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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Oct 8, 2012.

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  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I thought we might spend some time evaluating the coaching staff that supports Belichick.

    OFFENSE - COORDINATOR
    The only issue I have is not understanding what was happening when Edelman was getting so many reps. Otherwise, the overall offense has been awesome. Healthy, this offense is unstoppable.

    OFFENSE - POSITIONS COACHES
    Obviously, these guys have been doing a fine job: OL, TE, WR, and RB coaches.

    DEFENSE - COORDINATOR
    Personally, I would prefer more disguising of defenses. Otherwise, the progress has been amazing. We should realize that we are in a new defense with new key players (Jones, Hightower, Smith and Gregory) and some players in new roles (Ninkovich and Cunningham). Overall, this defense could be a top 5 defense by year's, certainly top 10. It remains to be seen whether we will good enough to close out top offenses late in the game.

    DEFENSE - FRONT SEVEN
    The coaches have done an extraordinary job address our issues in run defense, as well as adapting to the new schemes quickly. Incorporating rookies immediately is quite impressive. The improvement is the use of Cunningham has been impressive. Finally, moving Ninkovich to De is an interesting experiment that is working. It seems clear that this is the best options, given our personnel.

    I don't like not having better backups that White. However, overall the front seven has been outstanding in their run defense. It remains to be seen whether the linebackers can provide much help in pass defense. The new experiment seems to be keeping Spikes in more on passing downs; but Spikes is very, very slow.

    DEFENSE - BACKFIELD
    How many top 3 draft choices do we need to use on defensive backfield to make it average? The coaching seems awful when we continually see penalties due to not turning around for the ball. McCourty is OK and Wilson looks like a find (as Chung did in HIS rookie year), but overall, we seen to use lots of choices and bring in who we can, and yet this remains our key weakness year after year after year. At other positions, it takes 1-3 years to rebuild a unit, often using UDFA's and low-level free agents in key roles. I don't know what it will take in the secondary.

    AT SOME POINT, one needs to ask how much of the problem is the coaching of the defensive backs. We can draft another 3 defensive backs next year to upgrade Moore, Arrington and Chung; but it is not clear how much good that will do if we do not improve the coaching.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  2. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady On the Roster

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    #24 Jersey

    We might be seeing some of the best coaching of the BB tenure right now.

    The amount of rookies/new players and just overall youth out of key contributors is fairly astounding.

    Also this is a new scheme on both sides of the ball (or at least large variation on existing schemes)

    Then you look at a game like yesterday and the offense runs 90 something plays and produces the way it did. And the defense does its best to limit Peyton and ballhawk. And my favorite part is that the D seems to make its biggest plays in the biggest moments.


    On Second thought you still have to give it to 01 going from losing the SB to doing what they are know compared to 5-11 to winning the SB.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  3. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    I agree. Smith was exceptional last night.
  4. TyronePoole

    TyronePoole Banned

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    SMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTHHHHH!!!!!

    [​IMG]
  5. braveht

    braveht Rookie

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    Who is Smith?
  6. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Am I on the right board? Who is Smith?
  7. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    This belongs in the Edelman thread which I can hardly bear to read, but one of the biggest offensive explosions for the Patriots came against the Ravens prior to Edelman getting hurt. He was making great plays. The combo of Welker and Edelman out there at the same time seemed very difficult to contain even for a good Ravens D. I want to see Edelman continue to get snaps but not at Welkers expense.

    If you go 2 TEs, 3 WRs, I'd really like to see the defense defend Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, Hernandez and Gronkowski.
  8. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    when it comes to the secondary, they have good players out of the box, only to see them go downhill:
    butler
    mccourty
    wheatley
    wilhite
    dowling

    or make zero progress:
    chung

    I fear something needs to change before they ruin wilson and dennard, too
  9. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :)

    I was thinking back to Law and my man OTIS Smith and I typed Smith instead of Wilson.

  10. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Give the man a kewpie doll!

    Yes, this is the reaction I was reaching for in this thread. I suspect that we have considerable talent in McCourty, Dowling, Dennard, Wilson and Ebner. These 5 could be the backbone of our defense in 2013, with the usual addition of others like the 2012 cast of Arrington, Moore, Cole, Chung and Gregory, some of whom may stay. Of course, we will continue to use draft choices to upgrade the secondary.

    The OPEN question is whether better coaching, or additional coaches, would develop the defensive backfield better than has been the case over the past few years. Barring that, we likely be adding 5 defensive backs every year, and hoping for the best.

  11. manxman2601

    manxman2601 On the Roster

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  12. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    I'm just perplexed at the secondary coaching. I've heard it beaten to death on here and know that it's being beaten to death on other message boards. I think I read on Mike Reiss's page that Bruschi addressed the techniques being coached here. Why is it so painfully obvious to everyone BUT the NE coaching staff?

    As for offense I'm generally happy with JMD and company. The one gripe I have (aside from the aforementioned Welker PT issue early on) and I said this in the post game thread, but although I can understand passing on first downs even when we are dominating on the ground, because you do have to maintain balance. I cannot understand the spread on first down in that situation. Why eliminate the run AND the threat of running the ball. At least line up with Ridley behind Brady that's what the run game is there for to keep defenses honest. As great as our run game has looked recently, I believe the pass will always be the strength of the team. But use the success of the run game to your favor! Then when you get put in 2nd and 10, it has been far too predictable JMD is going to run the ball. That really needs to stop or it will make it 100% easier for any legit defense to stop us when we face one (haven't faced one aside from AZ and Balti, one stifled our offense and the other made multiple clutch stops when the game could've been clinched).
  13. Urgent

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    Good topic.

    I will separate play-calling from coaching.

    On offense, there's not too much to debate.

    Dante Scarnecchia is one of the great assistant coaches in the league. There have been a few giants like this, who don't seem to look for a head coaching job, but stick at DC or OL or something and just dominate. Scarnecchia annually produces very good performance from first-rounders and undfa's. Neal, Hochstein, Wendell, Connolly - all were developed under Scarnecchia, and annually quickly make us forget our concerns about protecting Tom Brady behind an undrafted player. Five centers? No problems here. Never played college football? Give me a season, he'll be a starter.

    The WR coaching has been pretty good as well. While the system is very complex, it's not necessarily the cerebral guys who struggle. Anthony Gonzalez was interviewed in the offseason, and he was reading Great by Choice by Jim Collins. Chad Ochocinco, quick witted and well-spoken as he is, is clearly no idiot. Anyone who has listened to interviews with Welker, well, he picks up the offense just fine. The WR staff has improved the performance of some players, and been unable to communicate the system to others.

    At DL, the staff has gone through a serious transition without much of a hitch. While the team basically continues a two-gap approach, the switch from 4-3 to 3-4 can be significant. The improvement of Ninkovich is impressive, but maybe balanced by the struggles of so many athletic DE/OLB projects who failed.

    At DB we really have a problem. Others have noted that no DB's have been developed since Mangini left. The list of regressing high-profile players continues. We get excited about the next Tavon Wilson and Fonzie Dennard, but caution remains when we reflect on their recent predecessors.

    There are two DB coaches. Josh Boyer spent three seasons as the DB coach, but he is now CB coach. That's sort of a demotion. Brian Flores is the S coach. Boyer joined in 2006. Flores was a scout and then coaching assistant, and became S coach this year. It's unfair to say we need a Scarnecchia DB coach - anyone that good normally progresses through the ranks, as Mangini did - as Belichick did as well. Boyer can point to all the turnovers in 2011, which kept the Patriots in games. That #31 ranking in defense, however, was mainly a secondary issue.

    It sure seems like it is time to find or develop another secondary coach. Maybe Belichick will see something in Flores. The team is very unlikely to go outside to hire the secondary coach from a Miami or Cleveland or Oakland, some team where a coach is replaced. But maybe that is necessary.
  14. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    - I see the issue more as not being clutch than being inept. Outside of the Saints game a couple of years ago, I don't recall many games where the defense couldn't keep the Pats in the game. There are many instances where the defense needed a single stop to win but couldn't pull it off. The Ravens game was the latest example.

    - Belichick seems to be as particular about his DBs as Brady is about his receivers. He seems to lose trust in his DBs very early and that seems to derail their development. Arrington is certainly not the best cover corner in the league, but he has shown Belichick that he will be reliable in executing the plays as called with no freelancing. That gets him on the field. I'm at a loss to explain Sterling Moore though.

    - If the youngsters progress mentally through this season, I'm pretty comfortable with what McCourty, Arrington (in the slot only), Dennard, Dowling and Wilson can do in coverage. They shouldn't get beat physically which is definitely an improvement over the last couple of years.

    - With an improved rush (assuming Jones starts getting some holding calls) and a continued ability to keep the opposing RBs under control, the pass defense could be significantly improved by the time the weather turns cold.

    So I'm optimistic but also realize that the difference between 3 and 6 championships is a few big plays in the secondary.
  15. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    bring back *ahem* ......... mangini
  16. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is he out of work?

  17. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wilhite was never good
    Wheatley flashed potential for less than a handful of games, really (1 start and gone)
    Dowling did essentially nothing
    Butler sucked from the jump
    Chung has been the same lousy pass defender for his entire career

    McCourty is the only player where there's any real issue. That tells me that it's likely specific to him, and not systemic. This team was able to coach up Sanders, Samuel, Hobbs, Wilson and others, after all.

    The problem is bad players in the secondary, not bad coaching.


    Just my $.02
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  18. BradyBranch39

    BradyBranch39 Rookie

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    just by listening to him in highlight packages, Deion Sanders would be an awesome CB coach. I doubt he'd ever be interested in that though.
  19. BradyBranch39

    BradyBranch39 Rookie

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    I had a strong feeling during the game that BB thought Sterling would match up well against Denver.

    He was wrong but that's what I think it was.
  20. Urgent

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    OK, chickens and eggs, sort of hard to split the performance results between quality of player and quality of coaching.

    So let's assume that McCourty, Wheatley, Dowling, Butler, Chung, Wilhite were all poor players and poor draft decisions.

    Look for a minute at this pool:
    Neal, Connolly, Wendell, Koppen, Hochstein, Levoir, Yates. Throw in more highly drafted players (but considered "reaches" maybe?) in Vollmer & Kaczur.

    In their first or second season with the team, you would not have pointed to that pool as top talent. Yet superior coaching and commitment helped them develop into solid players while here. And those that left mostly tailed off when they did.

    We've also seen late-round DL do well here (Love, Pryor). Late round RB (BJGE, Bolden potentially). There's a late round QB who has done well.

    So, either we are mis-remembering some moments of hope - recall the concern last year when "Chung, the Patriots best player in the secondary" was out, and check out the Dennard thread or the comments about "more Tavon Wilson" - or those players in the secondary never progressed.

    Regardless, the secondary players were mostly drafted in the #30-50 overall range, and that similar pool of OL was mostly drafted in the 150-udfa range. According to NFL experts, there was more talent in the secondary group. It just never developed.

    In comparison, the Patriots have failed to develop their players in the secondary. Seems to be a long enough track record that there is a trend. And should be a concern.
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