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Concepts some posters could benefit from learning


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Taking percentages of field goals to judge a kicker is a joke. There are probably hundreds of kickers who could make an acceptable amount of kicks when they don't matter.

Gost hasn't had to make many important ones and it has nothing to do with his ability.

You keep a kicker to make the handful of kicks that decide big games.

If you don't have a kicker you have great confidence in, other factors loom larger.

Indianapolis, and then Dallas, seemed to have a problem with the 'most accurate kicker in history' for some strange reason...
 
The best team always wins. How do I know? Circular logic.

That's clearly untrue... it a very neanderthal approach to sports. "I beat you up... ugh... I am gooder."

I disagree that the definition some others have offered for "best team" is "most talented team". Because talent is part of the equation, coaching and execution are additional parts which shouldn't be denied. But at some point using season-long performance you can usually make an assessment of who is truly better.

You would be closer to say "the best team *that day* always wins". Because that at least accounts for game-to-game variances in performance. But it still falls short, because when a game is close small unpredictable events can make the difference. In most close games you can change the outcome by changing the result of a very small number of plays... a fumble, a drop rather than an INT, a completion rather than a drop... etc.
 
I watch sports to be entertained, not to exert my brain power...yikes

And by extension, the same apparently applies to posting here.
 
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That's clearly untrue... it a very neanderthal approach to sports. "I beat you up... ugh... I am gooder."

I disagree that the definition some others have offered for "best team" is "most talented team". Because talent is part of the equation, coaching and execution are additional parts which shouldn't be denied. But at some point using season-long performance you can usually make an assessment of who is truly better.

You would be closer to say "the best team *that day* always wins". Because that at least accounts for game-to-game variances in performance. But it still falls short, because when a game is close small unpredictable events can make the difference. In most close games you can change the outcome by changing the result of a very small number of plays... a fumble, a drop rather than an INT, a completion rather than a drop... etc.

Barring external forces (bad officiating, for example), the team that doesn't make that fumble your talking about IS the better team that day. Your "that day" is important, because it's the reason that using a static metric to measure variables over time doesn't work with everything people attempt to use it for. You can't just multiple the odds to get the chance the Patriots will go undefeated, and you can't just make a claim that 'clutch' numbers are simply a product of a limited pool, which would even out over time. There are too many variables that arise as each situation develops to ever get a truly accurate assessment until you look back in hindsight.
 
In most close games you can change the outcome by changing the result of a very small number of plays... a fumble, a drop rather than an INT, a completion rather than a drop... etc.

Ever notice how those plays always seem to go the Pats way? (like Troy Brown vs the Chargers last year)

I say that is coaching and mental focus which can also be attributed to BB and his selection of certain players.
 
What lessons can we learn from baseball and use to analyze and predict football? Lots.

The huge flaw in many of your statements, something FootballOutsiders agrees with: football has a much lower sample size than baseball. And lower sample size lowers the value of statistical analysis dramatically. For baseball 162 games is still not enough for some analysis, and 16 games in football is even less.

Statistical analysis assumes that you have enough data that the factors you aren't interested in cancel out. But that doesn't happen in small sample sizes like in football, and that makes many of your statements less reliable.

in football, what does this mean? Well, read the Adam Vinatieri Mr. Clutch thread. my basic opinion is that AV makes the frozen ball kick vs the Titans or the blizzard kick vs the Raiders AT MOST 50% of the time.

Suddenly statistics goes out the window and your opinion is all that matters? The truth is, you have no reliable basis for assigning a 50% probability to those kicks. So your conclusion does not follow.

given a large enough sample size, things tend to even out, which is what baseball analysis has taught us, and what AV is beginning to show.

No. It would be just as accurate to say "If a great player plays long enough for his skills to erode, he will not be as great."

The flaw in statistical analysis as a mantra is that it simply can't take all factors into account. It is certainly a good starting point, it can provide valuable insights, but it has its limitations.
 
The huge flaw in many of your statements, something FootballOutsiders agrees with: football has a much lower sample size than baseball. And lower sample size lowers the value of statistical analysis dramatically. For baseball 162 games is still not enough for some analysis, and 16 games in football is even less.

Statistical analysis assumes that you have enough data that the factors you aren't interested in cancel out. But that doesn't happen in small sample sizes like in football, and that makes many of your statements less reliable.



Suddenly statistics goes out the window and your opinion is all that matters? The truth is, you have no reliable basis for assigning a 50% probability to those kicks. So your conclusion does not follow.



No. It would be just as accurate to say "If a great player plays long enough for his skills to erode, he will not be as great."

The flaw in statistical analysis as a mantra is that it simply can't take all factors into account. It is certainly a good starting point, it can provide valuable insights, but it has its limitations.

I get the feeling makewayhomo just bought a book on sabermetrics and decided to come in here and amaze us all with his intellectual superiority. Only problem is he didn't read the book.

Nice concise points.
 
That's clearly untrue... it a very neanderthal approach to sports. "I beat you up... ugh... I am gooder."

Certainly works in Boxing.

You are wrong and I will explain. There was a team that was never, I repeat never considered the most talented team by writers and other "experts".

There was Philadelphia, St. Louis, L.A. etc.

Yet they won when it counted an incredible percentage of the time.

Someone once gave your side of the argument to a Mr. William Felton Russell, maybe it was the last year when they finished 4th in a 6 team league, barely making the playoffs (they won it all, of course).

How did you manage it when you were clearly not the best team? He disagreed, saying they were definitely the best. The writer continued with the talent of the sixers, the lakers with West, Baylor and Chamberlain, but Russell cut him off with this simple phrase....


That's why they keep score.:cool:
 
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Everybody misses clutch shots. That's not the point.

I hate statistics, but I just happen to be in the middle of a graduate research course.

I'm begging for a qualified statistician out there to tell me the odds this is totally by chance (what's known as the null hypothesis.

Carl Yastrzemski carried the 1967 Red Sox after Conigliaro went down.

The last weekend of the season the Red Sox needed two win both games against the Twins to have a chance at the pennant.

What were the odds our clutch leader could hit 7-8 in those two games for a .875 average?

In a twenty three year career, he hit over .300 six times. Career average was .285. Average in 1967 was .326.

Put it on a curve, standard deviations, whatever you want.

Binomial distribution. Exactly 7 successes in 8 tries. Say the probability of success was s, where s is 1/(square root of 10), a figure a little bit above .300. Probability = 8*s^7(1-s), which is somewhere around .15%. Changing the question to "... at least 7 successes" wouldn't affect the outcome much.

However, that's not the right sample to analyze. My only personal memory of Yastrzemski in a clutch situation is a weak pop-up to end a one-game playoff in 1978. At a minimum, you'd need to look at his post-season games as well as his heat-of-the-pennant-race games, and look at his overall batting average in those. I think you'd probably find it to be a LOT below .875, and indeed well below .400 ...

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/playerpost.php?p=yastrca01&ps=ws has his World Series percentage: .352.

Overall postseason: .369. Even better. http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/yastrca01.shtml

And raise that very slightly for the Bucky Dent game, his game-ending popout notwithstanding: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=197810020BOS

Better than his regular-season batting, actually. But not "unstoppably clutch" either, of course. No batter is.
 
The huge flaw in many of your statements, something FootballOutsiders agrees with: football has a much lower sample size than baseball. And lower sample size lowers the value of statistical analysis dramatically. For baseball 162 games is still not enough for some analysis, and 16 games in football is even less.

Statistical analysis assumes that you have enough data that the factors you aren't interested in cancel out. But that doesn't happen in small sample sizes like in football, and that makes many of your statements less reliable.

Not exactly . from FO:
"Football statistics can't be analyzed in the same way baseball statistics are. After all, there are only 16 games in a season. Baseball has ten times more, and even the NBA offers five times more. The more games, the more events to analyze, and the more events to analyze, the more statistical significance.

That is true, but the trick is to consider each play in an NFL game as a separate event. For example, Eli Manning played only 16 games in 2005, but in those 16 games he had 586 passing plays (including sacks) and 29 rushing plays (including scrambles) for a total of 615 events. Manny Ramirez in 2005 played in 152 games and had 650 plate appearances. For the most part, a quarterback who plays a full season will have almost the same number of plays as a baseball hitter who plays in most of his team's games.

A running back will have fewer plays than a quarterback, and wide receivers and tight ends will have even fewer. But there should still be enough plays with most starting running backs and receivers to allow for analysis with some significance. As an example, LaDanian Tomlinson ran the ball 339 times in 2005, and was the target of 77 pass targets (including incompletes), for a total of 416 plays. In general, a starting running back will have 375-450 plays over 16 games. Receivers are used a bit less, and therefore their stats are likely not as accurate. In general, starting wide receivers have 75-150 pass targets over a full season."


Suddenly statistics goes out the window and your opinion is all that matters? The truth is, you have no reliable basis for assigning a 50% probability to those kicks. So your conclusion does not follow.

No. It would be just as accurate to say "If a great player plays long enough for his skills to erode, he will not be as great."

in the Hidden Game of Football, there are FG historical FG result by distance, and my guesses were based on that. if you don't think scientists are ever forced to make assumptions, ok, but you're wrong.


The flaw in statistical analysis as a mantra is that it simply can't take all factors into account. It is certainly a good starting point, it can provide valuable insights, but it has its limitations.

agree, it can't get everything right. but it can get an awful lot right, and prove an awful lot of things right or wrong.
 
You can't just multiple the odds to get the chance the Patriots will go undefeated

I already made this offer to another poster. if you think the Pats are better than 50% to go undefeated, let me know, and we'll make a small wager on it
 
Yup. Because they accomplish exactly their utility and nothing else. They show schematic tendencies. He doesn't look for YPCarry in a gameplan, he looks at lineplay and how the back hits the subsequent hole. He doesn't look at YPCatch, he looks at how an offensive cordinator utilizes his recievers in a down/distance situation. To quote BB, "It is what it is".

you should read Chris Gaspers new book, b/c you're wrong about BB and his interest in stats
 
2 World Series 0-2 14 54 11 19 2 0 3 9 8 2 .352 .438 .556 0 0 0 1 1
3 Postseason Series 1-2 17 65 15 24 3 0 4 11 9 3 .369 .447 .600 0 0 0 1 1

My friend, you officially don't know what you're talking about.

You really should take a course in stats or something, because you don't even know the basics.

You might note Yaz also randomly hit for higher than his top career average in World Series and playoffs.

A real statistician could take his mean average (285), his highest ever (326) and compare that to his world series avg. (352) and his playoff average (369) as well as his pennant clinching weekend average (.875) and conclude to an extremely high degree of probability that Yaz was a clutch hitter.

By the way, until a statistician checks in, I'm sure this degree of probability is much much higher than the average "proved" hypothesis.

Ray, I don't understand this post and your critique of mine.

WRT Yaz, my response is: sample size. go look at the # of regular season games he played, then go look at the # of playoff and WS games you are comparing it to.
 
also..the numbers dont show if Brady had receivers open and he missed them...or those numbers dont show passes dropped....or passes thrown away. so just looking at Brady's stats like that dont really show much.

doesnt show an interception and the end of a half or game that was just thrown up for grabs.
 
That's total BS, unless there's an implied "yet" in the sentence (and if I understood you correctly, there isn't.)
Really, so your telling me that you can take any Joe Scmoe off the street and calculate whether or not his mental fortitude and experience can be measured. Take away the fact that natural athletic ability is a pre-requisite, but everyone has a heart and a mind, and these can not be measured by statistics. It's OK to disagree with me and not call it "BS", but what I'm saying is that some people are able to focus and perform while others "freeze" and choke in certain situations. Two athletes in similar situations are not going to have similar statistics over the same period of time in "clutch" moments.
 
also..the numbers dont show if Brady had receivers open and he missed them...or those numbers dont show passes dropped....or passes thrown away. so just looking at Brady's stats like that dont really show much.

doesnt show an interception and the end of a half or game that was just thrown up for grabs.

actually, DVOA and DPAR at least partially take things like this into account. they aren't perfect as individual stats, but they are better than traditional stats.

(as unit/team stats, they are much better)
 
Two athletes in similar situations are not going to have similar statistics over the same period of time in "clutch" moments.

baseball stats tend to to disagree with you. read the article I linked to from espn in my OP.

clutch exists, but not to near the degree that people think.
 
14 pages of math? I hate math. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I could give a crap what advanced algorithims are going to tell me about clutch vs non clutch. I know that I love having #12 as my QB and I loved having #4 as our kicker.

I've never had a bad feeling with them on the field (except watching Adam on the field with the Colts which makes me want to throw up) and they both brought a lot of happiness to this city and it's fans. Is it really necessary to try and negate all of those feelings because statistically they can't be clutch?
 
baseball stats tend to to disagree with you. read the article I linked to from espn in my OP.

clutch exists, but not to near the degree that people think.
So why haven't the Yankees been able to perform in "clutch" situations with all of their "statistically superior" talent in recent years??
 
14 pages of math? I hate math. Maybe I'm in the minority here but I could give a crap what advanced algorithims are going to tell me about clutch vs non clutch. I know that I love having #12 as my QB and I loved having #4 as our kicker.

I've never had a bad feeling with them on the field (except watching Adam on the field with the Colts which makes me want to throw up) and they both brought a lot of happiness to this city and it's fans. Is it really necessary to try and negate all of those feelings because statistically they can't be clutch?

Tommy,

What makes me happy is winning. if advanced analysis can help my team win, then I'm all for it.

this isn't about taking away credit, it's about using information to make the best decisions to help the team win
 
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