Giants first in sacks with 53

[mossdeep]

When did I say that NE was some average or abstract team? The Giants took it to NE on the LOS last time. Sure, NE was missing some guys, but they were missing those guys in other games and they weren't beaten on the line in those the way NY did.

NY's pass rush is for real and is significantly better than NE's. There is no two ways about it.

This is correct, The Dolphins and Jets the previous two games did not get much pressure on Brady. Do you see my point?

Stephen Neal is a wall against the pass rush. The effectiveness of Tuck will be reduced down the middle this game.

 

[Deus Irae]

We disagree. There is nothing you can say that will change my opinion.

When did I ever say that sacks are required for NE? In fact, in this thread I said just the opposite.

NE has legitimately has had a hard time even getting to the QB with a base rush in many of their games.

NE does not get "ample" pressure when they rush 4 and I have seen many, many times that NE blitzed and the QB still had plenty of time. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Then further discussion is useless. You argue against the weight of the numbers AND the weight of the game films.

 

[Sicilian]

Why isn't the same true for the Giants?

I don't know for sure if it is, but it is my understanding that in a 3-4 formation the linemen are more often (not always, but more often) responsible for gap control and not pass rush. In a 4-3, you have more linemen to control gaps, so you have more of them rushing on average.

Different responsibilities in different systems. Different goals of different schemes. When comparing, you have to say, "In identical situations, where a pass rush is the best defense, which team is capable of getting pressure easier on that one play, given their personel and system."

I think the Giants are better, but not by a wide margin. Maybe 6 out of 10 times they'd be better in the situation.

 

[Oswlek]

Then further discussion is useless. You argue against the weight of the numbers AND the weight of the game films.

I was fine with your original remark but the extra sentence is uncessary. I watch more than enough football to know what I am talking about. I apologize for using the earlier line about watching the games - my point was that NE ranking in sacks is skewed but it came out wrong.

Enjoy the game.

 

[Watson's IQ]

I was fine with your original remark but the extra sentence is uncessary. I watch more than enough football to know what I am talking about. I apologize for using the earlier line about watching the games - my point was that NE ranking in sacks is skewed but it came out wrong.

Enjoy the game.

How do you feel about those who say the Giants ranking in sacks is also skewed by 12 in one game against the Eagles, including Osi turning Winston Justice into a human turnstile?

 

[Ring 6]

When did I say that NE was some average or abstract team? The Giants took it to NE on the LOS last time. Sure, NE was missing some guys, but they were missing those guys in other games and they weren't beaten on the line in those the way NY did.

NY's pass rush is for real and is significantly better than NE's. There is no two ways about it.

Wow, that is as wrong a statement as I have ever seen.

Brady was sacked ONE TIME.
Yes, I know your next statement will be 'it wasnt sacks, it was tremendous pressure'. IIRC the stats I saw the other day said he was touched 8 times.
He threw 42 passes, was sacked once and completed 32.
The idea that the Giants 'took it to NE on the LOS' is ludicrous. Your QB does not get sacked once and throw only 10 incompletes out of 42 passes if your OL is 'getting it taken to them'.
Quite frankly, the opposite is true. Our OL DOMINATED the Giants.

 

[Oswlek]

I don't know for sure if it is, but it is my understanding that in a 3-4 formation the linemen are more often (not always, but more often) responsible for gap control and not pass rush. In a 4-3, you have more linemen to control gaps, so you have more of them rushing on average.

Different responsibilities in different systems. Different goals of different schemes. When comparing, you have to say, "In identical situations, where a pass rush is the best defense, which team is capable of getting pressure easier on that one play, given their personel and system."

I think the Giants are better, but not by a wide margin. Maybe 6 out of 10 times they'd be better in the situation.

The difference between a 2-gap and a 1-gap system when it comes to pass rushing is highly overrated. The difference is really in run defense, not pass rushing.

Where the difference impacts pass rushing is in personel. The type of guys who are excellent one gap rushers - particularly from the outside - just couldn't perform the run D responsibilities. This devalues the smaller outside rushers forcing NE to get a pass rush in a different manner.

I just think that NE's pass rush hasn't been as good as their sack total implies, nor do I think it is as good as it has been in seasons past.

 

[Oswlek]

Wow, that is as wrong a statement as I have ever seen.

Brady was sacked ONE TIME.
Yes, I know your next statement will be 'it wasnt sacks, it was tremendous pressure'. IIRC the stats I saw the other day said he was touched 8 times.
He threw 42 passes, was sacked once and completed 32.
The idea that the Giants 'took it to NE on the LOS' is ludicrous. Your QB does not get sacked once and throw only 10 incompletes out of 42 passes if your OL is 'getting it taken to them'.
Quite frankly, the opposite is true. Our OL DOMINATED the Giants.

No. What that means is that Brady had an unbelievable game. I personally believe that Brady played one of the greatest games that I have ever witnessed that evening.

 

[Oswlek]

How do you feel about those who say the Giants ranking in sacks is also skewed by 12 in one game against the Eagles, including Osi turning Winston Justice into a human turnstile?

I think Osi is overrated, but I think the rest of the guys as good as advertised.

 

[BeantownRox]

Then further discussion is useless. You argue against the weight of the numbers AND the weight of the game films.

Talking about sports, this is always the case.

 

[Ring 6]

I was fine with your original remark but the extra sentence is uncessary. I watch more than enough football to know what I am talking about. I apologize for using the earlier line about watching the games - my point was that NE ranking in sacks is skewed but it came out wrong.

Enjoy the game.

I think this depends on how the question is defined.

It sounds like your definition is game long, engulfing pressure on a QB, where he never has time to throw.
No NFL comes close to that anymore. A league leading sack total now is less than an average sack total 10-20 years ago.

Do the Patriots rush the passer well, as YOU define it. NO WAY.

However, they are the 2nd best in the NFL at rushing the passer.
Do they rush the passer well, compared to all the other teams, and the way the game is playing today. ABSOLUTELY.

 

[Ring 6]

No. What that means is that Brady had an unbelievable game. I personally believe that Brady played one of the greatest games that I have ever witnessed that evening.

He couldnt do that if he was constantly under pressure. As I said, I'm going from memory, but I believe he was touched 8 times.

Regardless, for your description to be accurate, Brady would have had to break tackles, complete passes with guys hanging all over him, etc, and I saw the game and those things did not happen.

 

[Oswlek]

I think this depends on how the question is defined.

It sounds like your definition is game long, engulfing pressure on a QB, where he never has time to throw.
No NFL comes close to that anymore. A league leading sack total now is less than an average sack total 10-20 years ago.

Do the Patriots rush the passer well, as YOU define it. NO WAY.

However, they are the 2nd best in the NFL at rushing the passer.
Do they rush the passer well, compared to all the other teams, and the way the game is playing today. ABSOLUTELY.

No, I just think that NE has not done a good job of getting to the QB without blitzing. The blitz has always been a part of their pass rush package, but I just think that they were more successful only sending 3-4 in years past.

 

[Oswlek]

He couldnt do that if he was constantly under pressure. As I said, I'm going from memory, but I believe he was touched 8 times.

Regardless, for your description to be accurate, Brady would have had to break tackles, complete passes with guys hanging all over him, etc, and I saw the game and those things did not happen.

This is not true at all. Brady could have moved around in the pocket avoiding potential sacks. He could have made very quick decisions getting rid of the ball before a guy who beat the OL gets there. In fact, that is just what he did.

 

[Sicilian]

The difference between a 2-gap and a 1-gap system when it comes to pass rushing is highly overrated. The difference is really in run defense, not pass rushing.

Where the difference impacts pass rushing is in personel. The type of guys who are excellent one gap rushers - particularly from the outside - just couldn't perform the run D responsibilities. This devalues the smaller outside rushers forcing NE to get a pass rush in a different manner.

I just think that NE's pass rush hasn't been as good as their sack total implies, nor do I think it is as good as it has been in seasons past.

What's not overrated is what BB asks them to do. Again, I think in a situation where he really wants pressure on the QB (maybe a third and 15+ where he feels his secondary can make a tackle on a dump off quicker than 15 yards, etc), the Patriots are more than capable of performing.

Where you are absolutely correct is that we aren't anywhere near as good at it as we were in 2003, 2004, and even 2005 when we had Mcginest, who was as good as I've seen in that situation. Also, we're not as good as we were earlier this year when we had Colvin. I'd still rank our pass rush in the top 10 (without actually making the effort of looking at every team and ranking them officially of course )

 

[Seacoast Fan]

did you guys know that the giants had 12 sacks vs the eagles

12 in one game against Philly? Hmmm, something sounds VERY suspicious...I think this calls for a congressional inquiry.....

 

[Ring 6]

No, I just think that NE has not done a good job of getting to the QB without blitzing. The blitz has always been a part of their pass rush package, but I just think that they were more successful only sending 3-4 in years past.

Again, it depends on your expectations. The way offense is played today, pressure on a QB is extremely hard to get. Every play has checkdowns if pressure begins to appear, and most offense are blocking 4 with 6 if there is no blitz.
I do not consider rushing one OLB out of our 3-4 a blitz. That is a standard package.
I think Mike Vrabel has gotten a ton of pressure all season long as the 4th rusher. We arent talking sacks here, but pressure.
I agree you dont see boatloads of pressure from our down lineman, but you dont see that from any team, with the exception of seeing AGAINST some teams that cannot pass block well.

You also have to remember that our defensive system is not pass rush friendly.
We will never be great at pressuring the QB on early downs unless we have players who are far, far better than anyone at their postion.

Sure you can see teams like Indy, chicago, tampa get pressure out a base, but they do it at the expense of team defense and defending the run.
Our DL are required (in the base D) to ENGAGE the OL first, then read pass, then disengage and rush. There is absolutely no way those DL are going to get as much pressure as a DL who job is to AVOID blocks, get penetration and hope he finds a ballcarrier on his way to the QB.

Having issue with the amount of pass rush we get in our base D is really having issue with our overall defensive philosophy. It is a fact that getting pass rush pressure out of our base D is a low priority in our defensive system.

 

[Ring 6]

This is not true at all. Brady could have moved around in the pocket avoiding potential sacks. He could have made very quick decisions getting rid of the ball before a guy who beat the OL gets there. In fact, that is just what he did.

Not if their DL OWNED our OL. Maybe your comments are embellished.
In any event if the best pressure the Giants can get results in Brady moving around in the pocket, making qucik decisions and going 32-42 for a ton of yards, why is this anything to be concerned about?

 

[sebman2112]

So, the Giants had 53 sacks, but NE notched 47. It would be nice if Colvin was healthy, but I don't think the two pass rushes that far apart when it comes to generating pressure, especially when NE plays a more pressure oriented defense.

Let's look at some of those other defensive stats:

INT's
NE: 19
NYG: 15

FF's
NE: 20
NYG: 16

YPG Allowed
NE: 288.3 (4th)
NYG: 305.0 (7th)

PPG Allowed
NE: 17.1 (4th)
NYG: 21.9 (17th)

So, everyone talks about the Giants defense, and their ability to generate a pass rush, but if you look at the numbers NE's defense generates more turnovers, gives up fewer yards, racked up only 6 fewer sacks, and allowed fewer points. NE has the stronger overall defense.

 

[Ring 6]

No, I just think that NE has not done a good job of getting to the QB without blitzing. The blitz has always been a part of their pass rush package, but I just think that they were more successful only sending 3-4 in years past.

You keep saying the same thing, but ignoring my point.
"Not done a good job" compared to what?
Compared to the other 31 teams in the NFL, they have done an excellent job.