Criticizing the 2015 Secondary is Overdone

[FourierSeries]

Statistically, it has been shown that "defense does not win championships." Especially in today's NFL, an elite defense is not required to win.

We'll be fine.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

01 ~ Spending heavily on the Secondary is like spending heavily on the Tail, not the Dog.

02 ~ Mad Bill chose wisely.

03 ~ That doesn't mean that there won't be Consequences. Of course there will be Consequences.

04 ~ The Secondary is shaky, whatever Fans may wish to believe.

05 ~ Mad Bill saw an Opportunity to rent Revis for a Year at a Discount, and he seized it.

06 ~ That...was Brilliant. And it helped win us a Championship.

07 ~ But to overplay that Hand...could've and probably would've been Disastrous.

08 ~ Mad Bill appears to be moving forward with a focus on investing in the Front 6 or 7.

With you up to here, and depending whether italics or capitalization are more important, I might agree here...

09

~ That is considerably Wise. He is investing not in the Tail, but in the Dog.

Giving up another big play or two per game can be the difference between a top 5 D (scoring) and a middle-of the pack or lower D.

Agree that given the economic nature of such questions, he may well have been considerably Wise, particularly in a multi-season analysis.

Disagree as to whether the jury is in. What is certain is that BB had to Make Choices, and I only italicized, bolded, and capitalized haphazardly to keep up with the Joneses. He also has a History of making Wise Choices.

This does not, however, mean that this particular direction will result in an optimal effect. We are in a period not of certain success, but of forced uncertainty. BB accepted and embraced uncertainty in the secondary, and aggressively let go of guys not named Revis in addition to Revis.

10

~ Don't worry about the Secondary.

If this Front 6 or 7 reaches its enormous Potential, our Foes are going to be so relentlessly battered and beaten and so rushed for Time that our Grannies could cover Greasy Chickens out there!!

I am very worried about the secondary. I am also very curious about the level of attacking front 7 that might be necessary (or not) to cover the deficiencies that might emerge in the secondary.

::Shrug:: nothing's certain, especially not the secondary. It's just as wrong right now to say "we'll be fine" as it is to say "game over man!"

I would love if the 2015 defense gelled to be a stifling juggernaut. In fact BB might even see in Collins a game-changing talent (I don't dare say "like LT" but I might say "like Willy McGinest.") Put that together with the guys healing up in the front and the new crop, and there's some "stealth" potential for "WTF happened to the Patriots? They are vicious this year!"

Of course that would depend on replacing a "bend but don't break" philosophy with an approach of mooting the point of the long ball through an attacking D.

It's exactly the kind of sea change that BB would never undertake until he does.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

If there were no questions going into training camp, it would be a bit boring.

There isn't a single team in the NFL that goes into training camp or the season without a question mark here or there. That's the result of a salary cap, where its impossible to keep hall of famers at every single position on your roster, so you HAVE to rely on young rookies that you draft to fill in and contribute.

The panic is because Revis is gone, plain and simple. People are taking the stance of Revis Gone = Worst secondary in the league. This secondary still has a lot of talent and potential, a heck of a lot more than in 2011 when they were a Welker drop away from winning another Super Bowl..

Its also just the tendency of Boston sports fans, they hyper focus on the negatives and ignore the positives.. a mentality that the Felgers of the world get rich off of.

The front 7 is going to be amazingly fun to watch this year, and with McCourty roaming center field, even if the CBs we have are average at best, this defense will be a good one and will be playing with a lead more often than not.

Plenty to be excited about.. for a team that just won a SB, its in pretty darn good shape as far as talent both young and old. They definitely have a legitimate chance at repeating, but like every season that will require some degree of luck in the injury department and some ball bounces

 

[JarOfMayo51]

The 2015 Secondary sucks. Discuss.

***

Seriously, though...

I believe that Mad Bill was actually quite Wise to cut Revis & Browner loose: Retaining Revis would've crippled us, what with The Infernal Salary Cap, and Browner's no good without Revis.

But let's not kid ourselves.

Yup.. people don't want to believe it and instead would like to buy into the "Cap is Crap" that Felger spews around, which is about as idiotic as it gets..

There is a salary cap. It is a real thing and you HAVE to manage it or it will ruin you ALA the Saints and several other teams over the years. There has been a lot of money flying around lately and will continue to do so while they lock up their young guys long term.. having Revis on the roster at the money he commanded would have meant letting 2-3 of our young superstars go out the door, which is not worth it.

 

[mgteich]

1) Yes, Belichick chose Fletcher and McClain over Dennard and Arrington. That fact does not make Fletcher and McClain solid starters. These players had bad years last year and were mis-used. Those facts don't make them stars for the patriots.

2) Butler has flashed as a backup. Before the Revis situation was resolved, many here thought that he might not make the 53. Butler is good developmental player to have on the 53. That does NOT make him an adequate starter in 2015 or even in 2016.

3) Belichick likely has faith in Ryan as a starter in a zone defense. This is the one thing that seems to make sense.

4) starter - Ryan
starter/backup - Fletcher, Butler
nickel - McClain
5th corner - someone who will likely not have any defensive reps unless there are two injuries
This may not be the worst talent among the playoff teams. It is certainly close.

BOTTOM LINE
We have among the worst set of corners among playoff teams. This group is an extreme weakness in a critical area of the defense.

Of course, we always have weaknesses. With the cap, and with Belichick's strategy of stability over time, that will always be the case. Belichick has a challenge. He needs to develop a new defense for the patriots which makes up for weaknesses at the two most important positions on the defense.

Will Belichick succeed? Sure. He always does. But, unless we simply want to stop analysis and just say that the patriots are the SB winner because we have Belichick and Brady, we should face some reality. The corners are weak.

 

[Off The Grid]

Butler is 5-11, Grid.

Butler is 5096, Rob.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

I'm not going to criticize something that I can't measure, but after the huge shakeup of not being able to sign Revis I feel the secondary is questionable at this point and would be lying if I said I wasn't concerned about it.

So lets wave a magic wand and suddenly Revis is here under his Jets deal. Now sme other area of the team is going to become questionable.

There is no such thing as not having some question marks on your roster in today's NFL, its just not possible unless you have the luckiest consecutive drafts in a row and score pro-bowl talent with every single pick... and even then, you won't be able to keep all of that talent together on the roster as their rookie deals run out, so you're talking an incredible stroke of luck that would need to be capitalized on in a very, very short window of time.

When you have a great front 7 that can get after the QB, you can get away with not having a Revis in your secondary and still be effective. As another poster mentioned, the 49ers and Panthers had some of the better defenses over the course of quite a few years and that was with average CBs and Safeties... they got away with it because they had talented front 7s

 

[Off The Grid]

Statistically, it has been shown that "defense does not win championships."

Tell that Sewage to the 2013 Broncos.

Half the Players on every Snap are Defenders, Bub.

Do the Math.

 

[Off The Grid]

Disagree as to whether the jury is in.

Love ya, Bro, and it was an excellent Post, per usual...but who the phuck said that the Jury was in??

Please do me the Courtesy of not inferring that which I have not said.

I do believe that I employed the word "IF" quite prominently.

 

[fair catch fryar]

So lets wave a magic wand and suddenly Revis is here under his Jets deal. Now sme other area of the team is going to become questionable.

There is no such thing as not having some question marks on your roster in today's NFL, its just not possible unless you have the luckiest consecutive drafts in a row and score pro-bowl talent with every single pick... and even then, you won't be able to keep all of that talent together on the roster as their rookie deals run out, so you're talking an incredible stroke of luck that would need to be capitalized on in a very, very short window of time.

When you have a great front 7 that can get after the QB, you can get away with not having a Revis in your secondary and still be effective. As another poster mentioned, the 49ers and Panthers had some of the better defenses over the course of quite a few years and that was with average CBs and Safeties... they got away with it because they had talented front 7s

Too be blunt...no sh!t. You wasted your whole reply telling me something I already know. Where in my post did I criticize not resigning Revis? I referred to it and the shakeup of the secondary that ensued. I've moved on. My whole post was in response to the thread about "criticizing" the upcoming season's secondary. I'm well aware of the potential in the front seven, but there is no body of evidence to help me gauge the potential for this year and I, like many others around here are still concerned about it this year. You would have to be an idiot not to be. I'm pretty sure BB probably has a few concerns himself, but also knows he did the best with what he had. I can live with that, but I'm still allowed to "question" their potential if that's alright with you.

 

[Off The Grid]

2015 looks like a Transition Year to me ~ which for us is probably 12-4 or 11-5 and a Divisional.

And with a Break or three....??? In any case: We should once again be In The Thick'f It.

The Secondary should take a step or three back.

The Front 6 or 7 should improve.

2016 looks very Promising.

 

[Off The Grid]

Agree that given the economic nature of such questions, he may well have been considerably Wise, particularly in a multi-season analysis.

Agree.

Multi Season ~ I simplify it to "Strategic" ~ Thinking is the only kind to which I impart substantial Value.

Tactical Thinking is nice, but if you're a Tactical Idiot but a Strategic Genius, the Championships will pour in.

And I maintain that the Secondary is far more dependent on the Front 6 or 7 than the other way around.

If you Take Care Of Business Up Front, our Grannies can man the Secondary.

But if Grannies are running the Front 6 or 7, it doesn't matter if 4 or 5 Revises are manning the Secondary.

We'll still give up 100 Points a Game.

01 ~ Jacking up the Secondary is Reactionary, Tactical, and Weak.

02 ~ Jacking up the Front 6 or 7 is Seizing The Initiative, Strategic, and Strong.

And now I must sleep.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Too be blunt...no sh!t. You wasted your whole reply telling me something I already know. Where in my post did I criticize not resigning Revis? I referred to it and the shakeup of the secondary that ensued. I've moved on. My whole post was in response to the thread about "criticizing" the upcoming season's secondary. I'm well aware of the potential in the front seven, but there is no body of evidence to help me gauge the potential for this year and I, like many others around here are still concerned about it this year. You would have to be an idiot not to be. I'm pretty sure BB probably has a few concerns himself, but also knows he did the best with what he had. I can live with that, but I'm still allowed to "question" their potential if that's alright with you.

Wow what crawled up your ass, such hostility!

Have a beer or something and chill the **** out.. this board is becoming ridiculous

People are such assholes all the time now around here

 

[RobertWeathers]

Butler is 5096, Rob.

Going by this

http://www.nfl.com/player/malcolmbutler/2550613/profile

 

[patsfanincleveland]

No, it isn't. Let me explain:

Butler - Unproven on the outside, solid in the slot.
Fletcher - Trash.
Logan Ryan - Average in zone, below average in man.
McClain - JAG
Roberts - Unproven.

McCourty at safety will cover up for a good amount of it but that doesn't mean that the corner situation is a solid one. The Patriots either have one of the most unknown CB stables in the NFL or one of the worst ones depending on which way you look at it.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

1) Yes, Belichick chose Fletcher and McClain over Dennard and Arrington. That fact does not make Fletcher and McClain solid starters. These players had bad years last year and were mis-used. Those facts don't make them stars for the patriots.

2) Butler has flashed as a backup. Before the Revis situation was resolved, many here thought that he might not make the 53. Butler is good developmental player to have on the 53. That does NOT make him an adequate starter in 2015 or even in 2016.

3) Belichick likely has faith in Ryan as a starter in a zone defense. This is the one thing that seems to make sense.

4) starter - Ryan
starter/backup - Fletcher, Butler
nickel - McClain
5th corner - someone who will likely not have any defensive reps unless there are two injuries
This may not be the worst talent among the playoff teams. It is certainly close.

BOTTOM LINE
We have among the worst set of corners among playoff teams. This group is an extreme weakness in a critical area of the defense.

Of course, we always have weaknesses. With the cap, and with Belichick's strategy of stability over time, that will always be the case. Belichick has a challenge. He needs to develop a new defense for the patriots which makes up for weaknesses at the two most important positions on the defense.

Will Belichick succeed? Sure. He always does. But, unless we simply want to stop analysis and just say that the patriots are the SB winner because we have Belichick and Brady, we should face some reality. The corners are weak.

 

[Ross12]

I just want to point out that there have been numerous defenses over the last few years who were considered "great", and many have had relatively untalented secondaries that were covered up by very good front 7s. The Panthers, 49ers or Lions of recent years come to mind.

My point being, if you have a great front 7 and weak in the secondary, you might still be OK. If you are weak in the front 7 but strong in the secondary, you're probably not OK. This team is potentially strong up front, likely strong in the middle, likely poor to average at CB, but probably strong at safety. As a whole, this defense should remain fine, especially with TB12 manning the other side of the ball.

 

[patfanken]

Going by this

http://www.nfl.com/player/malcolmbutler/2550613/profile

While I would love to think that Butler is 5'11, and be might very well be. However the source you used to validate your opinion is the same one that listed Vince Wilfolk at 325 for the last decade.

 

[RobertWeathers]

While I would love to think that Butler is 5'11, and be might very well be. However the source you used to validate your opinion is the same one that listed Vince Wilfolk at 325 for the last decade.

Every site I hit has him at 5-11. I have yet to see 5-9

Vince at 325 was a joke no question.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Love ya, Bro, and it was an excellent Post, per usual...but who the phuck said that the Jury was in??

Please do me the Courtesy of not inferring that which I have not said.

I do believe that I employed the word "IF" quite prominently.

My apologies - I blame myself for disregarding said IF. But it provided, in this case, a wonderful straw-man from which I could continue what appears to be a heated agreement.

Edit: I must protest that in this case, "If" was neither all caps nor italicized. The OTG Manual of Style would frown on this lack of emphasis for such an important word