Givens is hoping to stay with Pats - Curran

[stevedogc]

I think first and foremost you need to get Branch re-signed to a long term deal. He is the best receiver on this team and will be a FA after next season. And I don't think the Pats are willing to go through the same thing with him next year that they are going through now with Givens. Not to mention if someone does overpay for Givens, then it will only cost more to re-sign Branch later. Because I think we can all agree that as solid of a receiver Givens is, Branch is better. And will want more $$ then him. Sign Branch, then go after Givens. If and when the new CBA gets signed, I think you will see some of these players re-signed. Branch, Seymour, Koppen.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Leaving for the $$$ in a league without guaranteed contracts can be pretty short sighted. Especially at the tender age of 26. If he goes to a Miami say, and they do end up with a Culpepper (LOL) as mg suggests, by the time Culpepper and his WR get their collective acts together (if ever) David (following a nagging injury or two on a team where he's done little) could be an out of work labeled a "disappointing FA signing".

David certainly worked very hard to become a solid #2 WR, and while the juggs gun helped the young QB who worked with him tirelessly didn't hurt.

If Givens were to get a contract for substantially more from a team with a very good QB in desperate need of receivers who can actually catch the ball - say like in Seattle - bolting now might work out just fine. But if he more likely goes to a franchise willing to overpay to bolster a questionable QB by upgrading his weapons (as Washington was trying to do with Patton) he could be out on his ass and looking to salvage his career in as little as 2 seasons. In Patton's case it was probably a wash given his age, yet he now regrets the decision.

The argument often comes down to the what if he gets hurt - he has to protect his family argument. Well again, in a non guaranteed situation, all you're really talking about is the SB, half of which Uncle Sam takes off the top. Once it's gone you are at the mercy of your employer to keep you on the roster should the little nagging injuries dog you or some catastrophe befall you. Kraft shows that loyalty to the guys who have been loyal to him. Anywhere else he goes he starts from scratch with ownership, management, coaching and fans who have no built up resevoir of gratitide for what David the player has already done for the franchise. I'm surprised more players don't get it - being college educated and all - but they seem all too willing to let their agents and the union (who seldom have any individual players best interests at heart) talk them into the shortlighted approach.

 

[patriotsrule]

I always wonder how a player like Givens feels, he came out in I believe the 6th round, which may have led to obscurity on other teams. However on the Pats they capitalized on his strengths and he has 3 rings from them, I know everyone wants the big payday, but there must be some ambivalence about going to another team. Does he owe anything to the Pats???

No. He owes it to himself and his family to make the most money he can while he's still young and productive. That's the American way and it should be no different in pro sports. If a team offers Givens a lot more money than what the Patriots are offering him, he owes them nothing but a hand shake and a good bye. Sorry but that's the difference between the real world and the fantasy world some fans want us to live in. If another company offered you $500,000 more to come work for them would you take it or stay where you are because they gave you your first shot and took the time to train you and make you better at your craft?

 

[RayClay]

I'm sure Givens is sincere, but even if he didn't feel this way, any agent would instruct his client to say exacty that in the interest of creating a bidding war with other teams.

In other words, don't take too much from the statement. Givens will take the best contract. I probably would if I were him too.

Agreed, but it says something that he knows the right thing to say.

Read the outlandish bull of some other free agents.

And these players talk to each other.

Notice how classy Seymours holdout was handled by both sides.

These players are smart enough to realize there are benefits to staying with a class orginization.

I'm sure they wonder if they'd want to trade places with Woody or Milloy.

Of course, money is always a consideration.

 

[Digger44]

I think first and foremost you need to get Branch re-signed to a long term deal. He is the best receiver on this team and will be a FA after next season. And I don't think the Pats are willing to go through the same thing with him next year that they are going through now with Givens. Not to mention if someone does overpay for Givens, then it will only cost more to re-sign Branch later. Because I think we can all agree that as solid of a receiver Givens is, Branch is better. And will want more $$ then him. Sign Branch, then go after Givens. If and when the new CBA gets signed, I think you will see some of these players re-signed. Branch, Seymour, Koppen.

We had talked about this a while ago and I like your thinking 100%. There is no way Givens deserves what Branch deserves. If we set the tone with Branch then we can use him as a guide on Givens. That way we do not overpay Given or Branch.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

It's 'nice' that Givens wants to stay but likely irrelevant in that some other one or more of the 32 teams will be willing to pay him much more than the Pats feel they can allocate to the WR position. Remember that they must also re-sign The Twig which would tie up lots of cap money on the position. I was a big Givens fan from the get go and will hate to see him leave.

It matters not whether Brady will throw Given more passes than a no-name QB, say from Miami. As long as Givens has the big signing bonus and a year or two salary, he's set for life. I'll wager that he already has more money for life than 99% posting here.

 

[Michigan Dave]

I would love more than anything to read "Givens Re-signs With Pats". But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[PatsFan37]

We had talked about this a while ago and I like your thinking 100%. There is no way Givens deserves what Branch deserves. If we set the tone with Branch then we can use him as a guide on Givens. That way we do not overpay Given or Branch.

They have to do Givens now or lose him. In this time when the CBA is in doubt and contracts are being negotiated on two tracks because of that, they won't add the complexity of Branch's contract to the mix.

I believe they will sign Branch this summer, during TC and I have more confidence that he will stay than Givens.

 

[Ring 6]

Im not sure that at this point the Pats dont place as much value on the WR as any other team.
BB is known to look at this from a perspective of how much better is A than B and what is the price for that?
He went after Mason last year, so why not retain Givens? He has shown he is willing to spend on the position.

To me, this is going to come down to BB showing what his opinion of Givens is.
Did Givens 'make the system go' or was Givens a 'product of the system'?

I think BB must now answer that question publicly by making or not making an offer, and what level that offer is at.

Quite honestly, Im OK either way really, because if BB resigns him that means Givens has value here, and is not a product of the system. If he does not that means BB is confident he can plug someone else in without much dropoff.
And then that money can be spent elsewhere.

I guess its a big in BB we trust thing, but this decision stands out to me as one we can't really lose on either way.

 

[sieglo]

I think first and foremost you need to get Branch re-signed to a long term deal. He is the best receiver on this team and will be a FA after next season. And I don't think the Pats are willing to go through the same thing with him next year that they are going through now with Givens. Not to mention if someone does overpay for Givens, then it will only cost more to re-sign Branch later. Because I think we can all agree that as solid of a receiver Givens is, Branch is better. And will want more $$ then him. Sign Branch, then go after Givens. If and when the new CBA gets signed, I think you will see some of these players re-signed. Branch, Seymour, Koppen.

I think there is really a minimal dropoff in skill between Branch and Givens. Statistically Givens had a better year in '04. He also stays healthier than Branch. I think they are both solid number 2s. Sign a proper number 1 and let one of the pair go.

 

[bunzoburns]

Givens

Tommy C is on WEEI this afternoon. I am sure he will discuss the topic.

Also - I see the Pats drafting Stovall from ND with a 3rd or 4th round pick. Any thoughts?

 

[flutie2phelan]

.... - this is the Patriots of Fort Razor after all, not some sieve of gossip in Langley, VA.

I love it !

 

[flutie2phelan]

Gee, we do not tire of discussing Givens, do we?

Last wave of threads on this topic, IIRC, ended with a sort of quasi-consensus that ... to us ... David would be worth an average cap hit in the range of 3 - 3.5 million. That sound right? Patton's contract ... H-man's contract ... what else? ... being comparables.

So i want Belioli to make a pre-emptive strike.

Offer him a 5 or 6 year contract ... with upfront signing bonus of 10 to 12 million ... and salaries following the curve of, roughly, 500K ... 1 mil ... 1.5 mil ... 2 mil ... 2.5 mil ... 3 million per year. Jazz it up with one or two roster bonuses along the way, if you must.

It's not that none of the other 31 clubs wouldn't be willing to trump that - if we gave them the chance. But make this offer tomorrow, Friday the 10th. Take it or leave it. If you let the clock run out, David, and become a free agent ... then this offer expires, it is off the table. We probably won't make another offer. Certainly not a higher one.

While agent Brad Blank may suspect that there could be a still richer offer out there, if he only waited a while ... how could he advise his client to reject this? How could Givens decline it? Ten/twelve million dollars (pre-tax) in the bank. Regardless of subsequent injuries. Plus respectable walkin-aroun money every year. Ya stay with Brady ... ya stay with Kraft ... ya stay with Belichick ... ya secure a place - modest or not, depending on what you do from here on - in football history with one of the perennial powerhouses.

The team should open the bidding high enough ... pre-emptively ... that Givens would be foolish to say No. With the cap boiling over in years to come, the team's cap situation could comfortably absorb it. They've got the revenues to afford the cash outlay of the bonus. Ignore the CBA tempest-in-a-teapot.

As soon as we've signed and re-signed our own and other FAs ... we could then offer Deion an extension about 50% richer than David's.

Oh, yeah, someone in the front office has to make sure that Givens gets to talk to Patton.

 

[dryheat44]

So i want Belioli to make a pre-emptive strike.

Offer him a 5 or 6 year contract ... with upfront signing bonus of 10 to 12 million ... and salaries following the curve of, roughly, 500K ... 1 mil ... 1.5 mil ... 2 mil ... 2.5 mil ... 3 million per year. Jazz it up with one or two roster bonuses along the way, if you must.

It's not that none of the other 31 clubs wouldn't be willing to trump that - if we gave them the chance. But make this offer tomorrow, Friday the 10th. Take it or leave it. If you let the clock run out, David, and become a free agent ... then this offer expires, it is off the table. We probably won't make another offer. Certainly not a higher one.

While agent Brad Blank may suspect that there could be a still richer offer out there, if he only waited a while ... how could he advise his client to reject this? How could Givens decline it? Ten/twelve million dollars (pre-tax) in the bank. Regardless of subsequent injuries. Plus respectable walkin-aroun money every year. Ya stay with Brady ... ya stay with Kraft ... ya stay with Belichick ... ya secure a place - modest or not, depending on what you do from here on - in football history with one of the perennial powerhouses.

As soon as we've signed and re-signed our own and other FAs ... we could then offer Deion an extension about 50% richer than David's.

At first glance. I'm on board. It seems reasonable and desirable for both sides.

However, I don't think Branch is worth half again as much as Givens. I'd be inclined to offer the same term and base salaries, with a couple-three more million in bonus money. Timing is everything.

Of course, the agents might be trying to sell their clients on an uncapped year, and to avoid signing such long deals.

Which brings me to another possible problem -- I don't think we can sign Givens to the proposed contract without a CBA in place. Something about not allowing signing bonuses to protract past the expiration date? Miguel?

Assuming the CBA gets ironed out though, I'm all for this plan.

 

[hwc]

The problem with your proposal is that, right now, a $12 million bonus can only be prorated over a four year period. So the Pats would be looking at a $3.5 million cap number to sign Givens today. I don't think they have $3.5 million in cap space. Same problem with Vinatieri. Everything is in a holding pattern.

The lack of a new CBA is making things very sticky around the league with the March deadline approaching. At least the Pats can get under the cap by cutting a couple of players (Starks, Poole). But, signing free agents is really tough right now.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I almost want to see the CBA drag on, just to watch the Broncos, Colts, Jets etc. twist with their cap loads.

 

[hwc]

I'm with ya. The Pats would be hurtin with no CBA, but not as badly as some of the teams you mention. By my reckoning, the Colts will be in deep doo-doo with Manning if they don't get to restructure his bonus before March 2nd. They can't pro-rate much of it without a CBA because of the 30% rule. [Miguel: feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!]

 

[groundgame]

Has a player's agent in any sport ever said his client's current team is not his #1 choice?

Bottom line: Don't read anything into an agent's comments, good or bad.

 

[flutie2phelan]

The problem with your proposal is that, right now, a $12 million bonus can only be prorated over a four year period. So the Pats would be looking at a $3.5 million cap number to sign Givens today. I don't think they have $3.5 million in cap space. Same problem with Vinatieri. Everything is in a holding pattern.

.... signing free agents is really tough right now.

Agreed. I understood that (altho' i keep forgetting the details ... but the 4 year horizon sounds familiar.)

Finesse it this way. Draw up the "real" contract. Agree to it orally.
The agent initials each page. Givens initials each page. Scott Pioli initials each page. Then put it into the office safe. Then hand Givens his copy, imprinted "Letter of Intent".

Because of the large sums involved, and the intended duration of the arrangement ... no court would construe this to be an enforceable contract. Oral contracts can be enforced ... but only for lesser amounts and shorter timespans. Therefore, the NFL could not deem this document to be a contract.

This all happens at one, short meeting in Pioli's office. Robert Kraft is present. After handling the Letter of Intent as above, a document is produced which is identical to the provisions of the letter of intent ... identical, that is, to the first four years' provisions of the LOI. Years 5 and 6 are omitted. The signing bonus reflects only the amount attributable to years 1 thru 4. This is NOT a sham contract ... but it is expected to be replaced.

Both parties sign this enforceable contract. Mr. Kraft looks David Givens in the eye and intones, "Come back here the day after a new CBA is ratified. Sign the letter of intent that we have just placed in the safe. I'll be here to sign it, too. That becomes our contract with you ... and we'll rip up this one we have just signed. I'll hand you a check for the rest of your signing bonus. You have my word of honor on that ... and my handshake!"

Is there any doubt that Givens would accept such a statement from Bob Kraft, before witnesses ... as fully equal to a signed document? (Would LaVar Arrington rather have Bob Kraft's word of honor than a signed contract initialed on each page by his own feckless agents?)

Of course, this presupposes having cleared the cap room to sign ANY #2 WR - Givens or not. No difference there.

 

[shakadave]

Curran's phrase says it best (even though Curran doesn't say this is what he believes): "the wideout they know is better than the wideout they don't."