Fun Competitions In Camp

[BTTA]

Mac needs 3 1/2 seconds and doesn't get it. The line needs to give him that. He also needs to turn the page from day 1, not compile an out-of-building case in his own mind. BoB needs to do what we have seen him do so many times.

Is there any tangible evidence of what the "out of the building" thing was? Who he talked to, how many times and how long, what the content was? It could have been anything from a single 10 minute griping session to a series of long advice sessions. There's a huge difference.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Is there any tangible evidence of what the "out of the building" thing was? Who he talked to, how many times and how long, what the content was? It could have been anything from a single 10 minute griping session to a series of long advice sessions. There's a huge difference.

You're absolutely right, but then, it's a non-zero amount, which is a huge difference from zero (the expected case, however unreasonable the expectation)

Simple answer, I don't know.

 

[50-yard-line]

I have the competition at WR as Juju, Gesicki, as two of the three with the most snaps. I think Gesicki might live in the slot, and Henry's going to play a lot.


I'm probably wrong, though, since the Pats didn't go after a TE. Still, 12-package should be a staple, and I think of Gesicki the way Mapu (whose taller and almost as heavy as Matt Milano) will be a LB...it's just a title.

 

[crawhammer]

If Mac regresses this year and/or loses his job to Zappe then Caleb Williams it is a year from now.

The Patriots are going to have the #1 overall pick? Wow, you're more pessimistic than me about the 2023 season.

 

[crawhammer]

Glad the thread got through at least some thoughtful, meaningful and worthwhile posts before this came up.

Is there any position more important than QB for this team (really any team)? Mac isn't that far above Zappe, frankly if at all, so a camp competition seems justified to me. You should want to the team to be in the best possible position to succeed. If Zappe outperforms Mac in Camp then he'll deserve the starting job. I'd rather not wait until the team is 2-4 in October before making the switch.

 

[Water Boy]

Feels like OL and DB have the widest range of permutations possible going into camp. You summed up OL, so I'll try my hand at the secondary:

1) Is Jon Jones going to play mostly inside, mostly outside, or split?
2) Is he also in the potential rotation at safety along with Jalen Mills?
3) If Gonzalez is ready for a regular role right off the bat, and Jon Jones is the other "every snap" kind of corner, which of Jack or Marcus Jones has a bigger role? Is Marcus going to play some outside again this year, or does the addition of Gonzalez push him inside exclusively?
4) How do they re-organize things without McCourty? more 2 high safety looks?
5) Do any of the long shot, bottom of the roster guys get into the mix at all? (Bledsoe, Speed, Bolden, Wade)

It has the potential to be a REALLY good and deep secondary, it'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

Free safety is definitely interesting to watch.

 

[Sicilian]

Free safety is definitely interesting to watch.

Agreed. Unless they're moving Jon Jones to safety full time, I don't see anyone that has the range, experience, and instincts to play McCourty's role 1 to 1. More likely we see more cover-2, and rotate guys (Jon Jones, Mills, Dugger primarily) back there based on matchup.

 

[mgteich]

.

Mac needs 3 1/2 seconds and doesn't get it. The line needs to give him that. He also needs to turn the page from day 1, not compile an out-of-building case in his own mind. BoB needs to do what we have seen him do so many times.

3 1/2 seconds is a long, long time.

Mac needs to be able to move up in the pocket and move around to buy some time.

If Mac regularly need 3 1/2 seconds, we will need to draft a QB or two next off-season. If no is open downfield, Mac needs to be able to kill th opposition with intermediate routes.

 

[mgteich]

Agreed. Unless they're moving Jon Jones to safety full time, I don't see anyone that has the range, experience, and instincts to play McCourty's role 1 to 1. More likely we see more cover-2, and rotate guys (Jon Jones, Mills, Dugger primarily) back there based on matchup.

1) Jonathan Jones is one of the best nickel backs in the league.

2) our base is nickel. I do NOT want to count on Marc Jones (not really a nickel, although he looks like one), Bryant and Wade. Let's NOT create a problem at a position where we have a strength.

3) Yes, the Belichick's will try lots of options at safety using Duggar, Mills, Phillips and Peppers depending on matchups and situation. Mapu may even be in the mix as a LB/S. This is one of the two Belichick family specialties (DB's and ST's). They will work it out.

 

[Sicilian]

1) Jonathan Jones is one of the best nickel backs in the league.

2) our base is nickel. I do NOT want to count on Marc Jones (not really a nickel, although he looks like one), Bryant and Wade. Let's NOT create a problem at a position where we have a strength.

3) Yes, the Belichick's will try lots of options at safety using Duggar, Mills, Phillips and Peppers depending on matchups and situation. Mapu may even be in the mix as a LB/S. This is one of the two Belichick family specialties (DB's and ST's). They will work it out.

I don't disagree. I think (if everything goes right) their base nickel has Gonzalez and Jack Jones on the outside with Jon Jones in the slot (we need nicknames for these guys so I don't have to keep typing out their first names...). Their dime is most often going to have a third safety rather than a 4th corner (IMO), but Marcus should be able to rotate in, similar to Jason McCourty's role in 2018.

I'm curious though why you don't consider Marcus to be a slot corner? Not saying you're wrong, I just haven't really heard anyone debate it so I'm interested in the perspective.

 

[mgteich]

I'm curious though why you don't consider Marcus to be a slot corner? Not saying you're wrong, I just haven't really heard anyone debate it so I'm interested in the perspective.

I saw the discussion at the time of last year's draft I thought thaat he was much better outside in college, despite his size. That being said he did indeed play nickel.

Folks automatically projected him as a nickel because of his size and just presumed that he would step in as a starter, perhaps when Jonathan moved to free safety (last year or this). I was very happy to see McCourty back at free safety.

And I don't think that folks were raving about how well Marcus played in the slot. Bryant got way, way too many reps.
=============
My BOTTOM LINE IS THAT
1) I want to see Jonathan starting in the slot
2) I see Gonzales and Jack on the outside
4) I see Marcus as backup up both outside and in the slot. I think that he may be a fine nickel back in the NFL. However, I wouldn't even conisder moving one of the best nickel backs in the league to free safety.
5) I hope that Bolden will be OK as our 6th corner. But, absent injuries, we would. have 4 safeties who would be on the filed before he is. Bolden is fine as our NINTH position DB. This doesn't count any of the Special Teamers.

 

[Tunescribe]

Is there any position more important than QB for this team (really any team)? Mac isn't that far above Zappe, frankly if at all, so a camp competition seems justified to me. You should want to the team to be in the best possible position to succeed. If Zappe outperforms Mac in Camp then he'll deserve the starting job. I'd rather not wait until the team is 2-4 in October before making the switch.

I was hoping that could be left out of this thread because (A) it's already been speculated to death in dozens of other threads and (B) I want to learn more about the new guys without things getting derailed into "Zappe vs. Mac" take #3,429. Yes, of course, if Zappe outperforms Mac he will deserve the starting job -- possible, but unlikely. I'd like to see folks hold their water on this until training camp and until we see signs of an actual battle between those two taking shape.

 

[Zuma]

1) I want to see Jonathan starting in the slot

What if what we want is not what we get? What if M. Jones plays the position he was drafted to play (slot CB) instead of Jo. Jones and looks very good there?

2) I see Gonzales and Jack on the outside

Agree

4) I see Marcus as backup up both outside and in the slot. I think that he may be a fine nickel back in the NFL. However, I wouldn't even conisder moving one of the best nickel backs in the league to free safety.

Again what if M. Jones gets a chance to play slot for a change and excels? Will you dismiss that for some reason? On the current roster…nobody is a better fit then Jo. Jones to play safety due to his understanding of scheme, his speed and vision. He’s about 30ish now. Playing at a high level like he has is more difficult when your 30+ playing man. Playing deep safety will continue to give the Pats a high level of bend but don’t break while replacing McCourty. This is also an age factor.

5) I hope that Bolden will be OK as our 6th corner. But, absent injuries, we would. have 4 safeties who would be on the filed before he is. Bolden is fine as our NINTH position DB. This doesn't count any of the Special Teamers.

This is more of a guess of what might happen…Bolden will be a fine replacement for Bryant with Bryant’s defensive reps going to Ma. Jones.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

3 1/2 seconds is a long, long time.

Mac needs to be able to move up in the pocket and move around to buy some time.

If Mac regularly need 3 1/2 seconds, we will need to draft a QB or two next off-season. If no is open downfield, Mac needs to be able to kill th opposition with intermediate routes.

Wow. In the process of checking out what he was getting (2.78), I saw that in 2020 (college) he got rid of it in 2.51 per throw. I lie, that's not really a cause, but get him 3, though I would not mind him getting that relative eternity for guys to run the long routes. But that 2.51 in his 2020 (college) campaign says he should be successful w/o that time.

Idunno. Eff it. Start training camp now.

 

[mgteich]

Wow. In the process of checking out what he was getting (2.78), I saw that in 2020 (college) he got rid of it in 2.51 per throw. I lie, that's not really a cause, but get him 3, though I would not mind him getting that relative eternity for guys to run the long routes. But that 2.51 in his 2020 (college) campaign says he should be successful w/o that time.

Idunno. Eff it. Start training camp now.

So, we agree. The OL doesn't need to give Mac 3 1/2 seconds.

If Mac is able to read the defenses relativrly fast, and work through his progressions, he'll be fine.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

So, we agree. The OL doesn't need to give Mac 3 1/2 seconds.

If Mac is able to read the defenses relativrly fast, and work through his progressions, he'll be fine.

99% answer, yes. Give me the rest of the post for an asterisk: He does not need an average of 3 1/2 seconds. Assuming an unremarkable distribution, that's pretty much the end of it. I think an average of 3 would even be a lot.

BUT, there is a possibility that plays were unusually clustered for Mac around 2.78ish, never throwing at 2.5, never getting 3. That would militate for high-reliability plays, but not with especially high upside. You could also get a predictable collapse at say, 2.8, which gives you the "holds onto the ball too long" read. (And paradoxically, now that you made me look, longer than 3.0 helps the defense more than the offense on average... that said I think we've seen Mac's slow -- in the 2022 system with 2022 personnel -- to see all the routes)

But yeah you won't see me demanding 3.5 anymore before we make a judgment on Mac.

By the way I realize that if you have 2.78 until a pass, reliably, and you like the results, you say he had a middle-of-the-pack release time, but it was way better in college when it was 2.51. If you don't like the results... and you are biased to kvetch about the O-line... you do things like ask for 3.5 sec. to throw.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Glad the thread got through at least some thoughtful, meaningful and worthwhile posts before this came up.

It does tend to produce more heat than light. That said, are you kidding me? A thread about what battles we'll be watching in camp, and nobody would be watching for who will be QB?

I don't think it'd be Zappe, btw, but it's an open competition. They're in relatively similar (and right now, very friendly) contract positions. And we legit do not know who gives us the best chance to win -- though my money is on Mac. The faux kremlinology of BB-fan mumble translation is not yielding a "that's my guy" answer either.

So yeah, had to happen.