have been better than the '01 Pats.

NE vs Miami ~ Position BY Position:

QB: NE
RB: even
WR: NE (extention or not, Branch will play in '06)
OL: NE
TE: NE

DL: NE
LB: NE (Vrabel, Bruschi, and Colvin are better than Thomas and the rest)
S: even (assuming RH is still out or has not returned to pre-injury form)
CB: NE (Samuel and Hobbs are better than Will Allen and whoever)

ST: even (who knows? Special Teams play can vary over the course of the season. A kicker is only as good as his next kick, coverage teams can do well until they allow a return TD, etc.)

Nope, nothing biased about that. Not surprisingly, NE is better in all but 2 positions and worse in none. An amazing accomplishment especially on the defensive side of the ball where the Dolphins had a better pass D last year (Pats were better than Miami against the run), had more sacks (49 to 40) and allowed fewer points. You make a nice objective observation there.

But let's not forget the offense. The patriots did have a better pass offense than the fins but didn't have miami's run game (94.9 yds/game v. 118.6) which speaks both to the RBs and O-line. You picked up Maroney, we lost williams but it's not known the effect on these stats since Brown rushed as well as Williams did last year anyway. Miami also allowed 26 sacks last year while NE allowed 32. Yes, Offensive Line is an obvious win for NE. New England did score more points, however.

The problem is you think Miami fans have written off NE, which I would say most clearly haven't. NE has been the top dog for several years and until they are knocked off they remain top dogs. However, you fail to even credit another team's improvements. You say we only have hope but ignore the fact that in certain aspects Miami fared better than NE last year and continued to improve in the offseason (though I think NE did as well). Yes, we have all the hopes you mentioned. And I imagine you should hope that your past success can sustain itself without Weis and Crennel.

 

[CrazyDave]

So that's what you guys are looking for? Credit for improvements?
Hooray! Another preseason title for the Phins.
This is a yearly event.

 

[Chevagus]

So that's what you guys are looking for? Credit for improvements?
Hooray! Another preseason title for the Phins.
This is a yearly event.

It's as valid as resting on your laurels

 

[SunnyDenmark]

I think considering what looks like a weak overall division - Miami could have a decent record. Then again - all of the offseason changes could ALSO work out well for the Jets and Buffalo. Then some of those 'easy' wins we (NE / MIA) are counting on could disappear. I think the thing that would worry me (if I were a Phins fan) - is that you have alot of offseason changes: players (lots of FA), coaches, and a relatively new system. It may be a good system but players take time to get used to it and (hopefully) excel in it. Here in NE (while writing this from Denmark), we have some (minor) personnel changes but our system is established to a vast majority of our players and we have only one coaching change of note - and our new DC is promoted from within. I think that is why most of my fellow Pats fans are alittle more (smug) in our belief that the offseason changes will work out possibly better for the Pats than for the Phins - (naturally that is what we hope). We must all remember that change does not necessarily equate to improvement although we all hope it will. And Miami has had many more changes this offseason than NE.

 

[CrazyDave]

It's as valid as resting on your laurels

Not sure exactly what you mean by that.
No disrespect, but you have to understand that this conversation goes on every year about this time. We'rer on the slide, they're on the way up.
We all know how it's turned out. Maybe we're "resting on our laurels", maybe we're confident. You must understand that those of us who follow this team closely know what we see. We know (obviously) what championship teams "look like". So if we seem a little blase' about Miami's "upgrade" mayb e it's just that we're not easily impressed.
i'm glad to see the phins improving, it makes for a fun rivalry again. I'm looking forward to the games more this year than in years past.
That said, there is a gap between the two, and i'm not convinced that miami has closed that gap.
We've heard it before, maybe we're jaded.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Am I The Only One Who Finds In Amusing That Miami Webjockies Are Begging Us To Respect Their Big Improvements On Paper?

 

[Chevagus]

Not sure exactly what you mean by that.
No disrespect, but you have to understand that this conversation goes on every year about this time. We'rer on the slide, they're on the way up.
We all know how it's turned out. Maybe we're "resting on our laurels", maybe we're confident. You must understand that those of us who follow this team closely know what we see. We know (obviously) what championship teams "look like". So if we seem a little blase' about Miami's "upgrade" mayb e it's just that we're not easily impressed.
i'm glad to see the phins improving, it makes for a fun rivalry again. I'm looking forward to the games more this year than in years past.
That said, there is a gap between the two, and i'm not convinced that miami has closed that gap.
We've heard it before, maybe we're jaded.

Honestly, no one knows how Miami's changes will shake out so there's certainly cause to be skeptical on everyone's part. Speaking for myself, and probably most Fin fans, the 4 years prior to last year were trying because of Wanny and Spielman screwed up everything they could get their hands on. If miami fans are overreacting to the offseason changes it's because we now believe the team is being run by competent people and our talent is pretty good right now. (of course, this is where Miami and Pats fans will disagree). I don't predict the collapse of the patriots but nor will I concede the division to them (though I give NE the edge). NE certainly has to be healthier this year than last so they'll be a better team, no doubt. I just hope miami's improvements justify the expectations all the fans have. Should make for an interesting year.

 

[Welker83]

No, I'm basing my opinion based on recent history. You just don't write off a team that has still has BB and Brady and has most of its 3x SBC nucleus still intact. What have the Dolphins accomplished recently? Had the Pats tried to win their last game in 2005, rather than manufacturing a bye week, Miami would be 8-8. That's my point.

Based on recent history, all Miami fans have is hope. Hope that Duante will have another 2004-type season, while coming off a knee injury and playing in a tougher AFC. Hope that young players like Manuel Wright will have breakout seasons. Hope that somehow Saban will turn around Miami like BB did with the Pats in 2001. Problem with the last is the that the 2003-2006 teams, on paper at the start of the season, have been better than the '01 Pats.

NE vs Miami ~ Position BY Position:

QB: NE
RB: even
WR: NE (extention or not, Branch will play in '06)
OL: NE
TE: NE

DL: NE
LB: NE (Vrabel, Bruschi, and Colvin are better than Thomas and the rest)
S: even (assuming RH is still out or has not returned to pre-injury form)
CB: NE (Samuel and Hobbs are better than Will Allen and whoever)

ST: even (who knows? Special Teams play can vary over the course of the season. A kicker is only as good as his next kick, coverage teams can do well until they allow a return TD, etc.)

Can anyone say BIAS?
QB: NE
RB: Even
WR: Mia (Branch, caldwell, Jackson vs. Booker, Chambers, Hagan)
OL:NE
TE: Even
DL: NE
LB:NE
S:Mia (Allen, Hill, Tillman, Cooper vs...Inj RH, Wilson, Hawkins?)
CB: Mia (Allen, Poole, Daniels, Goodman vs Gay, Hobbs, Samuel Warfield?)

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Speaking for myself, and probably most Fin fans, the 4 years prior to last year were trying because of Wanny and Spielman screwed up everything they could get their hands on. If miami fans are overreacting to the offseason changes it's because we now believe the team is being run by competent people and our talent is pretty good right now.

Sure - it does help immensely for the players to really believe in the leadership. I remember back 3-5 years ago reading quotes from Pats players saying things like "I would run through a brick wall for him" or "throw myself on a hand granade" or "go to war for him" - all refering to BB and their belief in him and the system. So it really not only affects the fans like us in our hope and optimism on the upcoming year, but also on the players themselves. You also read about new coaches going to perenial losing programs (CIN, CLE, SF,) and saying how much they have to change the attitudes of the players as well as the system. It must have been frustrating to have so many All PRO players (on defense) that MIA had a couple of years ago and have coach 'Wannabee' waste such talent. I couldn't understand why they stuck with him so long. We in NE have had many crappy seasons since I started growing up with them in the 60's - but at least most of the time that was mostly also due to the fact that we also had much less talent. When we have had good talent - we have usually done pretty well with the exception of the Pete Carroll years.

 

[desi-patsfan]

Can anyone say BIAS?
QB: NE
RB: Even
WR: Mia (Branch, caldwell, Jackson vs. Booker, Chambers, Hagan)
OL:NE
TE: Even
DL: NE
LB:NE
S:Mia (Allen, Hill, Tillman, Cooper vs...Inj RH, Wilson, Hawkins?)
CB: Mia (Allen, Poole, Daniels, Goodman vs Gay, Hobbs, Samuel Warfield?)

Hmm i agree with you on everything but TE, you also forgot one very important position.

HC: NE

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Can anyone say BIAS?
QB: NE
RB: Even
WR: Mia (Branch, caldwell, Jackson vs. Booker, Chambers, Hagan)
OL:NE
TE: Even
DL: NE
LB:NE
S:Mia (Allen, Hill, Tillman, Cooper vs...Inj RH, Wilson, Hawkins?)
CB: Mia (Allen, Poole, Daniels, Goodman vs Gay, Hobbs, Samuel Warfield?)

What we ALL forget is that in these comparisons - it is not NE WR playing against MIA WR. It is NE WR's playing against MIA DB's. These comparisons are only good for fantasy league. A more accurate comparison is to compare the offensive positions against the other teams defensive counterpart.

 

[Welker83]

Hmm i agree with you on everything but TE, you also forgot one very important position.

HC: NE

TE is debatable...I'll give you HC...for now...