Envious of that Seattle Defense.

[IllegalContact]

I am envious of Tom Brady and only Tom Brady

 

[Ring 6]

It was only a little over a week ago that I was basically called an idiot becasue I didn't see how letting Jamie Collins go helped this team.

I kept getting the "If BB thinks letting Collins go helps this team, then it helps this team."

I don't think anyone said Collins is not a good enough football player to help the team.
But if he can play better than the next guy up, but is an attitude problem, and a guy who shows up the coaching staff (the one that lives by do your job) by doing what he wants instead of his assignment the negatives outweigh the positives he brings.
At every level of football I played, in 11 years of playing the game, there were players who were talented that were benched because they wanted to play their defense instead of the defense that was called.

 

[Mack Herron]

Here are some pertinent numbers.
In this game, the Seattle defense was better by the margin of stopping 1st and goal from the 1, otherwise they were very equal.

Prior to this game:
Seattle allowed an average of 16.75 ppg to teams that averaged 23.3
New England allowed an avg 16.5 ppg to teams that averaged 22.2

Somehow this means that people on this board conclude the Seahawks are the best defense in the NFL and the Patriots are crap.

But this is not my view. People are always too depressed after a loss and too elated after a win. We are champions or we suck. I think the Pats defense can be good enough to win a championship. They have issues, to be sure, probably more than Seattle. The Pats still don't know who their CBs are and they dont create turnovers. They have missed Jones, Hicks and Easly. Those are real problems, but not necessarily insoluble. They have time, and good coaches. They will need both.

 

[luuked]

It was only a little over a week ago that I was basically called an idiot becasue I didn't see how letting Jamie Collins go helped this team.

I kept getting the "If BB thinks letting Collins go helps this team, then it helps this team."

Dont see what changed. You still are an idiot.

 

[Kontradiction]

Dont see what changed. You still are an idiot.

The biggest loss on the defensive side of the ball from 2015 to 2016 isn't Collins or Jones... it's Hicks. The Patriots BADLY miss what he brought to the table.

 

[luuked]

The biggest loss on the defensive side of the ball from 2015 to 2016 isn't Collins or Jones... it's Hicks. The Patriots BADLY miss what he brought to the table.

I totally agree. I think this is the Danny Woodhead situation all over again. Interior pressure really is what we are missing.

 

[Kontradiction]

I totally agree. I think this is the Danny Woodhead situation all over again. Interior pressure really is what we are missing.

Yep. And considering the amount of cap space that will clear up for the Pats this offseason, his deal is looking relatively affordable right now. Hopefully Brown can improve and give them even a quarter of what Hicks provided in 2015 once the postseason comes around.

 

[Joey007]

The biggest loss on the defensive side of the ball from 2015 to 2016 isn't Collins or Jones... it's Hicks. The Patriots BADLY miss what he brought to the table.

I really haven't thought about that. That's a very valid point though. Hicks wasn't a superstar, but he was very consistent. Our interior pass rush last year consisted of him, and the off and on bursting flashes we'd get from Easley. Now both are gone.

Anyone else kinda forget about Easley already?

 

[Sicilian]

I really haven't thought about that. That's a very valid point though. Hicks wasn't a superstar, but he was very consistent. Our interior pass rush last year consisted of him, and the off and on bursting flashes we'd get from Easley. Now both are gone.

Anyone else kinda forget about Easley already?

I think most of the league has forgotten about Easley. 9 games (no starts) and only half a sack for the Rams.

 

[Ring 6]

But this is not my view. People are always too depressed after a loss and too elated after a win. We are champions or we suck. I think the Pats defense can be good enough to win a championship. They have issues, to be sure, probably more than Seattle. The Pats still don't know who their CBs are and they dont create turnovers. They have missed Jones, Hicks and Easly. Those are real problems, but not necessarily insoluble. They have time, and good coaches. They will need both.

OK, but you were claiming Seattle's defense has been significantly better than the Patriots.
You are right though, fans see things through different glasses.
For example, take a deeper look at the Pats and Hawks

This thread is titled ENVIOUS OF SEATTLE D, and there are comments about how terrific they are, that they don't even scheme they are that good, that it is the best defense in the NFL, and that the Patriots basically cannot cover anyone.

So when we look at the numbers we see:

Comp % Seattle 63.4% NE 63.1%
YPA Seattle 7.3 NE 7.0
Rush yards Seattle 96.8 NE 101.0

Now I would agree that inside the supporting numbers Seattle has played a little better so far this year, and that they are likely the better defense, but just isolating the pass D where Patriot fans are calling this a repeat of the 2011 defense which was the worst BB has had, and the Seahawks are the best in the league, opposing QBs complete a higher percentage for more yards against Seattle. The totals are the Patriots allowed 18 more completions in 30 more attempts for 98 yards.

By the way, when you consider the turnover issue, the Patriots who in your words 'don't create turnovers' but Seattle has been described here as a physical team that ball hawks and forces turnovers, which our defense doesn't do, the fact is Seattle has 10 takeaways, the Patriots have 9. One surprisingly underthrown unforced error by Brady (or Ryan or Hightower holding on to picks) away from even.

 

[Vindicate]

I wonder if Bill leveraged his bets on too much Terrance Knighton to be disruptive in the middle, which would have covered the sting of Hicks' loss. I was pretty happy when we brought that guy in and mad when he didn't work out. I had an idea he wouldn't work but really hoped for the best.

 

[brdmaverick]

Try not to hurt your shoulder patting yourself on the back after one game.

You don't get it. That's not the point. I get annoyed by those people who don't even want to even have a discussion that something Belichick may or may not have done. They just spit out that he's the greatest coach of alltime and knows a lot more about football than I do. While I would agree 100% with that statement that does NOT mean that he is above making mistakes in certain situations.

I'll be honest, I don't think Jamie Collins would have been the difference maker in this Seattle game. I just don't think getting rid of him helps our 'average at best' defense get better.

 

[brdmaverick]

Dont see what changed. You still are an idiot.

stay classy buddy

 

[luuked]

stay classy buddy

You are talking a big game how others don't wanna have discussion about things and then a single game after trading a player away you jump to declare it a failure instead of giving the coaching staff time to realign everything.

Show me one person who claimed that the team would immediately be better without Collins. I have said it before and I will say it again the coaching staff and this trade will be judged by how the team performs in the post season.

 

[Ring 6]

You don't get it. That's not the point. I get annoyed by those people who don't even want to even have a discussion that something Belichick may or may not have done. They just spit out that he's the greatest coach of alltime and knows a lot more about football than I do. While I would agree 100% with that statement that does NOT mean that he is above making mistakes in certain situations.
.

But the extension of this is that if we agree that not only is he more qualified to make the decision, he also has volumes more of information about the factors that go into the decision that you do, so if you say he made a mistake you would only be correct by luck.

 

[PatsFan2]

Yep. And considering the amount of cap space that will clear up for the Pats this offseason, his deal is looking relatively affordable right now. Hopefully Brown can improve and give them even a quarter of what Hicks provided in 2015 once the postseason comes around.

I thought Vincent Valentine was playing really well before his injury I hope he can regain his form.

 

[brdmaverick]

But the extension of this is that if we agree that not only is he more qualified to make the decision, he also has volumes more of information about the factors that go into the decision that you do, so if you say he made a mistake you would only be correct by luck.

To classify it as luck would insinuate that we as fans have absolutely no knowledge of the game and or strategy to even formulate a logical opinion...which I would disagree with.

So because Bill is Bill and we are merely only fans we can't even merely discuss things like........

1.) If an onside kick against Philly was the right move?

2.) if electing to kick in OT against hte Jets was the right move?

3.) if the entire gameplan against the Dolphins in the season finale was the right move?

5.) If letting go of Jamie Collins and/or Chandler Jones was the right move

....because Bill has so much more knowledge than us.

Please, this is a fan forum, we're supposed to have these discussions. If not, what are we doing here?

 

[brdmaverick]

You are talking a big game how others don't wanna have discussion about things and then a single game after trading a player away you jump to declare it a failure instead of giving the coaching staff time to realign everything.

Show me one person who claimed that the team would immediately be better without Collins. I have said it before and I will say it again the coaching staff and this trade will be judged by how the team performs in the post season.

Me talking a big game? Honestly I was shocked that saying that "Getting rid of a player of All Pro talent from your already average defense doesn't make them better" was such a controversial stance.........to be honest, I expect more of a "no (bleep), but it had to be done due to attitude" or something like that. Instead that somehow is talkign a big game and people like you and others find that to be an idiotic statement for some reason.

I'm concerned about the style of defense in general.....not just Collin's departure. I want more of an attack defense. That will help create turnovers. Yes, it will give up big plays as well, but I like our teams chances in a shootout. We should actually be rooting for shootouts. Instead, we play a defense that lets the other teams dink and dunk and kill the clock ..... which I think plays right into what the other teams want to do.

The team is still good, don't get me wrong. We're 7-2 so clearly we've got some wins with the bend but don't break defense. Like you, however, I do get concerned come playoff time.

 

[Ring 6]

To classify it as luck would insinuate that we as fans have absolutely no knowledge of the game and or strategy to even formulate a logical opinion...which I would disagree with.

So because Bill is Bill and we are merely only fans we can't even merely discuss things like........

Doesn't say that at all. It says that if you agree he is more knowledgable than you, and has more information with which to make the decision, then you disagreeing with him is more likely wrong that right, and it would only be a lucky guess.

1.) If an onside kick against Philly was the right move?

Hindsight. If it worked yes. It was a risk. Coaches need to take risks. By definition it could fail.
I am sure that he has taken a number of risks that you would have disagreed with, but they worked so you don't count those.

2.) if electing to kick in OT against hte Jets was the right move?

Again hindsight. You do not know what would have happened it they received, nor did you know what would happen if they kicked.

3.) if the entire gameplan against the Dolphins in the season finale was the right move?

It depends. We do not know what the reasoning was. It has been reported that the post mortem of the season after the AFCCG by the coaching staff was that when teams dared them to run they couldn't. Taking the beginning of a game to force the issue with the run and see what you have may be a bigger picture issue.

5.) If letting go of Jamie Collins and/or Chandler Jones was the right move

Again he is smarter about these decisions and has more information than you. If Collins was becoming a malingering locker room cancer, how would you know? Jones was not being resigned and they got a good return for him.

....because Bill has so much more knowledge than us.

WAY more

Please, this is a fan forum, we're supposed to have these discussions. If not, what are we doing here?

When did I say not to? I am pointing out that YOU agree he is better equipped to make the decision and has more information at his disposal. To imply you can consistently pick his mistakes implies you do not agree with that and you know better.
You can have whatever opinion you want, but to pretend it is informed or more likely to be right than BB is silly. If we were talking about Rex Ryan or the Jaguars, then wild guesses may be more likely to be right. Here, not so much.

 

[luuked]

1.) If an onside kick against Philly was the right move?

There was no onside kick in this game. If you mean the dropkick then we gave up 10-15 yards of space in exchange for maybe catching the opponent off guard. Was it necessary ? Nope. Was it arrogant ? Perhaps. Is it the cause for losing that game like so many claim ? Definitely not.

2.) if electing to kick in OT against hte Jets was the right move?

The offense could not move the ball for the entire damn game on the Jets. It required two (!!) desperate fourth down conversions to even tie the game. Given what we saw throughout the game it was not a mistake to assume that we would have kept having issues moving the ball. On the other hand, our defense shut the Jets down for almost the entire second half. I don't even remotely understand how people don't get why we kicked the ball. It's totally obvious, it was the right call because it gave us better odds to win.

3.) if the entire gameplan against the Dolphins in the season finale was the right move?

The Dolphins game is one big mystery to me and I have no idea what was going on inside the building. The team appeared unprepared and not focused. Yes, we were missing key players but that game was borderline embarrassing and I agree with everyone critizising the coaching staff for it.




SEATTLE, SEATTLE.. actually without going political on that, I think he could have avoided that one mostly because it was obvious that it would become a controversy. If you really wanna just let a friend know about your respect, you don't need to give him permission to read it out loud..

5.) If letting go of Jamie Collins and/or Chandler Jones was the right move

We don't know yet.

Fact is that both would have left us at the end of this season anyway. If there was a chance to find middleground for an extension they'd most probably still be here. I have written my opinion about Chandler Jones so often (great player on a rookie contract, overpaid on a market pass rusher deal) that it's pointless to repeat it. Collins came a bit out of nowhere but the move makes sense if you feel that he doesn't 100% buy into the team. Freelancing, not watching a lot of tape, not really enjoying football that much.. those are things that just send the wrong message.. especially in the team-first operation that BB runs. That doesn't make him less of a football player but less of a fit for Foxboro.