Freddie Roach

[mgteich]

I don't have either TBC or Roach on my roster. My issue is whether we need a 4th OLB after Colvin, Vrabel and Brown? If we do, I think the man is Mincey rather than TBC, although TBC could still win the spot, if it is even there.

 

[pats1]

I don't have either TBC or Roach on my roster. My issue is whether we need a 4th OLB after Colvin, Vrabel and Brown?

Definitely. TBC will likely stick because of what he brings to special teams, now that Mitchell is down. TBC, Izzo, Davis, and Gardner form the core of the special teams, so expect them to stick around. Vrabel, Colvin, Bruschi, Beisel and Brown make 9. Mincey makes 10. Alexander makes 11. Roach makes 12. Woods makes 13. Mays makes 14.

The cut-off line is somewhere around 9/10/11.

For any of the guys after 9 or 10 to make it, they'll have to unseat one of the STers by both showing a presence on special teams and a promise for quality depth in the future.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Ted Johnson was excellent at reading guards, pickin a gap and bulling straight ahead. Plus he could really take on guards at the point of attack.

Monty Beisel, as probably been discussed over and over, lacks any instinct at ILB. He is by far one of the slowest reacting LB's I've seen. On a lot of plays I've seen he is usually a second or two behind all 21 other players on the field. Because he is slow to react, guards get into his body or his angles are horrible. I do not think these instincts are taught and Beisel will not be someone we can live with at ILB for long.

Did Beisel ever play ILB before he got here? I know he played on the outside with the Chiefs and DE at Kansas St.

Beisel was a DE coming out of Kansas State, he was a Special Teamer converting to LB in the Chiefs' system and due to injuries was forced into starting for spells the last couple years with the Chiefs - I don't know if he played all three positions, but he did start a few games at MLB, and started on the outside, probably at WLB.

Football instincts can be taught. Instinct is nothing more then knowledge, eye sight, a brain to process the data and trigger the muscle groups, and the natural and developed talent to get where you need to be. Knowledge means knowing your "reads", eye sight allows you to see them quickly, working brain cells developed through practice and experience keep you from needing to open the reference books because you have that data memorized and set up on speed dial for the muscle groups. Have patience, Beisel is in his second year in BB's system, Tedy needed time to develop, Vrabel was a wash out after four years as a perennial backup for Cowher - if you want to consider the KC time as development time you can, but I wouldn't give him full credit for each year as it applies to BB's defense.

I expect Beisel to be improved over last year, and still a step slow. When Vrabel moved inside next to Tedy, you could watch the reaction time on Tivo - Tedy was 3 steps ahead of Vrabes when they first started. By the end of the season, Vrabes had cut the margin in half. Monty has the tools, just consider this an exercise in teaching the kids to ride a bicycle, patience and repetitions and don't let them play in the road too early.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

What I can't figure out, is how did Monty play at close to 270 at Kansas St.?
I could take a guess, I suppose.

Typical 4-3 DE - pin your ears back and run for the 7 step drop mark. I believe it was Harrison37 who had knowledge of him in college and spoke well of his performance. BB has developed one outstanding LB from other team's reserves, Vrabel. He developed another outstanding LB from Parcells' and Carrol's reserves, Bruschi. We know it can be done, we'll just have to wait and complain while he works with Monty.

 

[CrazyDave]

Beisel's developement may be the key to our LB situation. If he can step up, we should be in good shape. His lack of progress hurt us bad last year, but if he can get it together, that would change everything.
Also, I'm starting to hear the name Gardner more and more.
I look forward to fri night to see what's up.

 

[Ichiro]

Beisel was a DE coming out of Kansas State, he was a Special Teamer converting to LB in the Chiefs' system and due to injuries was forced into starting for spells the last couple years with the Chiefs - I don't know if he played all three positions, but he did start a few games at MLB, and started on the outside, probably at WLB.

Football instincts can be taught. Instinct is nothing more then knowledge, eye sight, a brain to process the data and trigger the muscle groups, and the natural and developed talent to get where you need to be. Knowledge means knowing your "reads", eye sight allows you to see them quickly, working brain cells developed through practice and experience keep you from needing to open the reference books because you have that data memorized and set up on speed dial for the muscle groups. Have patience, Beisel is in his second year in BB's system, Tedy needed time to develop, Vrabel was a wash out after four years as a perennial backup for Cowher - if you want to consider the KC time as development time you can, but I wouldn't give him full credit for each year as it applies to BB's defense.

I expect Beisel to be improved over last year, and still a step slow. When Vrabel moved inside next to Tedy, you could watch the reaction time on Tivo - Tedy was 3 steps ahead of Vrabes when they first started. By the end of the season, Vrabes had cut the margin in half. Monty has the tools, just consider this an exercise in teaching the kids to ride a bicycle, patience and repetitions and don't let them play in the road too early.

Hmm... I agree with you to a point. I just thought Beisel played scared last year at times. He did not know what to do AND he didn't try to hit anyone.

I drink the Kool-Aid like everyone else and believe if anyone can make Beisel an ILB its Belichick and his staff. I think Beisel could be a good backup OLB and special teamer. I just think playing on the outside (either at OLB or DE like Beisel did his whole career) over the outside shoulder of the tackle or TE is a whole different animal than playing inside with all the traffic and trapping lineman.

My lasting impression of Beisel from last year was the Denver playoff game. I know some said he played well against Jacksonville so I watched him closely against the Broncos. The goaline play after Asante's bogus PI call showed me he had NOT improved. He was lined up against the left guard right behind Marquis Hill. The left guard holds Hill to a stalemate, and Denver's right guard is pulling into the hole created. Beisel is still four yards in the end zone as the pulling guard dives at his feet (doesn't get a body on Beisel). Touchdown Denver. This is like three seconds after the ball has snapped and Beisel did not move. Unacceptable for a starting NFL linebacker.

 

[Displaced - Fan]

One of the most recent Patsfan.com reports muttered about Roach hitting the wrong holes and looking bad, but they also reported BB stayed after practice to work with Gardner and Roach on something, then left them working on a specific drill together...teaching, it's fundamental.

Hey we had a couple of Vets come in last year and try to pick up this system. Remeber them? Beisel, Brown? Gues what they siad about them early in the year: hitting the wrong holes and looking bad.

Beisel has looked good this camp, he knows the system now. Roach is perfect for the PS this year. He needs time to learn the system, as do any new LB's.

Just my view on things

 

[arrellbee]

Beisel was a DE coming out of Kansas State, he was a Special Teamer converting to LB in the Chiefs' system and due to injuries was forced into starting for spells the last couple years with the Chiefs - I don't know if he played all three positions, but he did start a few games at MLB, and started on the outside, probably at WLB.

Football instincts can be taught. Instinct is nothing more then knowledge, eye sight, a brain to process the data and trigger the muscle groups, and the natural and developed talent to get where you need to be. Knowledge means knowing your "reads", eye sight allows you to see them quickly, working brain cells developed through practice and experience keep you from needing to open the reference books because you have that data memorized and set up on speed dial for the muscle groups. Have patience, Beisel is in his second year in BB's system, Tedy needed time to develop, Vrabel was a wash out after four years as a perennial backup for Cowher - if you want to consider the KC time as development time you can, but I wouldn't give him full credit for each year as it applies to BB's defense.

I expect Beisel to be improved over last year, and still a step slow. When Vrabel moved inside next to Tedy, you could watch the reaction time on Tivo - Tedy was 3 steps ahead of Vrabes when they first started. By the end of the season, Vrabes had cut the margin in half. Monty has the tools, just consider this an exercise in teaching the kids to ride a bicycle, patience and repetitions and don't let them play in the road too early.

Do you think that coaching will help his play where he doesn't even tackle runners in front of him ? And in one case in the Miami game where he actually had to pull up and hop over Colvin to avoid running into the RB right in front of him ?

Ichiro - thanks for reference to the Denver game. I am interested to go back and take a look. Do you recall what play of the game that was ? Actually not that many rushing TDs, so I should be able to find it. Do you have an idea of how many plays Beisel was on the field ?

 

[TNPatsFan]

Speaking of Freddie Roach, I like him and I hope he can find a way to stick around, whether it's on the roster or on the practice squad. He may be a little slow-footed, but I think he could develop into a good LB in time.

 

[pats1]

Do you think that coaching will help his play where he doesn't even tackle runners in front of him ? And in one case in the Miami game where he actually had to pull up and hop over Colvin to avoid running into the RB right in front of him ?

Ichiro - thanks for reference to the Denver game. I am interested to go back and take a look. Do you recall what play of the game that was ? Actually not that many rushing TDs, so I should be able to find it. Do you have an idea of how many plays Beisel was on the field ?

That was one of the only plays Beisel was out there. He worked mainly on speical teams, while Chad Brown saw some time instead of Bruschi at MLB in the 3-3 nickel.

The play came with 1:45 left in the second quarter.

Here how I saw it (probably in April, albeit):

1st and 10 NE 1

Result: Run, Anderson, left guard, 1 yd., TOUCHDOWN.
Offense: 1 WR left wing in motion from right wing, 2 TE, 1 down off LT, 1 down off RT, FB in I-form with Anderson at RB.
Defense: 6-4-1, McGinest-Seymour-Warren-Wilfork-Hill-Green line, Izzo tight left edge, Vrabel tight right edge, Hobbs-Beisel-Bruschi in endzone

Blocking: McGinest sets containment on the right edge against the TE Duke
Seymour drives across the RT Foster towards the run
Warren is stood up by the C
Wilfork drives the LG to his knees
Hill gets penetration on the LT but eventually falls to his knees while Anderson dives into the endzone to Hill’s left
Green has the TE Alexander cut into his legs
Izzo sheds the WR Smith’s block on the edge but can’t get over to Anderson in time
Hobbs followed Smith in motion and on the run dove on Anderson in the endzone
Beisel meets Anderson in the hole but is driven back at first by the pulling RG and then by Anderson into the endzone

Analysis: Beisel did a good job of getting up into the hole, but the RG was able to just knock him off enough for Anderson to slip through across the goal line. Bruschi was shadowing the FB on the other side of the line and not involved in the play. The Broncos attacked the weaker side of the Patriots line, where Hill and Wilfork were unable to shed blocks and get in Anderson’s way.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Do you think that coaching will help his play where he doesn't even tackle runners in front of him ? And in one case in the Miami game where he actually had to pull up and hop over Colvin to avoid running into the RB right in front of him ?

Ichiro - thanks for reference to the Denver game. I am interested to go back and take a look. Do you recall what play of the game that was ? Actually not that many rushing TDs, so I should be able to find it. Do you have an idea of how many plays Beisel was on the field ?

bee: Your opinion has been noted, weighed against BB's opinion (he's here and practicing with the first team) I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I will be watching the Hotlanta game for my first 06 impression.

 

[mgteich]

With Gay and Harrison now off PUP, I think we have 10 defensive backs. Seven are positions players:
Harrison,Wilson,Hawkins,Hobbs,Samuels,Gay,Chad Scott
Three are primarily special teamers: Sanders, Guss Scott, and Tebucky Jones
============================================
You have five position players at LB
Vrabel,Bruschi,Beisel,Colvin and Brown
I would think we need at least one backup ILB, so I add Gardner.

You have three special teamers (in addition to Gardner)
Izzo, Davis and TBC
==============================================
Personally I think that we are keeping 19 (9-10 dbs and 9-10 lb's).

I agree that any of the rest would need to beat out one of the STer's. I think Alexander will beat out TBC, if it comes to that. Some would have Mincey beating out somebody. Maybe we keep both Alexander and TBC and lose Tebucky. Perhaps Tebucky has already beat made unnecessary by the return of Harrison and Guss Scott (time for another thread).
==============================================

Definitely. TBC will likely stick because of what he brings to special teams, now that Mitchell is down. TBC, Izzo, Davis, and Gardner form the core of the special teams, so expect them to stick around. Vrabel, Colvin, Bruschi, Beisel and Brown make 9. Mincey makes 10. Alexander makes 11. Roach makes 12. Woods makes 13. Mays makes 14.

The cut-off line is somewhere around 9/10/11.

For any of the guys after 9 or 10 to make it, they'll have to unseat one of the STers by both showing a presence on special teams and a promise for quality depth in the future.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I don't think football instincts can be taught. I think football knowledge can be taught, but instincts, either you have it or you don't.

For example, the offense runs a sweep to the Z side of the formation. BB can teach the ILB what his keys are and which gaps he is responsible for, and if the player is knowledgable, he'll go to the right place in the hope the runner shows up there.

However on the same play, the instictive player will know from the snap of the ball where that play is going. No reading, no hoping. He knows.

Bruschi, Singletary, Butkus, Nitshke and even our own Steve Nelson, they were blessed with instincts, to the point of actually overcoming some athletic short comings.

 

[spacecrime]

BB can teach the ILB what his keys are and which gaps he is responsible for, and if the player is knowledgable, he'll go to the right place in the hope the runner shows up there.

However on the same play, the instictive player will know from the snap of the ball where that play is going. No reading, no hoping. He knows.

No reading keys, huh? He jsut knows. Plays by sense of smell?

Seriously, you are saying that the player who reads keys and goes where BB says he should go has to "hope" teh runner will end up there? ANd the player who instinctively knows where to go just goes there without reading keys?

This is so wrong. All the players are reading the same keys and know where each defensive person will be. Or is supposed to be. If a player goes to his lane based on a key, he isn't hoping the runner will be there. He is there in case the runner is there. Other players fill other lanes. They "instinctive guy" who goes to where he believes the ball carrier will be leaves a lane open for a cutback and big gainer.

What you are descibing as an instinctive player is actually the one out of position. The read-the-keys guy is the one in the proper position, whether the ball carrier is there or not. He has other jobs besdies tackling. That inlcudes staying home to contain or to fill a lane.

 

[arrellbee]

Thanks one more time, Pats1, for really great analysis (and the time it takes to do that ! ). That was very interesting info.

 

[CrazyDave]

Freddie Roach, will he make the High Times all star team, along with Poteat?

 

[arrellbee]

bee: Your opinion has been noted, weighed against BB's opinion (he's here and practicing with the first team) I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

As I think you asked me before, I had high hopes for Beisel - he looked like another of those 'steals' that we have come to appreciate from BB/SP. The more I look, the more I get discouraged. However ..... you have an incontrovertible point that BB is still giving him the opportunity to succeed and hasn't written him off yet. And we SO much need a solid LB to pair with Bruschi (hopefully to allow Vrabel to play his outstanding OLB)

I will be watching the Hotlanta game for my first 06 impression.

You and me both. Again, we do so need somebody to step up - maybe Beisel will be it. Maybe meet back here after the game (and the subsequent 3 preseason games - Beisel will probably get his chance in all of those.)

 

[captain stone]

Speaking of ILB candidates with size, a non-stop motor and football intelligence...how has Dan Klecko looked so far?


A guy can dream, can't he?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Speaking of ILB candidates with size, a non-stop motor and football intelligence...how has Dan Klecko looked so far?


A guy can dream, can't he?

I like this football fantasy, but as long as they limit his LB reps (he got some OLB reps in mini-camp, but has only been used at MLB in a goal line drill in TC) and keep using him to shore up the competition along the DL, we can expect Dan to be a bubble player. This may be because he really doesn't fit well with the team, or it may be a factor of his versatility being just too tempting to the coaches who keep him on the move. I see no reason to write him off yet, he always surprises when BB makes up his roster.

 

[Ichiro]

I like this football fantasy, but as long as they limit his LB reps (he got some OLB reps in mini-camp, but has only been used at MLB in a goal line drill in TC) and keep using him to shore up the competition along the DL, we can expect Dan to be a bubble player. This may be because he really doesn't fit well with the team, or it may be a factor of his versatility being just too tempting to the coaches who keep him on the move. I see no reason to write him off yet, he always surprises when BB makes up his roster.

The hold that Klecko committed against Carolina as a fullback last year was devastating and I think it was both a turning point in the game and Dan Klecko's career.