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Concepts some posters could benefit from learning


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I'm not sure what you're saying here. my point is that performance analysis in all sports has improved lately. this argument isn't just about "clutch" it's about the ability to analyze information, come to conclusions, and improve your team.

another example, so we can get off of "clutch".

the Pats consistently go on 4th down more than any other team. this isn't by accident or b/c they have been a particularly awesome running team - it's b/c studies were done to support the idea that value could be gained by "gambling" more on 4th down, and the Pats listened.

Of course statistical analysis has improved. We didn't have personal computers or the internet 20 years ago. My point to you was smart personnel people still win all the time. Crappy teams have access to the same statistical methods, but they don't interpret them correctly or do the million little things smart organizations do.

As I said, unless you have a PHD in research methods, I don't think you're teaching me about analyzing information and coming to conclusions.

I'm pretty sure football people have been on top of this for years. You can record data and describe, evaluate or interpret it with a pencil and paper.

What is new here? Nothing.
 
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2. FT shooting in basketball is the closest thing to an exception I can think of. Placekicking in football is a very partial exception at best, because the sample size is so small and conditions are more variable (notably, distance, but also the interplay between distance, weather, and field conditions).
.

here is an article that might interest you

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/sports/football/12score.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

it basically shows that there was very little year to year correlation in fg success rate among NFL kickers - the variance is basically huge. and that kickoff distance should be given more weight in judging kickers (which I think BB already knows)

the ideal strategy is probably to find a guy who can kick a ball really far and just sign him for a long time
 
Of course statistical analysis has improved. We didn't have personal computers or the internet 20 years ago. My point to you was smart personnel people still win all the time. Crappy teams have access to the same statistical methods, but they don't interpret them correctly or do the million little things smart organizations do.

As I said, unless you have a PHD in research methods, I don't think you're teaching me about analyzing information and coming to conclusions.

I'm pretty sure football people have been on top of this for years. You can record data and describe, evaluate or interpret it with a pencil and paper.

What is new here? Nothing.

i think we're largely agreeing with each other
 
Can I still refer to Derek Jeter as "Captain Clutch"?

He's Captain Intangibles. Not only is he clutch, he's a great leader, a brilliant strategist, and his calm eyes sooth those around him. You're selling him short.
 
here is an article that might interest you

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/sports/football/12score.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

it basically shows that there was very little year to year correlation in fg success rate among NFL kickers - the variance is basically huge. and that kickoff distance should be given more weight in judging kickers (which I think BB already knows)

the ideal strategy is probably to find a guy who can kick a ball really far and just sign him for a long time

Let's disagree, then. Kickoffs are important, yet teams have burned a roster spot keeping a kicker just for kickoffs and one just for field goals.

Why would they do that, are they stupid? I don't think the colts are stupid and they did it recently, maybe the year before AV (somebody correct if I'm mistaken).

You say statistics show very little year to year success rates correlation.

Say one kicker missed two kicks in September and mad one in the playoff and the Super Bowl of the same length.

Statistically a kicker who missed two post season but made 2 in September grades out the same, they made the same amount for exactly the same yardage.

One won the Super Bowl, one didn't.

Nothing wrong with your statistics. Does your analysis have any relevance that can be used by a football team, though? Seems your research question or hypotheses is nor relevant to what wins championships.
 
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Yeah that guy Larry Bird is bound to miss a clutch shot pretty soon. LOL!!

As Bill Simmons frequently points out, Bird DID miss clutch shots.
 
The bottom line is that there is no scientific way to measure a person's ability to perform under pressure in any line of work.

That's total BS, unless there's an implied "yet" in the sentence (and if I understood you correctly, there isn't.)
 
Let's disagree, then. Kickoffs are important, yet teams have burned a roster spot keeping a kicker just for kickoffs and one just for field goals.

Why would they do that, are they stupid? I don't think the colts are stupid and they did it recently, maybe the year before AV (somebody correct if I'm mistaken).

yes, that's dumb. since there is no correlation for fg accuracy year to year, the team was operating under the false assumption that their "fg kicker" would continue to be accurate for that year. what they should have done was find a Gostkowksi type who could do both. burning the roster spot and the cap money for 2 guys to do 1 job is dumb.


Say one kicker missed two kicks in September and mad one in the playoff and the Super Bowl of the same length.

Statistically a kicker who missed two post season but made 2 in September grades out the same, they made the same amount for exactly the same yardage.

One won the Super Bowl, one didn't.

thats true, but this is just the result of variance - ie something that nobody can predict or value, therefore it's worth little

Nothing wrong with your statistics. Does your analysis have any relevance that can be used by a football team, though? Seems your research question or hypotheses is nor relevant to what wins championships.

see my Gost example above. yes.
 
The best team always wins. How do I know? Circular logic.

There is only one method of determining the best team, that is the team left after all games have been played.

Statistics are only a by-product. The only purpose for every game, playoff and Super bowl is to determine the best team, therefore the team remaining is, by definition, the best.

In some senses of "best", you're absolutely right. As a fan, I even agree those are the most important senses.

But it's also legitimate to use the word differently and say the opposite. For example, I used to be a stock analyst. It is perfectly reasonable to judge analysts on the basis of who is the "best" stock picker, and leave all other measures of merit aside. Well, I can assure you that the best stock picker will not be the most successful stock picker each and every one of the 250 or so days per year the market is open. Does that mean he's not the "best" on that particular day?

In that scenario, the meanings of "best" in which the "best" is NOT always the immediate winner look more reasonable ...
 
although I believe I remember seeing a study where there was only one major league baseball player ever that had better "numbers" in "clutch" situations than his average in all situations.

Think about it. That would actually be a VERY odd result for a study to have.
 
Sometimes a coach has to rely on intangeables to make personel decisions. It's these intangeables that render math not as useful as I perceive you are suggesting.

Grady Little and Pedro Martinez say hello.
 
I studied stats 3 1/2 decades ago at B.U.---never thought that years and years later I would get flame broiled by outraged statisticians...hey,you want to spend the time breaking down every single stat of every single game in every single situation, all power to you...I'm gonna go crack a beer.

Chilling out is good. I TAUGHT statistics at Suffolk University 30 years ago and, honestly, don't recall many of the details.

But even so, the general principles are worth remembering.
 
In some senses of "best", you're absolutely right. As a fan, I even agree those are the most important senses.

But it's also legitimate to use the word differently and say the opposite. For example, I used to be a stock analyst. It is perfectly reasonable to judge analysts on the basis of who is the "best" stock picker, and leave all other measures of merit aside. Well, I can assure you that the best stock picker will not be the most successful stock picker each and every one of the 250 or so days per year the market is open. Does that mean he's not the "best" on that particular day?

In that scenario, the meanings of "best" in which the "best" is NOT always the immediate winner look more reasonable ...


good point here. as a fan, it doesn't matter that the Rams were better than the Patriots in 2001. we won, woo-hoo!

however, as a GM, it's my job to judge players/teams and figure out which performances are likely to be repeated and which ones aren't, and cut bait/make moves where needed.
 
Like Ray Clay said, a good GM or coach always knows which player to go to at "crunch time"

Surely not "always". At best, "sometimes".

Probabilities and imperfection apply to them too!
 
That's pretty silly. It is easy to manipulate stats to make an argument sound good. But to argue that clutch doesn't exist? Some people simply perform at a higher level under pressure. It's not just dumb luck or 'variance' as you put it. Think Michael Jordan got 'lucky' all those years he won 6 championships or that Ortiz just got extra lucky when the game was on the line? Think that Tiger Wood's inner competitive drive is all a trick of variance, when it is clear he almost NEVER gives up the lead once he is up on Sundays? No I call that competitive drive and yes 'clutchness'.

Variance does litlte to explain the innate human ability to 'raise their game' to another level when it is all on the line. Some humans are simply BETTER at increasing their performance and concentration levels when they 'sense' big situations. Take whatever scientific explanation you will, for example when humans get into highly stressful situations, their endorphine levels pump up which increases their energy and allows them to reach higher performance levels than normally possible. Whatever the reason, humans can raise to another level, and people can see tangible results in highly competitive events like professional sports. You label AV's winning playoff kicks as 'variance', I see it as the skill to concentrate under tremendous pressure.

You cite 'variance' as the reason why the Pats can't go 16-0, and I say to you that is a poor excuse based on a mathematical indulgence that has little bearing to the overall talent level, intelligence, preperation, coaching, and will to win of the 2007 Patriots. Go ahead and join the John Claytons of this world in picking against the Pats perfect season because the odds favor you and you want to make yourself sound smart. But the fact is that there are many more factors in play here than mere odds. Buy into the media's lies and spout your so called stats. If you've SEEN the Patriots play with your own eyes, you would not doubt that this team is truly capable of something special this year.
 
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As Bill Simmons frequently points out, Bird DID miss clutch shots.

Everybody misses clutch shots. That's not the point.

I hate statistics, but I just happen to be in the middle of a graduate research course.

I'm begging for a qualified statistician out there to tell me the odds this is totally by chance (what's known as the null hypothesis.

Carl Yastrzemski carried the 1967 Red Sox after Conigliaro went down.

The last weekend of the season the Red Sox needed two win both games against the Twins to have a chance at the pennant.

What were the odds our clutch leader could hit 7-8 in those two games for a .875 average?

In a twenty three year career, he hit over .300 six times. Career average was .285. Average in 1967 was .326.

Put it on a curve, standard deviations, whatever you want.
 
That's pretty silly. It is easy to manipulate stats to make an argument sound good. But to argue that clutch doesn't exist? Some people simply perform at a higher level under pressure. It's not just dumb luck or 'variance' as you put it. Think Michael Jordan got 'lucky' all those years he won 6 championships or that Ortiz just got extra lucky when the game was on the line? Think that Tiger Wood's inner competitive drive is all a trick of variance, when it is clear he almost NEVER gives up the lead once he is up on Sundays? No I call that competitive drive and yes 'clutchness'.

Variance does litlte to explain the innate human ability to 'raise their game' to another level when it is all on the line. Some humans are simply BETTER at increasing their performance and concentration levels when they 'sense' big situations. Take whatever scientific explanation you will, for example when humans get into highly stressful situations, their endorphine levels pump up which increases their energy and allows them to reach higher performance levels than normally possible. Whatever the reason, humans can raise to another level, and people can see tangible results in highly competitive events like professional sports. You label AV's winning playoff kicks as 'variance', I see it as the skill to concentrate under tremendous pressure.

You cite 'variance' as the reason why the Pats can't go 16-0, and I say to you that is a poor excuse based on a mathematical indulgence that has little bearing to the overall talent level, intelligence, preperation, coaching, and will to win of the 2007 Patriots. Go ahead and join the John Claytons of this world in picking against the Pats perfect season because the odds favor you and you want to make yourself sound smart. But the fact is that there are many more factors in play here than mere odds. Buy into the media's lies and spout your so called stats. If you've SEEN the Patriots play with your own eyes, you would not doubt that this team is truly capable of something special this year.

would you care to make a wager on the Patriots going 16-0?

$50?

they go 16-0 I pay you $50, otherwise you pay me
 
good point here. as a fan, it doesn't matter that the Rams were better than the Patriots in 2001. we won, woo-hoo!

however, as a GM, it's my job to judge players/teams and figure out which performances are likely to be repeated and which ones aren't, and cut bait/make moves where needed.

Don't say it. The patriots were better by the only relevant measure.:D

If you know statistics, I want to see how far from random my Yastrzemski example is. I'm in a Library research course, so I don't have to crunch the actual numbers, but I'd love to see a statistician tackle this one.
 
Surely not "always". At best, "sometimes".

Probabilities and imperfection apply to them too!

A good coach that's lucky enough to have a clutch player, some teams just suck.

Can you do statistics Fencer? I'd love somebody to quantify the deviation from random chance in Yaz's clutch weekend.
 
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