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Freddie Roach

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Slagathor, Aug 7, 2006.

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  1. Slagathor

    Slagathor Rookie

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    I've heard a lot of folks on here mentioning how Roach is having a good camp and I haven't read any specifics.

    He was darkhorse for me going into camp.

    How's he holding up? Does he look like a sure thing or is it too soon to tell?
  2. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've heard the opposite from Casale:

    http://www.patriots.com/search/inde...0322&pcid=44&special_section=trainingcamp2006

    http://www.patriots.com/search/index.cfm?ac=searchdetail&pid=19877&pcid=41


    And "I'm Ron Borges?" offered up a similar opinion:

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=38380&highlight=roach

    Quite frankly, I agree. When I was at practice, Roach looked to be behind Gardner, Izzo, Davis, Beisel, Bruschi, Alexander, and even Mays on the ILB depth chart.

    It seems to me that Roach, Britt, and Stone are definitely getting overhyped by some around here (Stop the presses! Pats1 said something negative!). Just because BB has kept an UDFA on the roster the last 2 years doesn't mean he'll keep one this year. Just because Roach received a signing bonus doesn't mean he's ahead of the rest of the UDFA pack. I don't follow college football that much at all and don't recognize 90% of the draftees' names, but it sounded like everybody else on the board knew his name well and thought of him as the next Gay or Wright. Many are throwing them on the team just because "youth is needed at LB." It just isn't that simple.

    With Britt, he was cut by the Chargers but is suddenly now a near-lock to make the team by some, even "starting quality." He may have gotten injured, but let's wait until he actually plays a down in the NFL before we start proclaming his greatness. He has an uphill battle to climb to make the roster.

    John Stone faces a similar situation, as fans are reading into him starting with the first team when Brown, Jackson, and Branch were out. By a process of elimination with the other WRs vying for the last WR spot, he seems to always get the nod in roster predictions.

    Undrafted rookies or street free agents like Stone or Britt have to be spectacular during camp to make the roster. BB will take the best 53 he has, and not say "OK, we need a #6 WR," and pick from a mediocre group.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2006
  3. Slagathor

    Slagathor Rookie

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  4. Brady'sButtBoy

    Brady'sButtBoy Rookie

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    Easy on Big Freddie, please. BB still is in the process of working his miracle on Roach, so a little patience may be required.
  5. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    One of the most recent Patsfan.com reports muttered about Roach hitting the wrong holes and looking bad, but they also reported BB stayed after practice to work with Gardner and Roach on something, then left them working on a specific drill together...teaching, it's fundamental.
  6. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    From my views hes slow but everyone knew that about him coming in. What he looks good at is his ability to tackle and find the running back. He's bad at moving side to side and being the Roman Phifer type player in coverage.

    He still looks very good for an UDRFA you cant expect the guy to be flawless hes a work in progress.
  7. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

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    Seems to me Roach is the exact same guy coming in. We all knew he's a good ball player, he just is slow. Hmm...I think this whole season and next offseason would be a great time for Roach to start running with weight on his legs and squatting more. Lets get that speed up Freddie.
  8. FourInSixYears

    FourInSixYears Rookie

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    Does anyone hear anything on how Tully Banta-Cain has been doing? If he could contribute (which he seemed to a lot in the 2004/05 playoffs -- just look for #48 on "Three Games to Glory III"), that would make a huge difference. Vrabel could move back inside (which might actually help him prolong his career as any loss of speed would be less of a problem). What about Eric Alexander -- I seem to be reading a lot of his name in various contexts, but where has he been the last few years?
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2005
  9. BionicPatriot

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    Horrible. Every sinlg eperson, reporter, etc. has said nothing but bad things about him this TC.
  10. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    TBC is doing mostly ST work and playing on third and second team D's. Nothing special probably not where he should be from a coachs POV.

    Alexander was on the PS the last two years. He either makes the team or is released.
  11. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    This team needs a young Ted Johnson very, very badly. Unfortunately, it appears as if that man is not currently on the TC roster.
    Vrabel could be that man, but who then steps into his OLB spot?
    We need one more player...somehow...somewhere...
    Donnie Edwards at the right price, i.e., restructured contract, conditional 2nd day pick, would be welcome; his skill set more closely resembles Bruschi's, not TJ's, however.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2006
  12. Ichiro

    Ichiro Rookie

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    Oh yeah completely agree. We needed either a high round pick or developmental ILB for a few years now.
    I feel the real problem is in the college ranks. Few inside linebakcers in college carry the bulk needed to take on guards. Most of the good young inside linebackers like Vilma and Tatupu are just too small to play in our system. And converting OLB's to the inside is always risky.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2006
  13. PatsRI

    PatsRI PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    ****Warning bad joke of the day****

    Heard he got smoked on a few plays today:rolleyes: .
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2005
  14. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Either my faith is being severely tested or the Pats are looking at one more pickup, (Jeff Posey?).

    Teaching is fine, but you still can't make chicken salad out of you know what.
  15. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    This teams Ted Johnson is Monty Beisel. Big tackling hitting player just cant cover for the life of him.

    Jeff Posey at OLB would be a servicable addition.
  16. Ichiro

    Ichiro Rookie

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    Ted Johnson was excellent at reading guards, pickin a gap and bulling straight ahead. Plus he could really take on guards at the point of attack.

    Monty Beisel, as probably been discussed over and over, lacks any instinct at ILB. He is by far one of the slowest reacting LB's I've seen. On a lot of plays I've seen he is usually a second or two behind all 21 other players on the field. Because he is slow to react, guards get into his body or his angles are horrible. I do not think these instincts are taught and Beisel will not be someone we can live with at ILB for long.

    Did Beisel ever play ILB before he got here? I know he played on the outside with the Chiefs and DE at Kansas St.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2006
  17. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    I wasn't a huge Johnson fan, but even Lloyd Bentsen knows Beisel is no Ted Johnson.:D
  18. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    Beisels big thing last year was not being able to shed blocks and not knowing where he was supposed to be. Apparently hes put close to 8 pounds of muscle on to help shed blockers and has a better uderstanding of the system.

    Beisel played the line in KC.
  19. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    What I can't figure out, is how did Monty play at close to 270 at Kansas St.?
    I could take a guess, I suppose.
  20. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Yeah - by Jonathan Sullivan no less.
  21. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't have either TBC or Roach on my roster. My issue is whether we need a 4th OLB after Colvin, Vrabel and Brown? If we do, I think the man is Mincey rather than TBC, although TBC could still win the spot, if it is even there.
  22. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Definitely. TBC will likely stick because of what he brings to special teams, now that Mitchell is down. TBC, Izzo, Davis, and Gardner form the core of the special teams, so expect them to stick around. Vrabel, Colvin, Bruschi, Beisel and Brown make 9. Mincey makes 10. Alexander makes 11. Roach makes 12. Woods makes 13. Mays makes 14.

    The cut-off line is somewhere around 9/10/11.

    For any of the guys after 9 or 10 to make it, they'll have to unseat one of the STers by both showing a presence on special teams and a promise for quality depth in the future.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2006
  23. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Beisel was a DE coming out of Kansas State, he was a Special Teamer converting to LB in the Chiefs' system and due to injuries was forced into starting for spells the last couple years with the Chiefs - I don't know if he played all three positions, but he did start a few games at MLB, and started on the outside, probably at WLB.

    Football instincts can be taught. Instinct is nothing more then knowledge, eye sight, a brain to process the data and trigger the muscle groups, and the natural and developed talent to get where you need to be. Knowledge means knowing your "reads", eye sight allows you to see them quickly, working brain cells developed through practice and experience keep you from needing to open the reference books because you have that data memorized and set up on speed dial for the muscle groups. Have patience, Beisel is in his second year in BB's system, Tedy needed time to develop, Vrabel was a wash out after four years as a perennial backup for Cowher - if you want to consider the KC time as development time you can, but I wouldn't give him full credit for each year as it applies to BB's defense.

    I expect Beisel to be improved over last year, and still a step slow. When Vrabel moved inside next to Tedy, you could watch the reaction time on Tivo - Tedy was 3 steps ahead of Vrabes when they first started. By the end of the season, Vrabes had cut the margin in half. Monty has the tools, just consider this an exercise in teaching the kids to ride a bicycle, patience and repetitions and don't let them play in the road too early.
  24. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Typical 4-3 DE - pin your ears back and run for the 7 step drop mark. I believe it was Harrison37 who had knowledge of him in college and spoke well of his performance. BB has developed one outstanding LB from other team's reserves, Vrabel. He developed another outstanding LB from Parcells' and Carrol's reserves, Bruschi. We know it can be done, we'll just have to wait and complain while he works with Monty.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2005
  25. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Rookie

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    Beisel's developement may be the key to our LB situation. If he can step up, we should be in good shape. His lack of progress hurt us bad last year, but if he can get it together, that would change everything.
    Also, I'm starting to hear the name Gardner more and more.
    I look forward to fri night to see what's up.
  26. Ichiro

    Ichiro Rookie

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    Hmm... I agree with you to a point. I just thought Beisel played scared last year at times. He did not know what to do AND he didn't try to hit anyone.

    I drink the Kool-Aid like everyone else and believe if anyone can make Beisel an ILB its Belichick and his staff. I think Beisel could be a good backup OLB and special teamer. I just think playing on the outside (either at OLB or DE like Beisel did his whole career) over the outside shoulder of the tackle or TE is a whole different animal than playing inside with all the traffic and trapping lineman.

    My lasting impression of Beisel from last year was the Denver playoff game. I know some said he played well against Jacksonville so I watched him closely against the Broncos. The goaline play after Asante's bogus PI call showed me he had NOT improved. He was lined up against the left guard right behind Marquis Hill. The left guard holds Hill to a stalemate, and Denver's right guard is pulling into the hole created. Beisel is still four yards in the end zone as the pulling guard dives at his feet (doesn't get a body on Beisel). Touchdown Denver. This is like three seconds after the ball has snapped and Beisel did not move. Unacceptable for a starting NFL linebacker.
  27. Displaced - Fan

    Displaced - Fan Rookie

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    Hey we had a couple of Vets come in last year and try to pick up this system. Remeber them? Beisel, Brown? Gues what they siad about them early in the year: hitting the wrong holes and looking bad.

    Beisel has looked good this camp, he knows the system now. Roach is perfect for the PS this year. He needs time to learn the system, as do any new LB's.

    Just my view on things :)
  28. arrellbee

    arrellbee Rookie

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    Do you think that coaching will help his play where he doesn't even tackle runners in front of him ? And in one case in the Miami game where he actually had to pull up and hop over Colvin to avoid running into the RB right in front of him ?

    Ichiro - thanks for reference to the Denver game. I am interested to go back and take a look. Do you recall what play of the game that was ? Actually not that many rushing TDs, so I should be able to find it. Do you have an idea of how many plays Beisel was on the field ?
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2005
  29. TNPatsFan

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    Speaking of Freddie Roach, I like him and I hope he can find a way to stick around, whether it's on the roster or on the practice squad. He may be a little slow-footed, but I think he could develop into a good LB in time.
  30. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That was one of the only plays Beisel was out there. He worked mainly on speical teams, while Chad Brown saw some time instead of Bruschi at MLB in the 3-3 nickel.

    The play came with 1:45 left in the second quarter.

    Here how I saw it (probably in April, albeit):

    Last edited: Aug 8, 2006
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