Good Bedard article on the Secondary

[The Gr8est]

I recall a Julian Edelman stepping in and doing a passable job as a DB of last resort. I'm pretty sure that the same people were coaching him.

That's a fair point, and Edelman being able to fill in on occasion is useful.


But teams said they were targeting him (Bolden ?), and he isn't exactly a quality starting DB.

 

[aluminum seats]

I absolutely agree. With all of the high draft picks the Pats have used on DBs, I can't believe they would miss on ALL of them. They should have drafted a good one by accident just due to the law of averages.


They couldn't miss this badly if they were actually TRYING to pick highly rated players who they knew would miss.

It isn't the talent, it is how they are coached, and spending more resources on replacement talent is not the answer.

Fix the coaching.

Yup.

On the plus side, the coaching problem is becoming so evident that we can have at least a little hope that something might be done about it.

 

[Boomer B]

another article from NESN about the secondary. Why are they playing Cover 2 so much when their personal doesn't suit it?


Bill Belichick Deserves More Blame For Patriots' Struggling Pass Defense Than Individual Players - New England Patriots - NESN.com

At this point, it's nearly impossible to place blame on the players. It can't be that the team keeps bringing in untalented players, their scouting department simply can't be that bad. It's time to place blame on Bill Belichick's defensive scheme that doesn't suit the players in place.

Patrick Chung used to be one of the best players on the Patriots' defense. That of course, was when he was playing a position that supported his skill-set. The Patriots' safety is at his best when playing strong safety up in the box. He excelled last season against the Dolphins in that role covering tight end Anthony Fasano one-on-one and stopping Reggie Bush from getting anywhere rushing to the outside. Chung played a linebacker/safety hybrid role in Oregon, and is now being asked to play deep in a cover-two system where he's not instinctive enough and constantly finds himself out of position. Chung is still a good player, but he's a square peg trying to be fit in a round hole.

Another problem with the Patriots' defense is that it's built too heavily to stop the run. That's why the Patriots have three linebackers who weigh 245-pounds or more, none of which should be playing the typically lighter, faster weak-side spot. Jerod Mayo is currently holding down that position, but struggles when asked to run with tight ends. Rookie Dont'a Hightower may be the best Patriots' linebacker in coverage, but he's 6-foot-3, 270-pounds. He's fast for his size, but still not quick enough to be asked to cover quicker players.

At times against the Seahawks, New England had all three of their linebackers, Mayo, Brandon Spikes and Rob Ninkovich, playing a zone in the middle of the field covering absolutely no one. That just puts added pressure on the already taxed secondary who can't depend on their linebackers to eat up some of the skill players. The safeties will then cheat up, noticing tight ends or running backs seeping into deeper zones, which leaves cornerbacks Devin McCourty and Kyle Arrington to get burned deep on the sidelines.

If anything, the Patriots should be blitzing their linebackers more often to put pressure on the opposing quarterback, forcing the ball out quicker and leaving less time for the defensive backs to maintain coverage. The Patriots generated very little pressure on Sunday outside of rookie Chandler Jones, who was impressive again.

There's so many flaws in the Patriots' defense that it's tough to pick out one or two that would at least make a quick fix. Getting Gregory back from injury will help -- he's better in the cover-two than Chung and Wilson -- but it would also help if Belichick would start trusting his cornerbacks more. McCourty, Arrington, Dennard and Ras-I Dowling are all physical players who can man-up and bump receivers at the line. They're already getting burned when given a two to three yard cushion, so playing press would at least throw off the timing of opposing offenses. It would also give their safeties more time to adjust deep.

There's nothing the team can do about bringing in faster linebackers at this point, and the three starters they have are very talented, but they're just not as strong against the pass as they are against the run. Bringing Chung up to help out in the shallow-to-intermediate area would help, and play to his strengths.

 

[The Gr8est]

another article from NESN about the secondary. Why are they playing Cover 2 so much when their personal doesn't suit it?


Bill Belichick Deserves More Blame For Patriots' Struggling Pass Defense Than Individual Players - New England Patriots - NESN.com

At this point, it's nearly impossible to place blame on the players. It can't be that the team keeps bringing in untalented players, their scouting department simply can't be that bad. It's time to place blame on Bill Belichick's defensive scheme that doesn't suit the players in place.

Patrick Chung used to be one of the best players on the Patriots' defense. That of course, was when he was playing a position that supported his skill-set. The Patriots' safety is at his best when playing strong safety up in the box. He excelled last season against the Dolphins in that role covering tight end Anthony Fasano one-on-one and stopping Reggie Bush from getting anywhere rushing to the outside. Chung played a linebacker/safety hybrid role in Oregon, and is now being asked to play deep in a cover-two system where he's not instinctive enough and constantly finds himself out of position. Chung is still a good player, but he's a square peg trying to be fit in a round hole.

Another problem with the Patriots' defense is that it's built too heavily to stop the run. That's why the Patriots have three linebackers who weigh 245-pounds or more, none of which should be playing the typically lighter, faster weak-side spot. Jerod Mayo is currently holding down that position, but struggles when asked to run with tight ends. Rookie Dont'a Hightower may be the best Patriots' linebacker in coverage, but he's 6-foot-3, 270-pounds. He's fast for his size, but still not quick enough to be asked to cover quicker players.

Here is where the Pats really miss Dane Fletcher. It would be nice if someone like Tarpinian would develop here.

At times against the Seahawks, New England had all three of their linebackers, Mayo, Brandon Spikes and Rob Ninkovich, playing a zone in the middle of the field covering absolutely no one. That just puts added pressure on the already taxed secondary who can't depend on their linebackers to eat up some of the skill players. The safeties will then cheat up, noticing tight ends or running backs seeping into deeper zones, which leaves cornerbacks Devin McCourty and Kyle Arrington to get burned deep on the sidelines.

If anything, the Patriots should be blitzing their linebackers more often to put pressure on the opposing quarterback, forcing the ball out quicker and leaving less time for the defensive backs to maintain coverage. The Patriots generated very little pressure on Sunday outside of rookie Chandler Jones, who was impressive again.

There's so many flaws in the Patriots' defense that it's tough to pick out one or two that would at least make a quick fix. Getting Gregory back from injury will help -- he's better in the cover-two than Chung and Wilson -- but it would also help if Belichick would start trusting his cornerbacks more. McCourty, Arrington, Dennard and Ras-I Dowling are all physical players who can man-up and bump receivers at the line. They're already getting burned when given a two to three yard cushion, so playing press would at least throw off the timing of opposing offenses. It would also give their safeties more time to adjust deep.

Hmmmm, I seem to recall the Pats winning a Superbowl by beating up on the Rams receivers with their DBs; at least until the "Polian Rules" kicked in.

Now that Polian is out of the league, and more contact seems to be allowed now, I'd like to see the Pats go back to that style.

There's nothing the team can do about bringing in faster linebackers at this point, and the three starters they have are very talented, but they're just not as strong against the pass as they are against the run. Bringing Chung up to help out in the shallow-to-intermediate area would help, and play to his strengths.

............

 

[SVN]

The Patriots' coaching staff is a bunch of no names. Most of them
started off as coaching assistants or scouts with the Patriots. Very
few experienced coaches like Groh, Weis, Seely, or Crennel. How
can you expect a former defensive back at Muskingum College to
teach cornerbacks in the NFL?

The Patriots don't want to pay decent money for assistant coaches.
Romeo Crennel and Charlie Weis were among the lowest paid coordinators in the NFL.

Thats totally felger like BS and not true. Its more of bb wanting to develop coaches than hiring anyone else who doesnt run his system .Blame BB yes but not for underpaying. This is totally BS.

 

[PatsFan2]

At times against the Seahawks, New England had all three of their linebackers, Mayo, Brandon Spikes and Rob Ninkovich, playing a zone in the middle of the field covering absolutely no one. That just puts added pressure on the already taxed secondary who can't depend on their linebackers to eat up some of the skill players. The safeties will then cheat up, noticing tight ends or running backs seeping into deeper zones, which leaves cornerbacks Devin McCourty and Kyle Arrington to get burned deep on the sidelines.

See our LB's are absolute jokes in coverage and we wonder why Brady couldn't get a First down late. Because opposing LB's were making it difficult for him unlike our LB's who make it easier for the other teams... Russell Wilson almost 300yds are you kidding me? Another point when we drafted Mayo i had the feeling that he would be a Guy that can cover TE's...that has not been the case put me in the Mayo is overrated camp he is no Patrick Willis or A.J. Green. He seems fast but lack impact plays...i think we overpaid. I think Spikes although he has limitations is a more Impact player than Mayo. I have to watch Hightower a little more closer...Bigger LB's are not necessarily better. Maybe we need to start drafting those coverage tweener types.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

But teams said they were targeting him (Bolden ?), and he isn't exactly a quality starting DB.

If Edelman had managed that in the few months he played DB, he'd arguably be the greatest football player of all time.

Hypothetical: what if the Patriots had tried to convert Edelman to a DB back in his rookie season? [They wanted to do that with Rich Gannon back in the day.]

 

[Jose]

People that are blaming the coaching are delusional. Our corners and safeties are just flat out JAGs or worse.

 

[Observer]

I recall a Julian Edelman stepping in and doing a passable job as a DB of last resort. I'm pretty sure that the same people were coaching him.

This goes against the argument you have been making that coaching is not the issue. From what you just said, a relatively uncoached player has done more or less an acceptable level of work compared to a well coached player thus making the coach redundant.

 

[Cassanova792]

another article from NESN about the secondary. Why are they playing Cover 2 so much when their personal doesn't suit it?


Bill Belichick Deserves More Blame For Patriots' Struggling Pass Defense Than Individual Players - New England Patriots - NESN.com

At this point, it's nearly impossible to place blame on the players. It can't be that the team keeps bringing in untalented players, their scouting department simply can't be that bad. It's time to place blame on Bill Belichick's defensive scheme that doesn't suit the players in place.

Patrick Chung used to be one of the best players on the Patriots' defense. That of course, was when he was playing a position that supported his skill-set. The Patriots' safety is at his best when playing strong safety up in the box. He excelled last season against the Dolphins in that role covering tight end Anthony Fasano one-on-one and stopping Reggie Bush from getting anywhere rushing to the outside. Chung played a linebacker/safety hybrid role in Oregon, and is now being asked to play deep in a cover-two system where he's not instinctive enough and constantly finds himself out of position. Chung is still a good player, but he's a square peg trying to be fit in a round hole.

Another problem with the Patriots' defense is that it's built too heavily to stop the run. That's why the Patriots have three linebackers who weigh 245-pounds or more, none of which should be playing the typically lighter, faster weak-side spot. Jerod Mayo is currently holding down that position, but struggles when asked to run with tight ends. Rookie Dont'a Hightower may be the best Patriots' linebacker in coverage, but he's 6-foot-3, 270-pounds. He's fast for his size, but still not quick enough to be asked to cover quicker players.

At times against the Seahawks, New England had all three of their linebackers, Mayo, Brandon Spikes and Rob Ninkovich, playing a zone in the middle of the field covering absolutely no one. That just puts added pressure on the already taxed secondary who can't depend on their linebackers to eat up some of the skill players. The safeties will then cheat up, noticing tight ends or running backs seeping into deeper zones, which leaves cornerbacks Devin McCourty and Kyle Arrington to get burned deep on the sidelines.

If anything, the Patriots should be blitzing their linebackers more often to put pressure on the opposing quarterback, forcing the ball out quicker and leaving less time for the defensive backs to maintain coverage. The Patriots generated very little pressure on Sunday outside of rookie Chandler Jones, who was impressive again.

There's so many flaws in the Patriots' defense that it's tough to pick out one or two that would at least make a quick fix. Getting Gregory back from injury will help -- he's better in the cover-two than Chung and Wilson -- but it would also help if Belichick would start trusting his cornerbacks more. McCourty, Arrington, Dennard and Ras-I Dowling are all physical players who can man-up and bump receivers at the line. They're already getting burned when given a two to three yard cushion, so playing press would at least throw off the timing of opposing offenses. It would also give their safeties more time to adjust deep.

There's nothing the team can do about bringing in faster linebackers at this point, and the three starters they have are very talented, but they're just not as strong against the pass as they are against the run. Bringing Chung up to help out in the shallow-to-intermediate area would help, and play to his strengths.

Fantastic article, couldn't agree more! Please bring back Romeo Crenel if he gets fired from KC! This vanilla safe defense is killing this team.

 

[mosi]

great article that unfortunately, states the obvious. The entire secondary seems lost and it never seems to get better.

 

[Efstratios]

I know this might not have to do anything but this question keeps nagging at me. "If our pass rush was in the top 10 in the league how much would it cover up the secondary's weaknesses, if at all?". I really hope someone more knowledgeable than myself could answer this question. The way I see it, this pass rush isn't god awful, but it's simply not good enough to detract from the gaping holes in the secondary.

 

[JackBauer]

when we drafted Mayo i had the feeling that he would be a Guy that can cover TE's...that has not been the case put me in the Mayo is overrated camp he is no Patrick Willis or A.J. Green.

So you're saying Mayo is neither the best LB in the league nor a wide receiver?

Terrific point, as usual.

 

[Cassanova792]

I know this might not have to do anything but this question keeps nagging at me. "If our pass rush was in the top 10 in the league how much would it cover up the secondary's weaknesses, if at all?". I really hope someone more knowledgeable than myself could answer this question. The way I see it, this pass rush isn't god awful, but it's simply not good enough to detract from the gaping holes in the secondary.

Read the NESN article, our defense plays too conservative!

 

[reflexblue]

I absolutely agree. With all of the high draft picks the Pats have used on DBs, I can't believe they would miss on ALL of them. They should have drafted a good one by accident just due to the law of averages.


They couldn't miss this badly if they were actually TRYING to pick highly rated players who they knew would miss.

It isn't the talent, it is how they are coached, and spending more resources on replacement talent is not the answer.

Fix the coaching.

True just by the law of averages One of these guys should have panned out.

 

[JR4]

Well I disagree with this statement he made:

The Seahawks had first and 10 at the Patriots’ 46 with 1:27 to play. Why were the Patriots playing with their base personnel, including three linebackers, and just four defensive backs? The Seahawks needed to score a touchdown, and running back Marshawn Lynch wasn’t going to score from there. They had to pass, so why not have more coverage players on the field?

First 1:27 at PATs 46 is a significant amount of time.
Second, they had a RB and a run blocker in the backfield. A case could
be made that with a powerful back like Lynch they want to pick up a first
down and maybe get 10 to 15 yards closer by running it. If fact if PATs had
more coverage as he suggested they probably would have run it.
The real defensive problem with that play was the left Line backer did not
react quick enough to the QB bootleg giving Wilson 5 seconds to pass the
ball. He just stood there waiting for the play to come to him which it wasn't.
It was a very well designed play and PATs just weren't ready for it.

 

[Deus Irae]

This goes against the argument you have been making that coaching is not the issue. From what you just said, a relatively uncoached player has done more or less an acceptable level of work compared to a well coached player thus making the coach redundant.

I'm saying that the issue is a lack of NFL level defensive back talent, not a coaching problem specific to Mr. Boyer. Edelman was coached up enough to become a decent CB of last resort, meaning the coaching staff was able to take his talent and apply it, because Edelman's got specific talent to help in short area coverage. We saw the same thing with Troy Brown back in the day.

I think there are legitimate questions about this secondary. I also think that there's yet to be a single decent case made for the problem being the secondary coach, and no case beyond preference for the problem being the defensive coaching in general.

 

[SVN]

We had Dom Capers as an assistant and secondary coach. Didnt help much.

 

[aluminum seats]

True just by the law of averages One of these guys should have panned out.

That would be a reasonable thought.

For those having trouble with this, maybe this will help: ask yourself, what value does coaching have? Do coaches serve a purpose? If we simply throw our hands up and say, "sorry, no, all these players are bad, there's nothing we can do," then the Pats and other teams might as well just save the money and not have coaches.

Now, assuming everyone agrees that's silly, you look at a group of players--for example, in the secondary--and ask, has coaching helped these players? Are they better than they were? In what ways?

If the answer to those questions is a blank stare, or, essentially, no, coaching hasn't helped at all, then there's little argument to be made for not considering a change.

 

[Kontradiction]

That would be a reasonable thought.

For those having trouble with this, maybe this will help: ask yourself, what value does coaching have? Do coaches serve a purpose? If we simply throw our hands up and say, "sorry, no, all these players are bad, there's nothing we can do," then the Pats and other teams might as well just save the money and not have coaches.

Now, assuming everyone agrees that's silly, you look at a group of players--for example, in the secondary--and ask, has coaching helped these players? Are they better than they were? In what ways?

If the answer to those questions is a blank stare, or, essentially, no, coaching hasn't helped at all, then there's little argument to be made for not considering a change.

I remember when everyone thought Dean Pees was the issue. He got canned and then a man that many consider one of the greatest DC's of all time took over. Guess what? The defense didn't look any better. It's the TALENT.