Coaching

[PatsFan2]

when it comes to the secondary, they have good players out of the box, only to see them go downhill:
butler
mccourty
wheatley
wilhite
dowling

or make zero progress:
chung

I fear something needs to change before they ruin wilson and dennard, too

Illegal that is so wrong. That said, i hope Dowling regains his form at times he looks promising.

 

[RodThePat]

Wilhite was never good
Wheatley flashed potential for less than a handful of games, really (1 start and gone)
Dowling did essentially nothing
Butler sucked from the jump
Chung has been the same lousy pass defender for his entire career

McCourty is the only player where there's any real issue. That tells me that it's likely specific to him, and not systemic. This team was able to coach up Sanders, Samuel, Hobbs, Wilson and others, after all.

The problem is bad players in the secondary, not bad coaching.


Just my $.02

Deus, Darius Butler was playing well down the stretch in '09 and there were high hopes for him coming into 2010. Hobbs was also a guy whose quality of play diminished season after season, as was Eugene Wilson (who was great in his first two seasons, and then became irrelevant). The fact is, the only secondary player Belichick drafted and coached into becoming very good was Samuel. The rest of them range from adequate (Wilson, Sanders) to terrible (Meriweather, Wilhite, Butler). That's not a good record. And if those guys never had potential to begin with, Belichick's player evaluation system is severely flawed when it comes to defensive backs.

 

[PatsFan2]

Wilhite was never good
Wheatley flashed potential for less than a handful of games, really (1 start and gone)
Dowling did essentially nothing
Butler sucked from the jump
Chung has been the same lousy pass defender for his entire career

McCourty is the only player where there's any real issue. That tells me that it's likely specific to him, and not systemic. This team was able to coach up Sanders, Samuel, Hobbs, Wilson and others, after all.

The problem is bad players in the secondary, not bad coaching.


Just my $.02

I wouldn't put Samuel in the same sentence as those Players...compared to them he was Elite. The only bad play i remember Samuel making is dropping that int in that SB.

 

[PatsFan2]

Belichick's player evaluation system is severely flawed when it comes to defensive backs.

*Ahem* clears throat and WR's too.:snob:

 

[Deus Irae]

OK, chickens and eggs, sort of hard to split the performance results between quality of player and quality of coaching.

So let's assume that McCourty, Wheatley, Dowling, Butler, Chung, Wilhite were all poor players and poor draft decisions.

Look for a minute at this pool:
Neal, Connolly, Wendell, Koppen, Hochstein, Levoir, Yates. Throw in more highly drafted players (but considered "reaches" maybe?) in Vollmer & Kaczur.

In their first or second season with the team, you would not have pointed to that pool as top talent. Yet superior coaching and commitment helped them develop into solid players while here. And those that left mostly tailed off when they did.

We've also seen late-round DL do well here (Love, Pryor). Late round RB (BJGE, Bolden potentially). There's a late round QB who has done well.

So, either we are mis-remembering some moments of hope - recall the concern last year when "Chung, the Patriots best player in the secondary" was out, and check out the Dennard thread or the comments about "more Tavon Wilson" - or those players in the secondary never progressed.

Regardless, the secondary players were mostly drafted in the #30-50 overall range, and that similar pool of OL was mostly drafted in the 150-udfa range. According to NFL experts, there was more talent in the secondary group. It just never developed.

In comparison, the Patriots have failed to develop their players in the secondary. Seems to be a long enough track record that there is a trend. And should be a concern.

Let's start by clearing a couple of things, based on what you posted. These are just my takes, but getting them out there might avoid misunderstandings moving forward:

• I don't think McCourty was a bad pick. I think he's got one or more issues which are killing his game, but I also think he's good enough to become a solid CB if he fixes those issues.
  
• I never been one who was throwing bouquets at Chung. I've always talked about his poor coverage ability.
  
• Neither LeVoir nor Yates were ever solid players
  
• Your lists ignore players that did develop due to coaching (some examples are Gay - a UDFA, Wilson - converted to safety, and Sanders - a 4th round pick

Having gotten that out of the way, I'll note that there's a difference between not being one of the very best coaches and being a bad coach. Scar is at the very top of the profession, and having him as the only guy there for all these years has allowed for an extraordinary amount of stability. It's not surprising that he seems to get more out of his players than pretty much any other coach. He's better than pretty much any other coach.

There's also another big issue here. If you look at the Patriots under BB, they've drafted their successful tackles high. Light, Vollmer and Solder are all first and second round picks. Even Kazcur, a lesser player who played for several seasons, was a 3rd round pick. That's reflective of what happens in the draft, as tackles and cornerbacks are taken high, and guards and centers tend to drop lower in the draft.

As for QB, they've gotten lucky. Yes, Brady was a 6th round pick, but that was obviously a mistake made by 32 teams, to let him get that far down in the draft. Cassel was a 7th, but the parade of QBs also includes failures like Bishop, Klingsbury, O'Connell and more.

Lastly, go take a look at which of the busts have been successful elsewhere. If it was just coaching, a guy like Butler should have been able to rebound once he got out of New England. That hasn't been the case.

I think the problem has been much more related to poor talent evaluation than to poor coaching. It could certainly be a more balanced combination of both than I think it is, though, given the turnover in the coaching ranks.

 

[The Brandon Five]

I wouldn't put Samuel in the same sentence as those Players...compared to them he was Elite. The only bad play i remember Samuel making is dropping that int in that SB.

There was also this:

Harrison says Tyree was Asante Samuel’s man | ProFootballTalk

 

[mgteich]

Yes a player who comes into the league and has 4 year of mediocre coaches COULD reverse all this bad training and develop elsewhere.

Scar is the exception; we should all agree. But we have lots of other coaches, and lots of other units on the team in addition to the secondary. The open question is whether better coaching would produce better results. Stated this way, the answer seems obvious. The real question is whether there are coaches out there that could make a meaningful difference.

Do we think that McCourty, Dowling, Dennard, Wilson and Ebner are a reasonable young core for our secondary? Are Arrington, Chung, Gregory, Cole and Moore a horrible set of veterans to be included in a 10 man secondary? Is this set of 10 better than 2011?

Personally, I think that the talent is improving. The results will likely improve based on the talent and in the improved play of the front seven. Do you agree?

We will upgrade again next year, and in every year. Do you think that we don't use enough draft resources on the secondary?

In the end, I think that the talent is improving, but that could do a lot better with better coaching. How much is a top secondary coach worth?

Lastly, go take a look at which of the busts have been successful elsewhere. If it was just coaching, a guy like Butler should have been able to rebound once he got out of New England. That hasn't been the case.

I think the problem has been much more related to poor talent evaluation than to poor coaching. It could certainly be a more balanced combination of both than I think it is, though, given the turnover in the coaching ranks.

 

[ATippett56]

2013 NFL Draft:

Back to the drawing board for New England Patriots defensive backs.

List of 2013 New England Patriots unrestricted free agent defensive backs:

Kyle Arrington
Patrick Chung
Marquice Cole (special teams)

One also has to question the performance of the current defensive backs:

Steven Gregory
Sterling Moore

 

[ATippett56]

Do we think that McCourty, Dowling, Dennard, Wilson and Ebner are a reasonable young core for our secondary?

McCourty - starter
Dowling - recovering from hip surgery last season
Dennard - rookie (too soon to tell)
Wilson - rookie (too soon to tell)
Ebner - rookie (special teams)

Are Arrington, Chung, Gregory, Cole and Moore a horrible set of veterans to be included in a 10 man secondary?

Arrington - not worth a contract extension
Chung - not worth a contract extension
Moore - meh
Gregory - disappointment
Cole - special teams

 

[mgteich]

Yes, we will have 5 question marks for the 2013 roster. The 2013 choices will/should come from a mix or draftees, re-signs and free agents, just like every year. I like our starting point with

McCourty, Dowling, Dennard and Moore
Wilson, Gregory and Ebner.

As you say, that leaves us the task of replacing Arrington, Chung and Cole. I expect us to draft 3 defensive backs since there is a good safety class for a change.

2013 NFL Draft:

Back to the drawing board for New England Patriots defensive backs.

List of 2013 New England Patriots unrestricted free agent defensive backs:

Kyle Arrington
Patrick Chung
Marquice Cole (special teams)

One also has to question the performance of the current defensive backs:

Steven Gregory
Sterling Moore

 

[ATippett56]

As you say, that leaves us the task of replacing Arrington, Chung and Cole. I expect us to draft 3 defensive backs since there is a good safety class for a change.

I personally believe Bill Belichick will retain Cole for special teams.

 

[Avenger]

I personally believe Bill Belichick will retain Cole for special teams.

I like the idea of drafting 2 safeties, I think TJ McDonald from USC and Daimion Stafford from Nebraska would be good picks in the 1st and 4th rounds respectively. Safeties would be Wilson, McDonald, Ebner, Stafford and CBs would be Dowling, McCourty, Dennard, Moore that's eight players in the secondary, with room for one or two more. Cole and Gregory could be them.

 

[ATippett56]

I like the idea of drafting 2 safeties, I think TJ McDonald from USC and Daimion Stafford from Nebraska would be good picks in the 1st and 4th rounds respectively.

I'd rather draft a safety in the second or third round in a deep safety draft class than expend one in the first round.

As for Daimion Stafford:

Daimion Stafford, FS, Nebraska, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

10/02/2012 - 10/01/12 NFL DRAFT SCOUT FALLER: FS DAIMION STAFFORD, NEBRASKA...Despite their 30-27 win over the Badgers Saturday night, the Nebraska defense struggled to stop Wisconsin's offense most of the night, an offense that ranks last in the Big Ten. And while senior inside linebacker Will Compton had a productive game, safety Daimion Stafford, another senior leader, had an inconsistent night. He had a tough time against both the run and the pass with his weaknesses showing in both areas. Stafford fills run lanes hard and fast, but he needs to keep his pads low and his lack of body strength showed when Badgers senior running back Montee Ball ran right over him, knocking Stafford onhis backside. He later showed poor awareness in the passing game, reacting late to help towards the sideline and making obvious contact with the receiver before the ball arrived. It was an easy pass interference call for the officials as Stafford never made a play on the ball or turned his head around, even though it could have been a game-changing interception if he would have tried to locate the ball. Stafford has NFL quality skills and does a nice job when facing the action, but needs to play smarter and more consistent.

Perfect! Another defensive back for the New England Patriots defensive secondary that does not play the ball nor turn his head around!

 

[mgteich]

I'm fine with re-signing Cole or any other Ster that Belichick finds worthy.

I personally believe Bill Belichick will retain Cole for special teams.

B

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes a player who comes into the league and has 4 year of mediocre coaches COULD reverse all this bad training and develop elsewhere.

Given that Wilhite (3) Wheatley (2) and Butler (2) weren't around for 4 years, and that McCourty's still on the team and only in year 3, I'm going to just point out that this particular 'argument' of yours is inapplicable.

Scar is the exception; we should all agree. But we have lots of other coaches, and lots of other units on the team in addition to the secondary. The open question is whether better coaching would produce better results. Stated this way, the answer seems obvious. The real question is whether there are coaches out there that could make a meaningful difference.

A bad player is a bad player. That's not the same as a badly coached player. Or, to put it another way, the mighty Scar has failed with a lot of players.

Do we think that McCourty, Dowling, Dennard, Wilson and Ebner are a reasonable young core for our secondary? Are Arrington, Chung, Gregory, Cole and Moore a horrible set of veterans to be included in a 10 man secondary? Is this set of 10 better than 2011?

Is it better than 2011? Sure, because there's more talent. Sergio Brown is elsewhere, for example. It is a reasonable young core for the Patriots secondary? The odds say that it's not. Is that a horrible set of veterans? I don't know that I'd go with horrible, but it's a pretty poor group.

Personally, I think that the talent is improving. The results will likely improve based on the talent and in the improved play of the front seven. Do you agree?

Sure, there will be improvement. The question is how much that improvement will be. That will depend on the talent level and how it's coached, just as it does every year. It's probably not a coincidence that Belichick defenses tend to get better as the year goes on, after all.

We will upgrade again next year, and in every year. Do you think that we don't use enough draft resources on the secondary?

I think player personnel acquisition for the defensive secondary has been very disappointing for quite some time. I think that's not because of a lack of draft resources but, rather, a lack of proper player evaluation. Perhaps this year will end up being a turning point, perhaps not. Time will tell.

In the end, I think that the talent is improving, but that could do a lot better with better coaching. How much is a top secondary coach worth?

In the end, I think history has shown that the problem's been largely a talent issue.

 

[VJCPatriot]

just by listening to him in highlight packages, Deion Sanders would be an awesome CB coach. I doubt he'd ever be interested in that though.

Deion indeed would make a great DB coach. I mean he made a nobody like Butler look like draft gold at the combine, turned out he was fool's gold though. But if the guy isn't already a DB coach in the NFL, it sounds like he's not interested in that career track and prefers running camps to prepare new prospects instead.

 

[zipster9]

Deion indeed would make a great DB coach. I mean he made a nobody like Butler look like draft gold at the combine, turned out he was fool's gold though. But if the guy isn't already a DB coach in the NFL, it sounds like he's not interested in that career track and prefers running camps to prepare new prospects instead.

Rodney Harrison said on Sunday that he'd love to try out and be a secondary coach..

TyLaw our future DB coach.
RodneyHarrison our future Secondary coach.


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