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Can D be turned around?


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Yeah, I wish Front Office had done as well as the all the other teams that have won more regular season games, more playoff games and more SB's than our team has since 2000 when Belichick and Brady arrived. Please list all those teams and organizations so we can learn from them.

1st off pal! I was talking about the draft of late. And I think Parcells gave BB a pretty good core of players on D to work with. And I believe that core of players won the 1st SB along with Brady. That core of players set this thing in motion. I think you would be a fool to over look that. Also let me remind you that core of players also played in another SB.

I Believe that Ty Law a Parcells draft pick won them an AFCCG almost by himself. Also score that huge TD in Rams SB.

I think Willie Mac another Parcells pick is the all time leader in sacks in post season.

I think Ted Johnson another Parcells pick came up with a huge tackle in a goal line stance for Pitt in AFCCG. Pitt sttled for three.

I think Troy Borwn another Parcells pick has done alright with the Pats would you not agree?

I think Curtis Martin when he was here was pretty good don't you think? Another HOF player.

I think Teddy B. another Parcells pick has been pretty solid here, don't you agree.

Adam V. another Parcells guy had some good kicks in the snow and some SBs wouldn't you agree?

Besides the D-line, has the FO drafted awell on D as it did when parcells was here?

Lets be real here. Did the FO really believe they were drafting a HOF player in the 6th round? Don't think so. He makes this team go.

I just don't think coaching on the D is as close as it was when Romeo was here. I think he had alot to do with those SB.

I think the lack of play makers on the D has cost the Pats 2 more SB.
 
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our corners are OK, and in the pats, that OK is fine...

we need an SS to complement meriweather, and with meri's capabilities...which increase every game, hes having a terrific season

we also need, as others have noted, a pass rush much more....where has green been this season?
 
1) I have nothing but good things to say abour Parcells and his Front Office. As I indicated in my post, we are talking about 2000 -2008, the Belichick years.

2) You are entitled to your opinion that this Fron Office failed in its drafting and free agent transactions. If you believe that success of the past nine years is due only to Parcell players, I will need to agree to disagree.

3) If you believe that the team is a bunch of scrubs, you're entitled to your opinion. I believe that Bruschi is the only Parcells player left. All that we have is from the Belichick era. I think that we have an awesome offense (with or without Brady). I think the defense is fine and improving.

I think that our DL is one of the best (and I know that many disagree). There just isn't much better than Seymour-Wilfork-Warren out there.

I know many don't like our linebackers. They wanted to get younger. Well we have two rookies getting almost all the reps inside. Ask Manning what he thinks of our linebackers. They too are among the best out there. We ARE getting younger. We have a solid blend of veterans and youngsters.

And then comes the secondary. I agree that we shouldn't have gotten rid of Milloy, but Harrison was a pretty good replacement! I would not have allowed Law to walk. In general, I think the Front Office did fine. Meriweather was a pretty good pick! We do know how to fill in with free agents. Every position can't be filled with top free agents or top draft choices. The Front Office has chosen to use top picks for our DL line, for offensive linemen and for a running back. They have used 2nd's and 4th's for corners. Was Samuel a failure? Would you have paid him $8M. I wouldn't have.
===================================

BOTTOM LINE
All teams have their ups and downs. This team has had the best record in the regular season, in the playoffs and in SB over the past eight and 1/2 seasons. We are currently in the playoff mix. Do you really believe that it was a Front Office FAILURE that the team went 16-0 in the regular season last year, with almost ZERO contributions from Parcell holdovers????? Do you really think it is a Front Office FAILURE that we are 7-4 after losing to injury our HOF QB, all three of our RB's, and our starting SS for entire year????? And how many injuries have we had in the defensive backfield and still we are in the playoff hunt??????


1st off pal! I was talking about the draft of late. And I think Parcells gave BB a pretty good core of players on D to work with. And I believe that core of players won the 1st SB along with Brady. That core of players set this thing in motion. I think you would be a fool to over look that. Also let me remind you that core of players also played in another SB.

I Believe that Ty Law a Parcells draft pick won them an AFCCG almost by himself. Also score that huge TD in Rams SB.

I think Willie Mac another Parcells pick is the all time leader in sacks in post season.

I think Ted Johnson another Parcells pick came up with a huge tackle in a goal line stance for Pitt in AFCCG. Pitt sttled for three.

I think Troy Borwn another Parcells pick has done alright with the Pats would you not agree?

I think Curtis Martin when he was here was pretty good don't you think? Another HOF player.

I think Teddy B. another Parcells pick has been pretty solid here, don't you agree.

Adam V. another Parcells guy had some good kicks in the snow and some SBs wouldn't you agree?

Besides the D-line, has the FO drafted awell on D as it did when parcells was here?

Lets be real here. Did the FO really believe they were drafting a HOF player in the 6th round? Don't think so. He makes this team go.

I just don't think coaching on the D is as close as it was when Romeo was here. I think he had alot to do with those SB.

I think the lack of play makers on the D has cost the Pats 2 more SB.
 
Are you suggesting that they get turned around from the top 1/3 of defenses (where they are) to the bottom 1/3 of defenses? Is the kind of turn around that you require?

Please! Are you watching the games? Did you watch two weeks in a row, while little known WRs and TEs were getting completions all over the field. I know the D looked good earlier, but I'm not talking about their league average based on earlier. I guess you're happy with almost 800 total yards against in the last two games, 7 TDs against the D, along with 2 FGs over the last two games, and an incredible 10 3rd down conversions against the D in the last two games. No your right, there is no need to turn things around. Yep, they're in the top 1/3 in the league, so everything is rosey on defense.

It's late November, and they now have 6 defensive players on injured reserve, including Rodney Harrison. They have two out of three down linemen playing with injuries (Warren and Seymour). They have several others out hurt, including their sack leader (Thomas).

All I know is the worse 3rd Down Conversion Offense in the NFL was coverting 3rd downs at will against them, just like the Jets converted a 3rd and 15 and others against them the game before.

There are a bunch of good responses, with blinders off. Thanks for those.
 
Gotta agree with the last Poster our D made Pennington looked like Joe Montana yesterday. Pennington have never looked that good against us even when he was with the Jets. This D needs a Pass Rush in the worst way.
 
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It's pretty simple, it's called a pass rush.

We can't generate pressure from the 4 guys we are sending, yes that's you Mike Vrable, you've lost a step. So what's the next alternative if you can't generate a pass rush with the core-4, simple, it's called getting creative and designing some disguised blitzes off the edge with a CB on either side or zone blitzes with the safties and LB's.

For the strangest reason, BB, Pees and co keep getting bashed over the head with these 3rd and longs. SEND THE HOUSE, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE !!!!!!!!!!!!! QB's are sitting back there finding wide open WR's on 3rd and longs because they're having cake and ice cream back there. C'mon Pees, let's start getting creative and get back to the old Patriot defenses who used to have those creative blitzes.


:ditto: FRITZ
 
Good question. Personally, I'm not getting my expectations up from what they were when Brady went down. I grieved and then resigned to the fact that I would be happy to see them compete in every game, get better, and go 10-6 to make the playoffs. Now, I had no idea(like most) that Cassel would be this good and think he could actually perform well in the playoffs, but the D(mostly the secondary) is this suspect. Of course all the injuries they've had doesn't help. That being said, sometimes all they need is a few veterans to lead by example and start playing with a huge chip on their shoulders like in the good ole days(01,03,04):D!! I've raised my hopes and expectations to 11-5 and a playoff berth. From that point, I'm not sold on the Jets, and I think the AFC is as much of an open field in a long time.
 
I did see Woods make a nice pass rushing move coming off the right edge as he dipped his shoulder under the tackle.
 
I did see Woods make a nice pass rushing move coming off the right edge as he dipped his shoulder under the tackle.


Come on man, Long was hurt and could not move.
 
Come on man, Long was hurt and could not move.

That's what they must say about our QB situation:rolleyes:

Long was out at that point.

but go on... be a Nelly Negative
 
actually, special teams and a coin flip lost the pats game to the jets

Right, the defense had nothing to do with it. I'm sure that's what Belichick told the team in the postmortem that Tuesday. :D
 
I think it is a lack of talent with DB's and coaching and front office.

I'll start with the front office. Team has failed to replace key players like Ted Johnson, Willie Mac, Ty Law, Milloy. All those guys were 1st day picks in the draft. They tried to replace them with all second day picks and bad FA singings. Pats had three undrafted LB's on the field the other day. Guyton, Woods and Redd. There might be some upside, but you see the impact of a day 1 pick in Mayo.

I also believe that Pats wasted way too many draft picks when they tried to run a 2 TE O. Two #1s and a 3rd with some where in the area of 8 draft picks spent on the TE postion. Way too much!

How about K. Dansby instead of Watson. Dansby went one pick after.

Running a 3-4, Pats should have used 8 draft picks on LBS and DBS. I looked to the Steelers and the turn over they have had with their system. Look at the OLB postion, it started with Llyod, Chad Brown, Gildon, Porter and now Harrison. I am leaving out all the turn over at ILB and the other OLB postion.

I go with some bad coaching during the game. On the Ricky Williams TD, the team was confused. Players were running on and off the field. They were no even set. Why not call a timeout and get the right people on the field.

3rd and long and they play coverage for a team that can not play coverage. Why not go after him, force him to get rid of it. IE 3rd and long Jets game.

I just don't think they have the talent at the DB postion. Hobbs does not attack the ball, he plays the WR. Samuel and Law both could attack the ball, I don't see this as part of Hobbs game. Hobbs plays anyone with speed and height, its all over for him. He got his but handed to him in the Rams game.

I will say that Merriweather has been making some nice hits out there the last few weeks. I know that 3-15 hurt bad. Decked Wayne a couple of times in the Colts game. Had some nice hits in the game the other day. I think once he gets it, he will be really good.

BB please use this draft for the D. Also try to find a WR late in the draft IE David Givens and please try to find a RB that is not made out of glass.

I agree with every word in this post.

As I stated in the "Secondary" thread, even if we suffered zero injuries to our DBackfield, our talent level there would be adequate, but not outstanding.

Hobbs, Wheatley, Webster, O'Neal & Bryant/LSanders would have been the best-case scenario at CB; at Safety, it would have been Harrison, Meriweather, JSanders, TWilliams & LSanders/Ventrone. Not exactly 2003, but probably good enough.

But now Wheatley, Bryant, Harrison & TWilliams have been replaced with Wilhite, Richardson, Spann, and S/WRs Slater & Ventrone. Nobody has replaced SSs Rodney & Tank - Lil' Jimmy Sanders doesn't count; and not one of the new CBs has come close to replacing A$ante, or Gay, or even Hank the Man Poteat.

At OLB, Vrabel is finished as a pass-rusher to be feared, or maybe even respected. Woods lacks explosiveness, a closing burst, and instincts. If you believe in God, then pray to Him that Vince Redd can contribute at his position as much as Guyton & Mayo have contributed at theirs. And where would our ILBs be without those 2? Up Shyte Creek, that's where. Save a prayer for a speedy recovery by AT, while you're at it.

The question was: can our Defense be turned around? My answer: No. In fact, it's getting worse, not better. And except for AT - maybe, there is no help on the horizon, only storm clouds.
 
That's what they must say about our QB situation:rolleyes:

Long was out at that point.

but go on... be a Nelly Negative

He came back in the game and was at LT. Were Long and Woods team mates at Michigan?

I am not a Big-10 fan, but they have put out 2 studs in Joe Thoms and now Jake Long.
 
I think it is a lack of talent with DB's and coaching and front office.

I'll start with the front office. Team has failed to replace key players like Ted Johnson, Willie Mac, Ty Law, Milloy. All those guys were 1st day picks in the draft. They tried to replace them with all second day picks and bad FA singings. Pats had three undrafted LB's on the field the other day. Guyton, Woods and Redd. There might be some upside, but you see the impact of a day 1 pick in Mayo.

There is so much wrong with your line of thought I don't know where to start.

First of all, the draft is a crap shoot. Secondly, Willie McGinest HAS been replaced. First it was by Rosie Colvin and then by Adalius Thomas. Milloy was replaced by Rodney Harrison. Meriweather has since been drafted.

The Patriots also drafted Terence Wheatley, whom they believe will be a starting CB. The Pats, as is their want, were bringing Wheatley along slowly.

Another thing, McGinest, Johnson, Milloy, and Law were all drafted prior to Belichick getting to New England.

Having 3 UDFAs on the field means nothing. I have news for you, some of the best players in the league are UDFA. Adam Vinatieri, Kurt Warner, etc, etc.

I also believe that Pats wasted way too many draft picks when they tried to run a 2 TE O. Two #1s and a 3rd with some where in the area of 8 draft picks spent on the TE postion. Way too much!

How about K. Dansby instead of Watson. Dansby went one pick after.

You do realize that those 3 draft picks you are talking about occured over a 5 year time span, yes? Belichick has spent 9 picks over a 9 year period on TEs. Not sure how you can consider that a LOT.

How do you know that Dansby would have accelled in the Patriots system and under Belichick?

Running a 3-4, Pats should have used 8 draft picks on LBS and DBS. I looked to the Steelers and the turn over they have had with their system. Look at the OLB postion, it started with Llyod, Chad Brown, Gildon, Porter and now Harrison. I am leaving out all the turn over at ILB and the other OLB postion.

First of all, the Steelers 3-4 system is different than the Patriots. The system the Steelers play is a one gap system. The one the Pats play is a 2 Gap system.

As for what the Patriots should have done with the draft, you don't seem to understand that the Patriots use their own scouting to set their draft boards. At BEST, all the internet sites should be used as a loose guideline as to whether or not the Pats will like the player. The Patriots also draft personel based on their criteria of VALUE. Not based strictly on need and not based on best player available.

I go with some bad coaching during the game. On the Ricky Williams TD, the team was confused. Players were running on and off the field. They were no even set. Why not call a timeout and get the right people on the field.

Guyton was on his man. It was a very good throw on a fade route. Can't you stop and give Pennington creditr for that?

That being said, anyone on the Pats defense could have called the time out. Or any of the coaches. I think its overboard to call it "bad coaching" when it really was just a simple mistake.

3rd and long and they play coverage for a team that can not play coverage. Why not go after him, force him to get rid of it. IE 3rd and long Jets game.

This is actually where I would have thought you'd say there was bad coaching because the Patriots stayed with their base 3-4 and didn't move in any sub packages. But, then the Nickel package got burned repeatedly against the Jets.


I just don't think they have the talent at the DB postion. Hobbs does not attack the ball, he plays the WR. Samuel and Law both could attack the ball, I don't see this as part of Hobbs game. Hobbs plays anyone with speed and height, its all over for him. He got his but handed to him in the Rams game.

I think that your analysis is lacking. Hobbs plays the WR more than the ball because, in my opinion, the Pats don't currently have the cohesion amongst the secondary for them to gamble on attacking the ball. The flip side that you seem to forget is that Samuel was a mediocre tackler and he got burned plenty.

I will say that Merriweather has been making some nice hits out there the last few weeks. I know that 3-15 hurt bad. Decked Wayne a couple of times in the Colts game. Had some nice hits in the game the other day. I think once he gets it, he will be really good.

BB please use this draft for the D. Also try to find a WR late in the draft IE David Givens and please try to find a RB that is not made out of glass.

I remember Kevin Faulk being termed as "made of glass." He's turned into one of the best 3rd down backs and all-around weapons in the league.
 
1st off pal! I was talking about the draft of late. And I think Parcells gave BB a pretty good core of players on D to work with. And I believe that core of players won the 1st SB along with Brady. That core of players set this thing in motion. I think you would be a fool to over look that. Also let me remind you that core of players also played in another SB.

For someone claiming to know so much about respect, you sure as hell don't show it to people in your responses. Nothing about Mgteich's response to you was disrespectful, yet you start right off with disrespecting him. Typical hypocrite.


I Believe that Ty Law a Parcells draft pick won them an AFCCG almost by himself. Also score that huge TD in Rams SB.

I think Willie Mac another Parcells pick is the all time leader in sacks in post season.

I think Ted Johnson another Parcells pick came up with a huge tackle in a goal line stance for Pitt in AFCCG. Pitt sttled for three.

I think Troy Borwn another Parcells pick has done alright with the Pats would you not agree?

I think Curtis Martin when he was here was pretty good don't you think? Another HOF player.

I think Teddy B. another Parcells pick has been pretty solid here, don't you agree.

Adam V. another Parcells guy had some good kicks in the snow and some SBs wouldn't you agree?

Besides the D-line, has the FO drafted awell on D as it did when parcells was here?

Parcells did so well that he got the team to ONE SuperBowl and bailed on them prior to the game being played..

Also, Vinatieri was not a Parcells draftee. He was a UDFA. As for Troy Brown, it was Belichick who got Brown back on the team after Brown was cut in training camp.



Lets be real here. Did the FO really believe they were drafting a HOF player in the 6th round? Don't think so. He makes this team go.

I just don't think coaching on the D is as close as it was when Romeo was here. I think he had alot to do with those SB.

I think the lack of play makers on the D has cost the Pats 2 more SB.

The Patriots knew they were getting a very good QB in the 6th round. If you'd read Patriots Reign, you'd know that. And, clearly, its not just Brady that makes this team go.

The Patriots didn't have as many "play-makers" on defense as you'd like to believe, particularly in the 2004 SB win.

The Patriots have been trying to replace the parts they have been loosing. But there are only so many draft picks and so many players you can have on your team.
 
Rosie Colvin didn't replace McGinest. He was never the same after his injury.

ADT hasn't been close to what McGinest was for us, we never blitz him anyway.
 
Come on man, Long was hurt and could not move.


The move Woods made was early in the game. Long wasn't hurt until later.
 
Rosie Colvin didn't replace McGinest. He was never the same after his injury.

ADT hasn't been close to what McGinest was for us, we never blitz him anyway.

Rosie Colvin was brought in to replace McGinest. The only reason that Colvin didn't replace McGinest was because he got injured in his 2nd game with the Pats.

McGinest never blitzed. He was either rushing the passer or dropping into coverage, though primarily pass rushing. Not Blitzing.

Thomas started off at ILB last year and then had to learn OLB when Colvin went down. This year's defense has been pretty vanilla, overall. Mainly due to the injuries they've suffered.
 
Rosie Colvin was brought in to replace McGinest. The only reason that Colvin didn't replace McGinest was because he got injured in his 2nd game with the Pats.

McGinest never blitzed. He was either rushing the passer or dropping into coverage, though primarily pass rushing. Not Blitzing.

Thomas started off at ILB last year and then had to learn OLB when Colvin went down. This year's defense has been pretty vanilla, overall. Mainly due to the injuries they've suffered.

You repeated what I said about Colvin.

McGinest provided a better rush.
 
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