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Class vs. No Class (Pioli - Mangini)

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by zoostation, Mar 7, 2009.

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  1. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    One of the main reasons The Patriots changed the locks on the donut eating snitch who currently coaches the Cleveland Browns was this. While still under employment of the Patriots on the flight back after a tough playoff loss to Denver the snitch was trying to recruit Willie and Branch as he knew he was soon to be the HC of the Jets. This was the beginning of the downhill spiral between Bill Belichick and his former water boy.

    On the other hand you have another guy brought into football by BB back in the Cleveland days... Scott Pioli. Here is Heath Evans explaining that KC wanted him but wouldn't mess with him because of Scotts respect for Bill.

    Boston Globe - Evans's decision came down to the Patriots and the Saints, although Matt Cassel was making a push for Evans to join the former New England quarterback, Vrabel, and general manager Scott Pioli in Kansas City.

    "This is one of the main reasons I respect Scott," said Evans. "He said, 'I know Bill is trying to re-sign you, and I respect Bill so much, and he's done so much for me, so I'm not going to be in play.' I know Matt Cassel was pushing hard for it. We would have loved to be with Mike and Matty. But we found a great home, and I'm excited to see how it goes."
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2009
  2. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think it's apples and oranges. I would compare Mangini to what Parcells did with the Pats - looking for another job when he should have been focused on the current game. In Mangini's case those guys were still under contract; in Pioli's case Evans was a free agent.

    If I was a Chiefs fan I would be mighty upset at that remark. Pioli's duty is now to build the Chiefs in to a winner - not to yield way to his former employer. Heath Evans was a free agent; he was fair game to be recruited by the Chiefs, Pats, and all 30 other teams. If he would have helped KC and Pioli elected to defer to BB, then he is doing a disservice to his employer, his team and his fans.

    While as a Pats fan I appreciate Pioli not trying to recruit Evans, as an NFL fan I give Pioli a thumbs down for this move.

    Ex-Patriot Evans secured the ideal deal - The Boston Globe
  3. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    I disapprove because it limited Evans' employment possibilities, as well as for the reasons previously stated.
  4. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    I couldn’t disagree more.

    The Parcells situation was really between Bill Parcells and Robert Kraft. When Bill agreed to be the head coach under the previous owner (Orthwein) he had input to the draft and player personnel and basically more power. When Kraft bought the team he stripped Parcells of his power and gave Bobby Grier complete control (This is where the famous tuna quote...."if you're going to cook the meal...you should at least be able to shop for the groceries" came from). Kraft later learned from his mistake as he eventually gave Bill Belichick full control. I can understand why Bill Parcells was upset as his role was diminished with the new ownership.

    The code of conduct with Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick was as strong as ever when Parcells needed a kicker (for the Cowboys) and he wanted Adam V. Parcells called Belichick and asked him if he was trying to keep Adam. When BB told him ... yes…Parcells never went after Adam V. Indy jumped on him later that week, but Indy was not part of the Parcells / Bellichick coaching tree.

    Pioli absolutely did the right thing by maintaining a healthy up front relationship. KC fans should be pissed? Are you insane?? KC fans have already benifited from this ethical and healthy business relationship and will continue as long as he keeps things on the ‘up and up’.

    This ‘good faith’ approach is also the reason the Patriots gave up a 2nd round pick after they signed ‘free agent’ Wes Welker.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2009
  5. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Eggs-actly!
  6. N.Eman

    N.Eman Rookie

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    My god, what a difference between Piolo and Mangina. I'm so glad he went to KC instaed of Browns. Im just curious to see what happens on the field when we face off against the Chiefs :S
  7. Number 2

    Number 2 Rookie

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    I am pretty stoked in general about the new Chiefs. I live in Colorado so I see them twice a year. I am glad to be able to continue to watch Cassel and Vrabel.
  8. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    You'll enjoy Lamont Jordan too.

    And that brings up another point. I'd bet my house that Josh McDaniels got the green light from Belichick to sign Jordan. It was pretty obvious he wasn't in the Patriots future plans. No way mcDaniels is going to pull a 'Fredo' mangini on Bill Belichick as:
    1) he's 100 times smarter than Fredo ... 2) he has respect for Belichick... and 3) he knows keeping business on the up and up will enable future deals.

    Bill Belichcik and the Patriots will never deal with Mangini again. Ever.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2009
  9. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, I'm not insane. Just trying to look at this as objectively as possible. Pioli's responsibility is to improve the Chiefs, just as McDaniels' responisbility is to improve the Broncos. They don't need BB's approval to recruit a free agent.

    I'm well aware of the Kraft-Parcells dynamic, no need for a history lesson thank you. The point there was that Parcells could have and should have said 'I'm preparing for the SB, let's talk as soon as it's over.' That, to me, bordered on unethical; I see nothing unethical with recruiting a free agent, nor do I see the need to call the player's former team to seek permission first.

    As far as Welker goes, he was a RFA. The Pats didn't trade a draft pick out of the goodness of their heart, as a RFA the Dolphins would have received a 2nd round pick regardless. Also, the Pats never signed Welker to a qualifying offer sheet; the trade was made instead of doing that.

    I guess we agree to disagree on what is fair game in NFL free agency. I'm more in line with Mike Reiss, who had this to say from this column:

  10. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    It wasn’t meant to be a history lesson. We as fans (and even the media) only know bits and pieces of the Parcells/Kraft fallout. I have a very difficult time believing Parcells didn’t give everything he had to win that Super Bowl. Maybe you could ask Mike Reiss (or even Ron Borges), but I’m pretty sure they don’t know the entire story either.

    But this isn't really about Bill Parcells and robert Kraft. It's about coaches and there former mentors. On this...we certainly agree to disagree.

    Obviously free agents are fair game but maintaining relationships within the league and not screwing a former mentor goes a long way. Heath Evans said Pioli wanted him but wouldn't because of respect for Bill. This will continue a good business relationship and ensure clean trades that benifit both sides will continue. Mangini was accused of tampering with Branch while he was still Patriot property. I find it difficult to believe Scott Pioli would conduct business in that manner.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2009
  11. APatrioticVirginian

    APatrioticVirginian Banned

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    I was pissed when the browns hired that judas, but then I thought Perfect he cant succeed steering that train wreck of an organization. In football 2 strikes your out.(especially for someone with no prior success in any level) Next stop the Pee Wee league football.(which is a respected gay canadian football league actually) So bye bye Manweenie.
  12. APatrioticVirginian

    APatrioticVirginian Banned

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    I think you are real naive about Parcells. Try or not he should have squashed the story before the playoffs. It was common knowledge he was going to the Jets after the superbowl, and that was a way unhealthy clubhouse because of it.
  13. RichSeymour

    RichSeymour Banned

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    McDaniels already has that team imploding. Pissed off his franchise QB, probably can never repair that relationship, and has signed a bunch turds in free agency. The aforementioned Lamont Jordan being one of them.
  14. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    Squash it before the playoffs??? Will McDonough broke the story a few days before the SuperBowl. Kind of difficult to squash it while on the biggest media stage of the season.
  15. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    Cutler needs to grow up a bit.

    Besides being injured....what did you not like about the way Lamont Jordan ran the ball (especially down the stretch)?
  16. Lord_Reginald_III

    Lord_Reginald_III Rookie

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    back fat vs. no back fat (mangini - pioli)

    parcells is clearly shady & does what he likes, BUT -- unlike fatgini -- he has a record. eric is nowhere near as smart as he thinks (remember his last year here as coordinator?), and he makes bellichick look like parcells on the charm front.

    disrespectful + entitled + dumb moves + zero charisma + lisp = bad football leader, "classy" or no
  17. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    Excellent point.

    ...lol at the rest of the post. Magini= lisp hahahahahahaah
  18. APatrioticVirginian

    APatrioticVirginian Banned

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    He didnt break squat it was common knowledge at the star of the regular season.
  19. T-ShirtDynasty

    T-ShirtDynasty Moderator

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    On the surface, at first I agreed with your thought... but then I thought, what about Paxton and Gaffney? Yes, it makes sense that Jordan wasn't in the Pats long term plans, but I find it hard to believe that an incredibly solid and consistent long snapper wasn't in our future plans. With Gaff you could go either way I guess, but BB has always seemed high on him, calling him a tactician when it comes to running routes, and he was a great downfield blocker, which Belichick loves, and was a solid #3 WR in our system for a decent price.

    You think Belichick gave the green light to JMcD on all three? I find that hard to believe. I think Reiss is right, it's Belichick's typical "it is what it is" approach, he knows that a free agent is fair game.

    So what kind of house do you live in? ;)
  20. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    It was common knowledge that Bill Parcells was going to the Jets at the start of the 1996 regular season? Did Parcells tell you this in training camp or something?
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