Deion Branch Discussion

[robbomango]

To say our Offense is complex is OVERRATED just like our Complex Defense...i consider that all hog wash! If the WR's we pick up wasn't so Stupid! we wouldn't have that problem. You are telling me that Hackeem Nicks - Victor Cruz or Mario Manning couldn't learn our Offense? For every Taylor Price there is a Victor Cruz and for every Ocho Stinko there is a Laurent Robinson. My point is other Teams have don quite well in evaluating WR's, the Patriots have been terrible in that department. Time to shake things up...with the success around the League it's cannot be that difficult.

Last night on his upstream Randy Moss said the NE offense in comparison to others he's played for was like going from general math straight to calculus.

 

[PatsFan2]

Last night on his upstream Randy Moss said the NE offense in comparison to others he's played for was like going from general math straight to calculus.

So it shows that it's a Offense that is dependant on Skilled Route runners one who could adjust their routes on a dime. Wes Welker excells at that and a younger Deion Branch was. See Randy Moss and Ocho Stinko ran primarily Vertical Routes how much brains do you need if you only run verticals. Albeit Randy was smarter but Ocho is so dumb that he could even play more snaps than a injured Gronk. When was the last time a Patriot WR run a Come back route. That's how effective our next WR have to be, he must be more than ONLY a Vertical threat.

 

[Deus Irae]

All i am saying is i wouldn't want to have a ineffective guy out there in our Offense "just because he knows the system", Of what benefit would he be if he cannot get separation? Lets stop selling our Offense short it lacks Big play potential which could open things up more.

Branch caught 51 passes as the team's #4 receiving option. You're trying to conflate 2 separate arguments.

1.) Big play potential

2.) Branch's effectiveness


They aren't the same. I think most people have come around to what some of us have been saying the past couple of years, which is that the Patriots need to be better able to threaten middle-deep. That doesn't immediately mean that Branch has no place on the team. The Patriots could easily do something like:

Veteran FA - WR1
Welker - Slot/WR2
Edelman - Backup to Welker a/k/a WR4
Branch - WR3/mentor to rookie WR
Rookie WR - WR5
Slater - ST/WR6

and that would significantly upgrade the team's offense, at least in theory. For example, there would be opportunities to run

FA/WR1
Welker
Branch
Gronk
Hernandez

with an empty backfield and with Hernandez lining up in the backfield, which would give the Patriots more wrinkles for other teams to have to defend.

 

[Patspsycho]

So it shows that it's a Offense that is dependant on Skilled Route runners one who could adjust their routes on a dime. Wes Welker excells at that and a younger Deion Branch was. See Randy Moss and Ocho Stinko ran primarily Vertical Routes how much brains do you need if you only run verticals. Albeit Randy was smarter but Ocho is so dumb that he could even play more snaps than a injured Gronk. When was the last time a Patriot WR run a Come back route. That's how effective our next WR have to be, he must be more than ONLY a Vertical threat.

Randy has a very high football IQ. The problem with him has always never been his skill or intelligence, but his attitude.

 

[signbabybrady]

All i am saying is i wouldn't want to have a ineffective guy out there in our Offense "just because he knows the system", Of what benefit would he be if he cannot get separation? Lets stop selling our Offense short it lacks Big play potential which could open things up more.

Any guy who does not know or more accurately can not learn the offense is ineffective. On that statement alone it is of huge value to have a guy lower on the depth chart who knows it inside and out.

Lets compare two prolific Patriots offense 07 and this past year in top receiving targets TE and WR combined (top 7 by yards gained in order)

07
Moss 1493
Welker 1175
Stallworth 697
Gaffney 449
Watson 389
Kyle Brady 70
other recievers on the roster were Chad Jack and Troy and I assume I might be missing someone else too but the sight I had showed no ther receiver as getting a catch. RBs Faulk and Maroney had more receiving yards than Kyle but this exercise is just for WR and TE

11
Welker 1569
Gronk 1327
Hernandez 910
Branch 702
Ocho 276
Slater 46
Edelman 34
BG and the Wood were ahead of slater in receiving yards but again this about WR and TE

Take this for what it is worth but looks like Branch out preformed the younger more explosive Stallworth and Gaffney. Bottom line Branch was the fourth option this year and outpreformed the third option that year. In the end what does this mean? IMO it means we are all way to caught up in who the 3rd or fourth pass catcher will be when we have bigger issues on D.

It would also probably be very valueable to look at 08 to see how Moss and Welker followed that up especially considering it was Cassell throwing to them

1,2,3 Welker 1165, Moss1008, Gaffney 468 again what does this say? When your top two guys produce like Gronk and Welker or like Moss and Welker it doesnt matter that much what is after it you can still win games. Now if we bring back Welker going into next year you already have 3 guys who produce at or close to this level. Pick up the deep threat keep branch for depth and move onto the D.

Stats came from Pro football reference Pro-Football-Reference.com - Pro Football Statistics and History

 

[Nunchucks]

Branch doesn't have any explosion anymore. He can't beat man coverage and he isn't a threat as an outside receiver. I wouldn't mind bringing him back as a backup, but the Patriots need a real playmaker on the outside. Too often we see teams flood the middle zone and the Patriots have no answer.

 

[DaBruinz]

Branch did get open in the SB. 4 times last 2 drives.

When Welker "dropped", Branch was open on the sideline. Brady could have gone to him, it would have been 3rd and short if not 1st down.
Next, Branch gets wide open, Brady throws behind. Either Brady's injury affected the throw, or Branch was even faster than Brady thought he was and the throw ended up behind.

Last drive, Branch gets wide open running across the middle. Branch hurried the throw and threw it over a Giant defender who affected the catch. If Brady waits 1 more second, Branch is wide open to the left with no Giant defender to throw over.

Then Branch got open and converted 4th down and 16.

Thats 4 times he got open. So I would say that Branch still has it, I would definitely keep him.

He knows the Pats system very well and doesnt do stupid things.
With every rookie WR, you run the risk of him not being able to pick up the system and integrate.

Sorry, your definition of "open" is different than most people. Branch was not open on the play where Philips deflected the ball. Or don't you understand that it was a Zone coverage scheme and Philips had the play there in the middle?

Branch wasn't "wide open" on the play that Welker dropped the ball. And Branch dropped one himself. And it wasn't behind him.

But thanks for your input.

 

[DaBruinz]

So you Guys are telling me that in the Best year ever for FA WR's you guys would rather keep a diminshing skills Deion Branch over say a guy going into his prime? Check this list again and tell me the Patriots couldn't find somebody younger or better than Branch! You guys gotta be kidding me. So Glad BB is making the decisions and not some of us.:snob:


2012 NFL Free Agents: WR

Pierre Garcon (IND) - Prone to drops

Early Doucet (ARZ)

Eddie Royal (DEN)

Anthony Gonzalez (IND) - Injury prone. Doesn't produce.

Harry Douglas (ATL) - Hasn't produced

Any combination of those guys could more than replace Deion Branch!

You could have picked much better examples. Such as Colston, Wayne, Meachem, Morgan, Cotchery.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Re: Deion Branch - Discuss

Deion Branch was not the problem at any time this year. This is the way I'd rate our pass catchers:

Gronkowski- A
Hernandez- B+
Welker- A-

Branch- C/C+

Edelman- D
Ochocinco- D/F
Slater- D/F
Underwood- F

The problem is just how bad our bad receivers are. I would be thrilled to have two or three guys of Branch's caliber in our lineup. He has good hands and instincts, and he can make teams pay at times. Edelman and Slater are not even real WRs; Underwood is a practice squad guy. Ochocinco does not and will not understand the system. Price and Tate were both cut.

We just need players that are adequate to make plays when the defenses focus on shutting down the big three. We don't need Calvin Johnson, we just need guys that can beat a nickel back or linebacker in coverage.

Posts like this one make me wonder. Branch is done. This foolish experiment will be ended this offseason.

 

[DaBruinz]

To say our Offense is complex is OVERRATED just like our Complex Defense...i consider that all hog wash! If the WR's we pick up wasn't so Stupid! we wouldn't have that problem. You are telling me that Hackeem Nicks - Victor Cruz or Mario Manning couldn't learn our Offense? For every Taylor Price there is a Victor Cruz and for every Ocho Stinko there is a Laurent Robinson. My point is other Teams have don quite well in evaluating WR's, the Patriots have been terrible in that department. Time to shake things up...with the success around the League it's cannot be that difficult.

Spoken like someone who clearly has no clue about how complex the Pats offense truly is. Clearly you don't understand that Pats receivers are supposed to read the defense and select the same route they are going to run that Brady selects. Without the ability to actually communicate what route Brady is actually selecting for them. And they usually have 3-5 different routes depending on where they are lining up. As mentioned, there have been numerous receivers who have stated how complex the Pats system is. Troy Brown. Reche Caldwell. Randy Moss. Joey Galloway. Chad OchoCinco. We3s Welker. They've all stated it. Yet, you think they are just lying through their teeth and that the Pats system is easy..

It's funny you mention Laurent Robinson because he can't seem to stick with a team. He spent 3 years in Atlanta and did mostly nothing. Then went to St. Louis and had a good season, only to be not brought back. He signed with San Diego, but was cut by them. Then was signed by Dallas after Miles Austin was injured. The offenses in St. Louis and Dallas aren't that complicated at all.

 

[signbabybrady]

Sorry, your definition of "open" is different than most people. Branch was not open on the play where Philips deflected the ball. Or don't you understand that it was a Zone coverage scheme and Philips had the play there in the middle?

I think it is easy to understand the Giants coverage as Phillips made the play but I also dont know how you can ignore that this play was a better throw or a throw that came a split second later away from being a 20-40 yard gain and could have been enough to jump start that drive . Branch was running free and there was no one outside of Phillips to make a play.

But I dont see where one play or one game takes away from the guys body of work.

Bottom line is as the fourth passing option on this team Branch put up more yards receiving than the third option did on the 07 team. I am not ignoring the need for an outside deep threat or the need to not have him as your 2nd best WR but I am and continue to be annoyed by those who just want to cast him off as if he has no value.

I want to spend the money on first retaining the key FA that helped us get to the SB and then on the defense. If we assume all FA come back to us thus not creating a new hole then the only need I see on offense is One WR who threatens the deep half of the field and who ideally makes Branch the 3rd WR. Now thats the one need I am willing to concede that it be prudent to try and fill this one need two fold Vet FA and a draft pick which could land branch as low as 4th on the WR depth chart.

 

[DaBruinz]

So what are you saying it cannot be learned??? I mean a younger Branch learned it...David Givens learned it, Moss learned it, Jabar Gaffney learned it, even slow @ss Reche Caldwell learned it. My point again is the Patriots need to evaluate better in knowing which FA or Draftee WR could learn their Offense! Somebody have to be accountable for the lack of success in that area. Others Teams just don't have our Problems at that position.

You really don't understand.
David Givens and Deion Branch learned it because that's the only system they knew once they got here.

Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell had to have Brady, literally, show them how he wanted the routes run before they got it.

Randy Moss was able to learn it because he has an exceptional football intelligence.

Your point is that you don't understand that there are very limited things that the Pats can do in terms of evaluating players in regards to film study, ready defenses, and having players make adjustments based on those reads and have those reads be the same as Tom Brady's reads.

Other teams don't run a system as complex as the Patriots. On other teams, the play is sent in and the receivers know they have to run a set route. Any adjustments will be made via an audible by the QB after he's read the defense. Adjustments typically aren't done by the WR reading the defense other than cutting a route short.

 

[skinnydog]

This question about Deion Branch seems to have broken down into a comparison of his stats this year to past years. I think that misses the point. Branch was the one true wideout on the field most of the time. The problem is he is simply not a threat to opposing defenses. He is not any sort of deep threat and he is not a threat after the catch. He gets some YAC, but as soon as there is about to be contact he folds and just goes down without even getting hit most of he time. He almost never fights for extra yards. He really puts no pressure on the opposing defense and I submit that no team game plans to stop Branch. In fact, with Gronk, Welker and Hernandez on the field teams would like Brady to go to Branch over the other three.

With a wideout, it is essential that he force the other team to defend the whole field. Branch does not do that.

 

[Nunchucks]

This question about Deion Branch seems to have broken down into a comparison of his stats this year to past years. I think that misses the point. Branch was the one true wideout on the field most of the time. The problem is he is simply not a threat to opposing defenses. He is not any sort of deep threat and he is not a threat after the catch. He gets some YAC, but as soon as there is about to be contact he folds and just goes down without even getting hit most of he time. He almost never fights for extra yards. He really puts no pressure on the opposing defense and I submit that no team game plans to stop Branch. In fact, with Gronk, Welker and Hernandez on the field teams would like Brady to go to Branch over the other three.

With a wideout, it is essential that he force the other team to defend the whole field. Branch does not do that.

I agree. Imagine having a WR on the field that teams have to worry about. Branch is on the field almost every play...when you guys are comparing him to 3rd and 4th WRs and touting his stats, you are forgetting that those other WRs play very few snaps compared to Branch.

You get a guy that is dangerous on the outside and then defenses really have to cover everything.

 

[PatsFan2]

You really don't understand.
David Givens and Deion Branch learned it because that's the only system they knew once they got here.

Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell had to have Brady, literally, show them how he wanted the routes run before they got it.

Randy Moss was able to learn it because he has an exceptional football intelligence.

Your point is that you don't understand that there are very limited things that the Pats can do in terms of evaluating players in regards to film study, ready defenses, and having players make adjustments based on those reads and have those reads be the same as Tom Brady's reads.

Other teams don't run a system as complex as the Patriots. On other teams, the play is sent in and the receivers know they have to run a set route. Any adjustments will be made via an audible by the QB after he's read the defense. Adjustments typically aren't done by the WR reading the defense other than cutting a route short.

Well it would be to the Patriots benefit to make their Offense a little more vanilla if they expect Dratees or FA WR's to learn it. The way it is now seems like Detriment because they have had more Misses than Hits!

 

[PatsFan2]

This question about Deion Branch seems to have broken down into a comparison of his stats this year to past years. I think that misses the point. Branch was the one true wideout on the field most of the time. The problem is he is simply not a threat to opposing defenses. He is not any sort of deep threat and he is not a threat after the catch. He gets some YAC, but as soon as there is about to be contact he folds and just goes down without even getting hit most of he time. He almost never fights for extra yards. He really puts no pressure on the opposing defense and I submit that no team game plans to stop Branch. In fact, with Gronk, Welker and Hernandez on the field teams would like Brady to go to Branch over the other three.

With a wideout, it is essential that he force the other team to defend the whole field. Branch does not do that.

Exactly Branch is pretty useless as a Starter and he doesn't command a double Team...and if i was the other Teams DC i would be tempted to put my Fastest LB on him and use my CB for others like Doubling other Options not named Deion Branch.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well it would be to the Patriots benefit to make their Offense a little more vanilla if they expect Dratees or FA WR's to learn it. The way it is now seems like Detriment because they have had more Misses than Hits!

This offense has been rated 1/6/1/3 under Brady, from 2007-present. The team is 53-11 in that time period. It would be folly to dumb it down when it's still clear that players can adjust to it.

 

[PatsFan2]

This offense has been rated 1/6/1/3 under Brady, from 2007-present. The team is 53-11 in that time period. It would be folly to dumb it down when it's still clear that players can adjust to it.

Well we will just have to agree to dissagree...but i will say this the Patriots haven't developed a young WR' since Branch/Givens many moons agao. And it's not because of a lack of trying see Bethel Johnson - Chad Jackson - Taylor Price. I will go on record and say I will be Shocked if Branch is resigned knowing WR is pretty strong in FA and the Draft and wouldn't be surpised to see Two WR's in here via either avenue. The Offense will Struggle against good Defense if they don't get a legitimate outside threat.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well we will just have to agree to dissagree...but i will say this the Patriots haven't developed a young WR' since Branch/Givens many moons agao. And it's not because of a lack of trying see Bethel Johnson - Chad Jackson - Taylor Price. I will go on record and say I will be Shocked if Branch is resigned knowing WR is pretty strong in FA and the Draft and wouldn't be surpised to see Two WR's in here via either avenue. The Offense will Struggle against good Defense if they don't get a legitimate outside threat.

1.) Name one WR the Patriots drafted and failed with that went on to real success in the NFL.

2.) Name a few veteran WRs that the Patriots signed as FAs or traded for and failed with that went on to have real success in the NFL, post-Patriots.

 

[PatsFan2]

1.) Name one WR the Patriots drafted and failed with that went on to real success in the NFL.

2.) Name a few veteran WRs that the Patriots signed as FAs or traded for and failed with that went on to have real success in the NFL, post-Patriots.

I don't think my cloing argument warrants any questions but i will play.

1 = None But jury might still be out on Taylor Price never say never. Also David Givens had a unfortuante injury after cashing in with Tennessee.

2 = David Patten with the Saints: and Jabar Gaffney with the Skins.