Giants first in sacks with 53

[Oswlek]

Again, it depends on your expectations. The way offense is played today, pressure on a QB is extremely hard to get. Every play has checkdowns if pressure begins to appear, and most offense are blocking 4 with 6 if there is no blitz.
I do not consider rushing one OLB out of our 3-4 a blitz. That is a standard package.
I think Mike Vrabel has gotten a ton of pressure all season long as the 4th rusher. We arent talking sacks here, but pressure.
I agree you dont see boatloads of pressure from our down lineman, but you dont see that from any team, with the exception of seeing AGAINST some teams that cannot pass block well.

You also have to remember that our defensive system is not pass rush friendly.
We will never be great at pressuring the QB on early downs unless we have players who are far, far better than anyone at their postion.

Sure you can see teams like Indy, chicago, tampa get pressure out a base, but they do it at the expense of team defense and defending the run.
Our DL are required (in the base D) to ENGAGE the OL first, then read pass, then disengage and rush. There is absolutely no way those DL are going to get as much pressure as a DL who job is to AVOID blocks, get penetration and hope he finds a ballcarrier on his way to the QB.

Having issue with the amount of pass rush we get in our base D is really having issue with our overall defensive philosophy. It is a fact that getting pass rush pressure out of our base D is a low priority in our defensive system.

1) Nor do I.

2) This is a great point and one that I probably should have noted prior. When teams choose to pass on NE on 1st down or 2nd and manageable, NE is at a disadvantage.

3) On early downs, I can see the case, although I think some of that is rationalization. I don't think that NE's system and early down pressure are mutually exclusive, it just happens to be this season. When Seymour was on his game in 2003 and 2004 he would get in the face of the QB even if it was 1st and 10 or 2nd and 4 when they dropped back. I agree that it is a factor, I just think that performance is equally so.

 

[Sicilian]

3) When Seymour was on his game in 2003 and 2004 he would get in the face of the QB even if it was 1st and 10 or 2nd and 4 when they dropped back. I agree that it is a factor, I just think that performance is equally so.

I'll agree with you here. I feel like Seymour tipped more passes in prior years than he has this year. Part of that is timing, part of that is luck, but you have to be fairly close to the QB when he throws, otherwise the ball usually clears the line.

 

[Deus Irae]

Bottom line: when New England is defending the pass and NOT in a fallback defense (prevent, etc...), it's as good as any team in the NFL, including the Giants, with, or without, the blitz.

 

[Oswlek]

Bottom line: when New England is defending the pass and NOT in a fallback defense (prevent, etc...), it's as good as any team in the NFL, including the Giants, with, or without, the blitz.

I still disagree. WIth Colvin they were a lot closer, but they have not been the same since he went down.

 

[Metaphors]

I still disagree. WIth Colvin they were a lot closer, but they have not been the same since he went down.

Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone can say the Pats are consistently effective this year at getting QB pressure rushing only 4. Vrabel and Colvin have had their moments, but overall the results have been spotty. I don't claim to know why, but it looks to be a lack of pressure up the middle.

 

[Ring 6]

1) Nor do I.

2) This is a great point and one that I probably should have noted prior. When teams choose to pass on NE on 1st down or 2nd and manageable, NE is at a disadvantage.

3) On early downs, I can see the case, although I think some of that is rationalization. I don't think that NE's system and early down pressure are mutually exclusive, it just happens to be this season. When Seymour was on his game in 2003 and 2004 he would get in the face of the QB even if it was 1st and 10 or 2nd and 4 when they dropped back. I agree that it is a factor, I just think that performance is equally so.

I dont think its a rationalization at all. (#3) Its a fact. Our defensive scheme handicaps the DL from getting pressure,because the priority is 2 gap integrity.
If BB saw pass rush pressure on 1st or 2nd down as a huge problem, and more critical than mainitaining run defense principles, he would stunt the DL or blitz in those situations. If he isn't doing that, then we can only conclude he is comfortable with the pass rush he is getting, IN RELATION TO everything else he is trying to accomplish defensively.

As far as comparing to 03 or 04, I don't really see much difference. As far as your other comments, no doubt for us to get consistent heavy pressure in those situations, the DL would have to completely dominate and manhandle the opponents OL, because they are asked to take on the blocker, THEN rush the passer. You would almost have to be twice as good as someone in a one-gap system to be equal in pass rush success.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if we decided to play a one-gap, ingore the run type of D, a la the Colts, Bucs or Bears, we would have led the league in sacks by a mile.
I just dont think it is that important because our defense is focussed on other priorities.

 

[Imperator]

I am stating this based on the last few weeks. I just feel Eli won't throw any INT. I honestly don't think Brady will either. The Pats will be more likely to throw the ball down field than the Giants during the course of the game. I see the Giants using a short safe passing game.

But if you do that, Moss and Stallworth will find ways to burn your secondary. Forcing your D to play it deep and thus opening up the shorter lanes. It happened allot earlier this year. And considering the "Fast track" we'll be playing on, our recievers deffinitly have the advantage.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone can say the Pats are consistently effective this year at getting QB pressure rushing only 4. Vrabel and Colvin have had their moments, but overall the results have been spotty. I don't claim to know why, but it looks to be a lack of pressure up the middle.

No team in the NFL is consistently effective at getting QB pressure rushing only 4. That's not the argument.

 

[BradyFTW!]

No team in the NFL is consistently effective at getting QB pressure rushing only 4. That's not the argument.

The 'argument' seems to pretty much change to whatever it needs to be for Os to continue arguing his point. It's pretty clear that you're right here, and the numbers bear it out, so might as well just leave it at that

 

[Metaphors]

No team in the NFL is consistently effective at getting QB pressure rushing only 4. That's not the argument.

So what is the point? The Pats don't blitz very often. The Giants blitz about half the time. The Eagles blitz constantly. If "No team in the NFL is consistently effective at getting QB pressure rushing only 4", then is the question about how effective they blitz?

I thought the discussion was about applying pressure, specifically the Giants applying pressure against the Pats and vice versa. That may involve blitzing. Might involve rushing 3 or 4 (Pats in week 17).

Pats dropped 7 or 8 into coverage through most of the 1st half. Didn't generate much pressure and Eli played in a comfort zone. Sent the blitz more often in the 3rd quarter and Eli wasn't as effective.

Giants blitzed about half the time. Got to Brady a reasonable number of times (1 sack, 8 hurries), but generally paid a price when bringing an extra guy.

Does any of this tell me anything about the relative ability to apply pressure on the QB? Sure, both teams seem to need to bring an extra guy to get to the other team's QB. Pats seemed to be more effective overall when blitzing, but with a much smaller sample size. This seems to indicate more uncertainty about the gameplans on Sunday rather than provide any definitive conclusions about generating effective pressure.

 

[C'est La Vie]

Kudos to Oswelek for standing his ground against the likes of Deus and AJ. Recognized that Giants D line, and pressure, was for real. I don't think Osi is overrated either. Man, that whole group came to play. Sometimes, it's not all about stats, it's about feel. You watch a game, you see what happens, and you get a sense for how good or bad a team really is. Too many blinders were on for this game. No respect shown the Gmen. Congrats on a great seaon though. The team should hold it's head high. Pats had the game, and Eli to Tyree, and that changes history? I don't think the Pats are the greatest ever, but they rank near the top.