Can D be turned around?

[KillEM]

The way teams are going up and down the field on the Pats, has been a bit hard to view. It makes me nervous about the team's chances as time goes on. It wasn't exactly Moss, Jerry Rice, and Tony Gonzalez carving up the Pats secondary the last couple of weeks.

Can it be fixed, and how? Does anybody have to be replaced? Could somebody currently out come back and be the answer? Will younger talent like Guyton, Merriweather, and Mayo improve the D, as they get some time under their belt?

I'm asking because, I don't know how things can improve in the short term. I could see a big boost come playoff time, if Thomas comes back, but short of that, I'm looking for some hope here.

Is their a reason for hope of improvment, or is the team going to have to put up mega-points every game?

Vrabel needs to be replaced.

We need a #1 CB, or atleast someone better than Hobbs and Deltha.

James Sanders is a below average player. I would replace him.

 

[DaBruinz]

I agree with every word in this post.

As I stated in the "Secondary" thread, even if we suffered zero injuries to our DBackfield, our talent level there would be adequate, but not outstanding.

Hobbs, Wheatley, Webster, O'Neal & Bryant/LSanders would have been the best-case scenario at CB; at Safety, it would have been Harrison, Meriweather, JSanders, TWilliams & LSanders/Ventrone. Not exactly 2003, but probably good enough.

But now Wheatley, Bryant, Harrison & TWilliams have been replaced with Wilhite, Richardson, Spann, and S/WRs Slater & Ventrone. Nobody has replaced SSs Rodney & Tank - Lil' Jimmy Sanders doesn't count; and not one of the new CBs has come close to replacing A$ante, or Gay, or even Hank the Man Poteat.

Would you just stop before you hurt yourself? You are absolutely the worst talent evaluator on this board. You don't even know who has replaced who so you just make stuff up.

The secondary started with Hobbs, O'Neal, Wheatley, Wilhite, L. Sanders, J. Sanders, Harrison and Meriweather. They secondary is now Hobbs, O'Neal, Wilhite, L. Sanders, J. Sanders, Richardson, Spann and Meriweather.

And, no offense, but L. Sanders is better than either Gay or Poteat. So are Richardson and Wilhite. You clearly didn't watch the games last year, otherwise you'd know this. s

At OLB, Vrabel is finished as a pass-rusher to be feared, or maybe even respected. Woods lacks explosiveness, a closing burst, and instincts. If you believe in God, then pray to Him that Vince Redd can contribute at his position as much as Guyton & Mayo have contributed at theirs. And where would our ILBs be without those 2? Up Shyte Creek, that's where. Save a prayer for a speedy recovery by AT, while you're at it.

HUH? How can you make such an evaluation on Woods already? Especially when the coaching staff says exactly the opposite about Woods?

The question was: can our Defense be turned around? My answer: No. In fact, it's getting worse, not better. And except for AT - maybe, there is no help on the horizon, only storm clouds.

With every injury, yes, its gotten worse because the Pats have put a lesser player on the field. The object is for the remaining players and the new players to now band together and form a cohesive unit. That takes time. The Patriots have 5 games left to get it righted. Can it happen? Yes, it can. In fact, we've seen it happen before. If you think about it, you'll know what I am talking about.

 

[KillEM]

I think it is a lack of talent with DB's and coaching and front office.

I'll start with the front office. Team has failed to replace key players like Ted Johnson, Willie Mac, Ty Law, Milloy. All those guys were 1st day picks in the draft. They tried to replace them with all second day picks and bad FA singings. Pats had three undrafted LB's on the field the other day. Guyton, Woods and Redd. There might be some upside, but you see the impact of a day 1 pick in Mayo.

I also believe that Pats wasted way too many draft picks when they tried to run a 2 TE O. Two #1s and a 3rd with some where in the area of 8 draft picks spent on the TE postion. Way too much!

How about K. Dansby instead of Watson. Dansby went one pick after.

Running a 3-4, Pats should have used 8 draft picks on LBS and DBS. I looked to the Steelers and the turn over they have had with their system. Look at the OLB postion, it started with Llyod, Chad Brown, Gildon, Porter and now Harrison. I am leaving out all the turn over at ILB and the other OLB postion.

I go with some bad coaching during the game. On the Ricky Williams TD, the team was confused. Players were running on and off the field. They were no even set. Why not call a timeout and get the right people on the field.

3rd and long and they play coverage for a team that can not play coverage. Why not go after him, force him to get rid of it. IE 3rd and long Jets game.

I just don't think they have the talent at the DB postion. Hobbs does not attack the ball, he plays the WR. Samuel and Law both could attack the ball, I don't see this as part of Hobbs game. Hobbs plays anyone with speed and height, its all over for him. He got his but handed to him in the Rams game.

I will say that Merriweather has been making some nice hits out there the last few weeks. I know that 3-15 hurt bad. Decked Wayne a couple of times in the Colts game. Had some nice hits in the game the other day. I think once he gets it, he will be really good.

BB please use this draft for the D. Also try to find a WR late in the draft IE David Givens and please try to find a RB that is not made out of glass.

+1 couldnt agree more.
This guy knows what he is talking about.

This upcoming draft needs mostly Defense with a skill player here and there in the later rounds.

 

[DaBruinz]

+1 couldnt agree more.
This guy knows what he is talking about.

This upcoming draft needs mostly Defense with a skill player here and there in the later rounds.

Actually, he doesn't know what he's talking about and was wrong in most of his post.

He was wrong in his analysis of the draft picks, in his comparison of the Pats 3-4 to Pittsburgh's, and how the Pats draft, just to name a few.

So, -1 to him and -2 to you.

 

[KillEM]

Ah shutup Bruinz, you argue like a old prudish woman.

Pats68 is DEAD ON accurate when he says we never replaced our keys players. Instead we signed bums like Eric Alexander and Pierre Woods. I'm surprised they have even lasted on our roster so long. The Linebacker overhaul is a couple years late and we've been paying for it badly.

Two TE's in the 1st rd... wasnt worth it. Where is that GEM Ryan Claridge these days? He was the highest LB Belicheck drafted up until Mayo this year.

 

[PATS68]

Ah shutup Bruinz, you argue like a old prudish woman.

Pats68 is DEAD ON accurate when he says we never replaced our keys players. Instead we signed bums like Eric Alexander and Pierre Woods. I'm surprised they have even lasted on our roster so long. The Linebacker overhaul is a couple years late and we've been paying for it badly.

Two TE's in the 1st rd... wasnt worth it. Where is that GEM Ryan Claridge these days? He was the highest LB Belicheck drafted up until Mayo this year.

Thank you.

 

[PATS68]

There is so much wrong with your line of thought I don't know where to start.

Ok start with an insult like always. Good!

First of all, the draft is a crap shoot. Secondly, Willie McGinest HAS been replaced. First it was by Rosie Colvin and then by Adalius Thomas. Milloy was replaced by Rodney Harrison. Meriweather has since been drafted.

Ok, Willie in my eyes has not been replaced. Willie was more or less replaced by Banta Cain. Colvin and he played together. Then came Thomas. No one has replaced his big time key plays. Colvin did not live up to the billing. I think they moved Thomas around too much last year.

Harrison did not replace Milloy. Wilson replaced Milloy. Milloy would not redue his deal, then he was cut a week before the season. Milloy and Harrison lined up next to each other all through training camp. So Milloy was replaced by Wilson.

The Patriots also drafted Terence Wheatley, whom they believe will be a starting CB. The Pats, as is their want, were bringing Wheatley along slowly.

Like you just said, draft can be a crap shoot. The guy could be a bust for all we know. Can't put faith in a guy we know nothing about. Seems like other rookie DB got more playing time.

Another thing, McGinest, Johnson, Milloy, and Law were all drafted prior to Belichick getting to New England.

My point all high draft picks at different levels of the D. Great players that were the core through the playoffs and the 1st SB win. Game changers.

Having 3 UDFAs on the field means nothing. I have news for you, some of the best players in the league are UDFA. Adam Vinatieri, Kurt Warner, etc, etc.

I have no problem with UDFA. It is just sad when you have UDFA and low round draft picks beating out 2nd rounds picks on the regular.

B. Johnson 2nd beat out Givens 7th round.
M. Hill 2nd beat out by M. Wright UDFA
Chad Jackson 2nd beat out by Jab Street FA.
A Klemm. Beatout by Joe A.



You do realize that those 3 draft picks you are talking about occured over a 5 year time span, yes? Belichick has spent 9 picks over a 9 year period on TEs. Not sure how you can consider that a LOT.

Your kidding right? It worked out so well that they went to the spread. Signed some great WR's. Would you be upset if the Pats did not resign Watson? I wouldn't.
I rather see the wealth spread around. 3-4 is your core D, pats always have injuries. Why not use one of those picks on the next great LB or DB.

How do you know that Dansby would have accelled in the Patriots system and under Belichick?

He could have been great for all you know. We will never know.



First of all, the Steelers 3-4 system is different than the Patriots. The system the Steelers play is a one gap system. The one the Pats play is a 2 Gap system.

I am talking aout LBs not D-linemen. You have to admit that they have had some great LBs in that System that produced Vrable. They signed Scott the DB and they Townsend in for a vist and I think they offered him a contract, but he went back to Pitt.

So I think the FO keeps and eye out on potential FA from that system.

As for what the Patriots should have done with the draft, you don't seem to understand that the Patriots use their own scouting to set their draft boards. At BEST, all the internet sites should be used as a loose guideline as to whether or not the Pats will like the player. The Patriots also draft personel based on their criteria of VALUE. Not based strictly on need and not based on best player available.

Everyone and their sister knew they were going to draft Mayo. Michael Hollie called the day before the draft. All the guys at weei knew who they were going to draft.

I know they look towards value. I think value is just coach speak. All coaches have their systems. A highly rated 225 LB that still on the board and the value is great, I don't see the pats drafting that player.

Speaking of value. was Dan Klecko better value than Koppen and Samuels? Was drafted higher.



Guyton was on his man. It was a very good throw on a fade route. Can't you stop and give Pennington creditr for that? I am not puting it on

I don't put this on Guyton, like you said it was a great throw.

That being said, anyone on the Pats defense could have called the time out. Or any of the coaches. I think its overboard to call it "bad coaching" when it really was just a simple mistake.

The point in the game where players and coaches are confused, there should have been a time out. Pats were in a shoot out and needed to try to hold them to a FG. Call time out, get your best players on the field and get the best play called.

I think some of the confusion was Pees ws up in the coaches box for the 1st time


This is actually where I would have thought you'd say there was bad coaching because the Patriots stayed with their base 3-4 and didn't move in any sub packages. But, then the Nickel package got burned repeatedly against the Jets.

100% agree with you on this. WOW something we agree on. They put Vrable in a tough spot trying to cover #15 of the phins.




I think that your analysis is lacking. Hobbs plays the WR more than the ball because, in my opinion, the Pats don't currently have the cohesion amongst the secondary for them to gamble on attacking the ball. The flip side that you seem to forget is that Samuel was a mediocre tackler and he got burned plenty.

Hobbs just does not have the ball skills they other 2 had. The other 2 got paid alot of money so there is ton of talent there. Any WR that has height and speed will have a field day with Hobbs. The second half of last year Hobbs got beat like a drum. After the Red Skins game, he gave up a long TD in every game.



I remember Kevin Faulk being termed as "made of glass." He's turned into one of the best 3rd down backs and all-around weapons in the league.

I was talking about Maroney, not Faulk

I think you should read the article by Ron Borges when he was with weei. Talks about the Pats D and he makes some great points. Too much old and too much young and no middle. That is my whole point to my argument. They did not take care of the middle. You have a great football writer when he wants to be, taking up my argument.

 

[Fencer]

We all know that the Pats have made heavy investment in the DL, including two of their top 3 draft picks, a failed 2nd round pick (the late Marquise Hill), an expensive vet pickup (Ted Washington), and a multimillion dollar salary for a backup.

Investment in LB has included the other of the 3 highest draft picks, their top 2 investments in outside FAs (Randy Moss technically doesn't count), a couple of 3rd round pick, and some bargain hunting (which happened to turn up All-Pro Mike Vrabel).

Investment in DB has included a 1st round pick, a high 2nd rounder, a low 2nd rounder, some 3rd rounders, one somewhat expensive FA (Rodney), and a lot of bargain-hunting.

In terms of initial player acquisition, QB is where they've gotten by on the cheapest, trailed by OL and then DB. But they've invested a lot more in player retention in the other two groups than at DB, so DB is where they've paid the least for talent.

And it's showing.

 

[DaBruinz]

You repeated what I said about Colvin.

McGinest provided a better rush.

Yes I did. Because that is the truth. When the Pats brought in Colvin, the intent was to replace McGinest with him. The only reason it didn't happen was because of Colvin's injury.

Post hip injury, you are correct, McGinest provided a better pass rush. Pre-injury, we don't have enough of a sample size.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ah shutup Bruinz, you argue like a old prudish woman.

Pats68 is DEAD ON accurate when he says we never replaced our keys players. Instead we signed bums like Eric Alexander and Pierre Woods. I'm surprised they have even lasted on our roster so long. The Linebacker overhaul is a couple years late and we've been paying for it badly.

Two TE's in the 1st rd... wasnt worth it. Where is that GEM Ryan Claridge these days? He was the highest LB Belicheck drafted up until Mayo this year.

No, he's not dead on accurate. Also, you probably should check your facts because Alexander was signed prior to McGinest leaving. Pierre Woods was brought in in 2006. That is a year after McGinest was gone.

McGinest was replaced by Colvin. Law was replaced by Samuel. Milloy by Harrison. Ted Johnson is really the only one they didn't replace. I don't count Mayo as Johnson's replacement because Mayo is actually playing the spot that Bruschi played when Johnson was still on the team.

Ryan Claridge? He's suffering from major depression over the death of his brother. Are you really such a callous person as to fault him for that?

As for 2 1st round TEs, please do some homework on the Patriots drafting style because you don't seem to know what you are talking about. They draft the best value available based on their own scouting personnel and how players would fit into the scheme they run. There is no guarantee that Karlos Dansby or another LB would have fit into the Patriots scheme when that person was drafted.

 

[PATS68]

No, he's not dead on accurate. Also, you probably should check your facts because Alexander was signed prior to McGinest leaving. Pierre Woods was brought in in 2006. That is a year after McGinest was gone.

McGinest was replaced by Colvin. Law was replaced by Samuel. Milloy by Harrison. Ted Johnson is really the only one they didn't replace. I don't count Mayo as Johnson's replacement because Mayo is actually playing the spot that Bruschi played when Johnson was still on the team.

Ryan Claridge? He's suffering from major depression over the death of his brother. Are you really such a callous person as to fault him for that?

As for 2 1st round TEs, please do some homework on the Patriots drafting style because you don't seem to know what you are talking about. They draft the best value available based on their own scouting personnel and how players would fit into the scheme they run. There is no guarantee that Karlos Dansby or another LB would have fit into the Patriots scheme when that person was drafted.

Your put names up, not production. Willie was way better of a player than Colvin was. Production level drop off.

Samuels has 2 good years here, Law had several good years here. Law ten times better tackler and better at attacking the ball and better against the run. Overall better player. Samuel was never brought in here to replace Ty Law. Law got himself off the team becasue he would not redue his deal. Samuel to replace Pool I agree, not Law.

Wilson replaced Milloy, the plan was for Harrison and Milloy to line up next to each other. Would not redue his deal, cut a him a week before the opener. So I don't think he was brought into replace Milloy.

I do think your a little off with the TE postion. Pats were drafting for need not value. They wanted to run a 2 TE O. That is why they drafted all those TE. I think in the 3-4 you have more players at that postion that you play in a 2 TE O. More players drafted for a 2 person postion than 4 person postion.

On Dansby, for all you know he could have been great. I think he was a franchised player and most likely will be again. Who would you take today, Watson or Dansby?

On the draft, I did my home work.

Pats draft mostly 4 year players.

Common thing I see with most of the Pats drafted players, they have all played in the Senior Bowl.

Ty Warren, Mankins, Graham, Watson, Merriweather, Guyton the other RT from cal, can't remember his name. There are several other Pats players who have played in that game. I think the Pats really use that game to gage talent.

Another case that value is coach speak. Holmgren was coaching Graham in the senior bowl and made it be known that he was going to draft him. Pats traded up over Sehawks and drafted Graham.

 

[emoney_33]

Your put names up, not production. Willie was way better of a player than Colvin was. Production level drop off.

Samuels has 2 good years here, Law had several good years here. Law ten times better tackler and better at attacking the ball and better against the run. Overall better player.

Wilson replaced Milloy, the plan was for Harrison and Milloy to line up next to each other. Would not redue his deal, cut a him a week before the opener. So I don't think he was brought into replace Milloy.

I do think your a little off with the TE postion. Pats were drafting for need not value. They wanted to run a 2 TE O. That is why they drafted all those TE. I think in the 3-4 you have more players at that postion that you play in a 2 TE O. More players drafted for a 2 person postion than 4 person postion.

Was the idea of Milloy/Harrison lining up next to each other actually confirmed by BB/Pats or is it media/fan speculation?

Irregardless, Harrison would have replaced Milloy at SS no matter whether Milloy moved to FS or not?

 

[PATS68]

Was the idea of Milloy/Harrison lining up next to each other actually confirmed by BB/Pats or is it media/fan speculation?

Irregardless, Harrison would have replaced Milloy at SS no matter whether Milloy moved to FS or not?

I don't think BB would ever do that to a player. BB has shown that he would cut a vet early so he could get on with another team. Did it this year in training came with the vet TE that played for Colts and Seahawks

It had everything to do with the cap and they were over. They needed to be under before the 1st week of the season. He was given a bad deal by Bobby Greir and he was over paid. That is also why Ty Law left becasuse he and Milloy have the same agent and they would not budge on their contracts. Both were getting huge money and those were the best contracts at the time to get savings from.

The same agent who cost Lavar Arrington $11 million dollars becasue he did not read the contract right and signed off on it.

 

[emoney_33]

I don't think BB would ever do that to a player. BB has shown that he would cut a vet early so he could get on with another team. Did it this year in training came with the vet TE that played for Colts and Seahawks

It had everything to do with the cap and they were over. They needed to be under before the 1st week of the season. He was given a bad deal by Bobby Greir and he was over paid. That is also why Ty Law left becasuse he and Milloy have the same agent and they would not budge on their contracts. Both were getting huge money and those were the best contracts at the time to get savings from.

The same agent who cost Lavar Arrington $11 million dollars becasue he did not read the contract right and signed off on it.

Right but I'm saying had Milloy restructured and stayed, who's to say he wouldn't have split time or backed up Harrison at SS?

Still when it comes to the discussion of replacing pre-BB players, the SS position ultimately went from Milloy (pre-BB) to Harrison (BB)

 

[PATS68]

Right but I'm saying had Milloy restructured and stayed, who's to say he wouldn't have split time or backed up Harrison at SS?

Still when it comes to the discussion of replacing pre-BB players, the SS position ultimately went from Milloy (pre-BB) to Harrison (BB)

I think only BB would no that, but I think he would have been around for a while if he had re-did his deal. BB stated that it was the toughest thing he ever had to do as a coach.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ok, Willie in my eyes has not been replaced. Willie was more or less replaced by Banta Cain. Colvin and he played together. Then came Thomas. No one has replaced his big time key plays. Colvin did not live up to the billing. I think they moved Thomas around too much last year.

Fine, we agree to disagree, though I believe your thinking to be false. Why? Because TBC wasn't ever a starter. Colvin "didn't live up to his billing" because of the major hip injury he suffered in his 2nd game with the Pats. As for "moving Thomas around too much last year," how do you figure that? Thomas was playing ILB until Colvin went down. Then he moved to OLB.

Harrison did not replace Milloy. Wilson replaced Milloy. Milloy would not redue his deal, then he was cut a week before the season. Milloy and Harrison lined up next to each other all through training camp. So Milloy was replaced by Wilson.

No you are re-writing history. Milloy was the SS, not the FS. Harrison replaced Milloy when Milloy was cut. And it was 5 days before the season. Harris actually got the start against Buffalo and it wasn't until the 2nd game of the season that Wilson saw time at FS.

Like you just said, draft can be a crap shoot. The guy could be a bust for all we know. Can't put faith in a guy we know nothing about. Seems like other rookie DB got more playing time.

So other rookie DBs got more playing time. That doesn't mean anything especially if you follow how the Patriots DON'T like to put pressure on rookies and would rather then develop for a year. Yes, there are the cased like Mankins and Mayo who are the exceptions. But, overall, the Pats would rather their draftees develop through special teams and on the practice field than on the game field where a mistake can cost you the game.

My point all high draft picks at different levels of the D. Great players that were the core through the playoffs and the 1st SB win. Game changers.

And the Patriots, under Belichick, have drafted players who are great players and have been part of that core also. Matt Light. Dan Koppen, Richard Seymour, Jarvis Green, Tom Brady, Asante Samuel, Gino Wilson (pre-injury), Deion Branch, David Givens, etc etc. All play makers on different parts of the team.

Having 3 UDFAs on the field means nothing. I have news for you, some of the best players in the league are UDFA. Adam Vinatieri, Kurt Warner, etc, etc.

I have no problem with UDFA. It is just sad when you have UDFA and low round draft picks beating out 2nd rounds picks on the regular.

B. Johnson 2nd beat out Givens 7th round.
M. Hill 2nd beat out by M. Wright UDFA
Chad Jackson 2nd beat out by Jab Street FA.
A Klemm. Beatout by Joe A.

I'm not sure how you can compare Bethel Johnson to David Givens when they are different types of receivers. Johnson was supposed to be able to stretch the field. Givens was a possession type receiver who excelled at the underneath routes.

Marquise Hill wasn't beaten out by Mike Wright. They played different positions. Hill at DE. Wright at NT. Also, Wright brought some diversity in that he also played on special teams.

Chad Jackson got beat out by a former 2nd round pick in Jabar Gaffney.

Adrian Klemm played tackle. Joe Andruzzi played guard. Klemm was the starting tackle coming out of camp several times, but got injured.



You do realize that those 3 draft picks you are talking about occured over a 5 year time span, yes? Belichick has spent 9 picks over a 9 year period on TEs. Not sure how you can consider that a LOT.

Your kidding right? It worked out so well that they went to the spread. Signed some great WR's. Would you be upset if the Pats did not resign Watson? I wouldn't.
I rather see the wealth spread around. 3-4 is your core D, pats always have injuries. Why not use one of those picks on the next great LB or DB.

You really don't follow this team as well as you think you do. The Patriots moved from the 2 TE set to the spread for a variety of reasons. One was an attempt to give Maroney more running room, they they seem intent on slamming him into the line. Another was because they didn't have the blocking TE they had in Graham anymore. Kyle Brady was a flop, unfortunately, who actually left the team at one point last year and was injured much of the time. So, its kind of hard to run the 2 TE set when you don't have TEs capable of blocking effectively. Also, they had added Stallworth and Welker and didn't add Moss until the draft. Who knows what they would have run if the Pats hadn't gotten Moss.

As for using "one of those picks on the next great LB or DB" again, you need to understand the Patriots drafting philosophy. You need to understand that they don't use the draft agencies that are out there. They use their own scouting personnel. They have their own rating system. And they draft based on value and not just need or just BPA. And the wildcard is that you never know what is going to happen. Jackson looked to be the better WR from his draft. Yet he flopped here.

He could have been great for all you know. We will never know.

And he could have flopped and been out of football by now. Like you said, we'll never know.

I am talking aout LBs not D-linemen. You have to admit that they have had some great LBs in that System that produced Vrable. They signed Scott the DB and they Townsend in for a vist and I think they offered him a contract, but he went back to Pitt.

So I think the FO keeps and eye out on potential FA from that system.

The fact that you think I am talking about just the linemen when I talk about the difference between the Pittsburgh 3-4 and the Pats 3-4 shows that you don't understand the defense much at all. Vrabel wasn't a LB in the Steelers system. He was actually playing DE is sub-sets and not getting time.

So the Patriots signed Chad Scott and looked at Townsend. They are DBs and the Pats play a lot of zone coverage.

The Pats review all of the free agents. They see who has done well against them and whether they can bring something to the Pats. Its why they went out and got Wes Welker.


As for what the Patriots should have done with the draft, you don't seem to understand that the Patriots use their own scouting to set their draft boards. At BEST, all the internet sites should be used as a loose guideline as to whether or not the Pats will like the player. The Patriots also draft personel based on their criteria of VALUE. Not based strictly on need and not based on best player available.

Everyone and their sister knew they were going to draft Mayo. Michael Hollie called the day before the draft. All the guys at weei knew who they were going to draft.

Then I guess it will be a surprise to you to know that Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie was also on their list to pick in the 1st round and that the Pats would have taken him if Mayo wasn't available.

No one can KNOW with 100% certainty who is going to be the person taken beyond the 1st overall. Surprises happen all the time. Donte Whitner being drafted by Buffalo a few years ago at #9. No one knew that. There was talk of Mayo and there was talk of the Pats dropping back farther in the 1st round than they did.

I know they look towards value. I think value is just coach speak. All coaches have their systems. A highly rated 225 LB that still on the board and the value is great, I don't see the pats drafting that player.

If he's the highest value player on their board, why not? Particularly if they have in mind to move him to SS or to have him be a special teams ace?

Speaking of value. was Dan Klecko better value than Koppen and Samuels? Was drafted higher.

Clearly, at the time, the Patriots felt that Klecko offered slightly higher value than Samuel (only 3 picks apart) and Koppen. This goes back to the draft being a crap shoot and you never know exactly what you are going to get. Thank you for proving my point for me.

I don't put this on Guyton, like you said it was a great throw.

Yet you said that none of the team was set and ready for the play. And admitting that it was a great throw suggests that it didn't matter if the rest of the team was set.

The point in the game where players and coaches are confused, there should have been a time out. Pats were in a shoot out and needed to try to hold them to a FG. Call time out, get your best players on the field and get the best play called.

I think some of the confusion was Pees was up in the coaches box for the 1st time

Again, I wouldn't say bad coaching as much as just a series of mistakes. And we don't know if BB tried to get a Time Out in since he'd have to run a bit to get to an official. Also, you have to give Pennington credit for seeing that the Pats weren't set and rushing the snap.

 

[DaBruinz]

Hobbs just does not have the ball skills they other 2 had. The other 2 got paid alot of money so there is ton of talent there. Any WR that has height and speed will have a field day with Hobbs. The second half of last year Hobbs got beat like a drum. After the Red Skins game, he gave up a long TD in every game.

We'll have to disagree here. I think that Hobbs does have ball skills and just isn't able to use them to attack the ball because he's being asked to play the WR instead of the ball.

You need to go back and review your statement about Hobbs because its just not true. In particular, check the Buffalo, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NY Jets, and Miami games.

I think you should read the article by Ron Borges when he was with weei. Talks about the Pats D and he makes some great points. Too much old and too much young and no middle. That is my whole point to my argument. They did not take care of the middle. You have a great football writer when he wants to be, taking up my argument.

Borges has never been a great football writer. He's been mediocre when he wasn't blatantly attacking Belichick. Also, you and he would be wrong about there being no middle in terms of the ages of the players. Ty Warren, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, James Sanders, Pierre Woods are all players in the middle (and I know I didn't list them all).

As has been pointed out many times to people, there are only so many roster slots and there is only so much talent available. Its impossible to have outstanding players at every position and outstanding players waiting to come in off the bench. When a team has its depth tested the way the Patriots are having theirs tested, there are parts that aren't going to work as well because they don't have the experience. That's just a fact of life.

I was talking about Maroney, not Faulk

I know exactly who you were talking about. Its why I pointed out Faulk's injury past and what people said about him. Also, did you ever stop to think that maybe the doctors didn't do an adequate job on his shoulder the first time and that's why it was re-injured?

People like yourself love to call a guy GLASS because he suffers a catastrophic injury that doesn't heal properly and gets re-injured. Chad Pennington was injury prone early in his career. He got over it. Kevin Faulk is another player. It happens. And sometimes they never get over it, mentally. Ala Eugene Wilson. He never recovered, mentally, from breaking his arm in the SB. And it showed in his play.

 

[DaBruinz]

Your put names up, not production. Willie was way better of a player than Colvin was. Production level drop off.

I put up names because those are the people who replaced the ones you mentioned. You never replace a player 1 for 1. Other players end up stepping up and picking up the slack. Also, Colvin was a better player than McGinest was prior to Colvin getting injured.

Samuels has 2 good years here, Law had several good years here. Law ten times better tackler and better at attacking the ball and better against the run. Overall better player. Samuel was never brought in here to replace Ty Law. Law got himself off the team becasue he would not redue his deal. Samuel to replace Pool I agree, not Law.

Its Samuel not Samuels. And he could have had more than 2 good years with the Patriots had he stayed longer. Yes, Law was a better tackler and not by much. And you seriously over-rate Law's ability against the run. Samuel was brought in to be a starting CB. He ended up replacing Law at the LCB position.

Wilson replaced Milloy, the plan was for Harrison and Milloy to line up next to each other. Would not redue his deal, cut a him a week before the opener. So I don't think he was brought into replace Milloy.

Harrison had always been a Strong Safety. Lining him up at FS was playing him out of position. Wilson was brought in to be a CB. He was thrust into the FS role because Antwan Harris proved during the Buffalo game that he couldn't handle it.

I do think your a little off with the TE postion. Pats were drafting for need not value. They wanted to run a 2 TE O. That is why they drafted all those TE. I think in the 3-4 you have more players at that postion that you play in a 2 TE O. More players drafted for a 2 person postion than 4 person postion.

I am not off on the TE position. The Pats didn't need to draft Graham and they didn't need to draft Watson. You need to go back and review when they drafted "all of those TEs" because it wasn't done in a clump. Its been done over the entire time that BB has been in NE. And he hasn't drafted a TE in the last 2 year. And the TE position has been very weak in those two drafts.

The TE position is a 3 person position, not a 2 person position. And your attempt to over-simplify the LB postion by calling it a 4 person position is sad. To effectively run the 3-4, you need to have 6 LBs, 3 ILB and 3 OLBs, capable of starting. Also, BB's philosophy previously, had been to bring in veterans who could adapt to the system. Its why he brought in Cox, Phifer, and Vrabel. Yes, he attempted it with Beisel and Brown, but he also didn't think that those two would be the starters because they were signed prior to Johnson's abrupt retirement.

On Dansby, for all you know he could have been great. I think he was a franchised player and most likely will be again. Who would you take today, Watson or Dansby?

Who I take today doesn't matter. Its who provides the greater perceived value on draft day. The Patriots clearly felt that Watson did. They could have had no idea that Watson would hold out and then would be injured for the season. Hindsight being 20/20 is all well and good, but it doesn't mean a damn thing.

On the draft, I did my home work.

Pats draft mostly 4 year players.

Common thing I see with most of the Pats drafted players, they have all played in the Senior Bowl.

Ty Warren, Mankins, Graham, Watson, Merriweather, Guyton the other RT from cal, can't remember his name. There are several other Pats players who have played in that game. I think the Pats really use that game to gage talent.

The Pats also get information from BBs friends who are coaches at the college level. Guys like Kirk Ferentz, Saban, Meyer, etc. I did a review and found that many of the players, though not all, had connections to the coaches in the college ranks that BB is friends with.

Another case that value is coach speak. Holmgren was coaching Graham in the senior bowl and made it be known that he was going to draft him. Pats traded up over Sehawks and drafted Graham.

So, it wasn't that the Patriots had Graham as their top value, they did it just to draft him so the Seahawks couldn't? You can't be serious, can you?

 

[DaBruinz]

It had everything to do with the cap and they were over. They needed to be under before the 1st week of the season. He was given a bad deal by Bobby Greir and he was over paid. That is also why Ty Law left becasuse he and Milloy have the same agent and they would not budge on their contracts. Both were getting huge money and those were the best contracts at the time to get savings from.

The Pats were over the salary cap in 2003 prior to the start of the season because they had numerous injured players that they put on the IR that put them more than 2 million over the cap. The Pats had already restructured the likes of McGinest, Brady and Ted Johnson. The Pats weren't going to cut anyone who had already restructured because its bad business. They had attempted to get Law to restructure and he refused. That is when they approached Milloy. It wasn't so much that he was over-paid, but because his was the only contract left that they could restructure and get below the cap with only one roster move.