Best article from Reiss in quite a while

[RobertWeathers]

neither did pryor.....brace was simply not ready for the NFL in any capacity

Agreed. Last year proved that. Although I'd contend that he settled down and played decent vs Buffalo.

I think there is some hope held out that a year of OTA's might do something for him, but the point was about who was still on the board at the time along with what some of the pats needs were.....to use a 2nd rounder on a guy like brace when you already had wilfork was a waste........even more so if the pats do extend wilfork.

Hindsight, tanked. VW can still walk and play somewhere else next year. Pretty confident that the Pats looked at 2010 DTs and thought that Brace projected well. Clearly, Prior transfered much quicker to the pro game than Brace but to gauge which player has a higher upside is still undetermined.

I mean Jamal williams goes down for the chargers and everyone was convinced their defense would be one big hole.....but then they dragged Ian Scott out from under some rock and he did fairly well.......so the selection of brace seems frivolous at best

History will prove if Brace is a boom or a bust but to state that he was a frivolus pick is off-base IMO. I'm pretty sure BB knew Seymour was not long for this world w/ the Pats and he drafted accordingly.

Can't compare Ian Scott to anyone in this system. Hes a vet.

 

[The Dynasty]

It has a little to do with it since they have to win a spot on the team. You don't draft 7 guys on day 2 and keep them all unless you have a bad team.

I never said that they should have kept them all, but not to get production from any of them is a sign of a weak draft player selection wise. You cannot deny this fact.

Who could they have been, at the time, that would have made the team and taken a roster spot. Sure they had a large failure rate and probably could have kept 1 or 2 contributors if they drafted differently, but it is one year. It's relatively pointless to pick day-2 draft players from 1 year and start nitpicking it. They body of work as a whole has been a success, and with any long-term success you have patches of ugly failures and patches of extraordinary success mixed in.

I am not nitpicking one draft. Their drafting as a whole hasnt been that great the past few years, especially in the later rounds. 2008 they didnt really draft any impact players on day 2 as well Crable, O'Connell, Wilhite, Slater and Ruud. Granted Crable has been injured but none of those guys have made an impact. Wilhite has been a bust in my opinion, if our secondary wasnt so weak he would not be seeing any playing time. 2006 was also a bad day 2 draft with the exception of Gostkowski. 2006 saw David Thomas, Garrett Mills, Gostkowski, Ryan O'Callaghan, Jeremy Mincey, Dan Stevenson, Le Kevin Smith and Willie Andrews. So from 2006-2008 the only impact player drafted on day 2 has been Gostkowski. Wilhite and Thomas can be debatable but Thomas did nothing in NE and Wilhite hasnt been that great. Theres 3 drafts in a row that didnt bring much draft production from its later rounds.

OK so they didn't do the absolute best thing possible by drafting players in a bad draft in 2007. I'm not sure the point of nitpicking that is. Everyone makes mistakes, but to nitpick all the specific mistakes is to expect or attempt to create perfection which is impossible. Overall, not getting a contributor from the 2007 day2 draft picks isn't a huge problem. They were amazing in 2007, dangerous in 2008, and 2009 had a huge turnover that no day-2 contributor from 2007 was going to magically cure.

Not getting a day 2 contributor really isnt too big of an issue if it just happened in one year, but when you have 3 drafts and only draft 1 impact player in the 2nd day for all 3 years combined you have a problem. I am not saying that this is the sole reason why the Patriots havent enjoyed success in the past few years, but it is something that should not be ignored. I will say that the 2009 draft was a step in the right direction.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Agreed. Last year proved that. Although I'd contend that he settled down and played decent vs Buffalo. .

not what I saw.....some nobody (bills C) moved brace around single-handedly

Hindsight, tanked. VW can still walk and play somewhere else next year. Pretty confident that the Pats looked at 2010 DTs and thought that Brace projected well. Clearly, Prior transfered much quicker to the pro game than Brace but to gauge which player has a higher upside is still undetermined.
.

alot of speculation on your part there.......still think brace was a bad choice

History will prove if Brace is a boom or a bust but to state that he was a frivolus pick is off-base IMO. I'm pretty sure BB knew Seymour was not long for this world w/ the Pats and he drafted accordingly.

Can't compare Ian Scott to anyone in this system. Hes a vet.

no its not frivolous with the obvious guys who were available at the moment and the needs they filled.....the LB's aren't just going to appear out of nowhere......the pats have made do in a variety of way at NT getting guys like washington and traylor....at the same time, LB's have been a much tougher nut to crack for the pats....but to keep ignoring it ain't going to solve anything

 

[RobertWeathers]

the pats have made do in a variety of way at NT getting guys like washington and traylor....at the same time, LB's have been a much tougher nut to crack for the pats....but to keep ignoring it ain't going to solve anything

Agreed on LBs...They need high-end talent there.

Don't agree on the NTs. Washington and Traylor were solid vets and as you know in a 3-4 alignment are pretty important. If BB felt any wide-body could make due he would have played Brace more or kept Sands. Can't be discounted IMO...

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Slater has been a solid special teams player. Mayo was the DROY. Wheatley had become a starter in year one, before becoming injured again. Wilhite is an NFL caliber nickel back that the team got in the 4th round. Crable, whom I was wary about from the beginning,
hasn't been able to stay healthy.

Regardless of what happens with Wheatley and Crable, that 2008 draft has netted, at the very least, a DROY who was a star in the making prior to last year's injury, an NFL level nickel cornerback who's been pressed into a starting role, and a tremendous special teams player. Calling that draft pathetic says a lot more about the people complaining than it does about the draft itself.

Now, if you'd just hung your hat on wondering what the hell Belichick was thinking when he pissed away a 3rd round draft pick on a quarterback instead of bagging on the entire draft, I'd have been with you on that.

I have a problem with the first few picks of the draft (Mayo, Wheatley, Crable and O'Connel).

Mayo - He tackles well, but I just don't see the impact a #10 pick in the draft should bring. Another guy who does exactly what Mayo does went in round 2 named Curtis Lofton. Their almost identical in size.

Back on draft day, I had a hard time believing that the Lions were going to take Mayo had the Pats not taken him at the #10 spot. Looking back at it now, I think the Pats got baited into taking him too early.

Wheatley - He's a lot like Wihilte (can run with WR's but can't do anything after that). I never had expectations for Whilite and although he's pretty bad, at least he actually plays. When this pick came up, I thought for sure they were going to take Terrell Thomas.

Crable - Worthless and firmly believe that Pats have had enough. I'd be shocked if he makes the team this season.

O'Connel - Might be the #1 WTF? pick of the BB era with Ben Watson coming in a close second when they had already drafted Daniel Graham 2 years earlier. When this pick came up, I was hoping they would've taken Manningham. He should would look good in a Pats uniform right now.

 

[Wretch]

I stand by my statement....feel free to refute....otherwise, you are wasting words

Hyperbole it is then.

 

[Deus Irae]

I have a problem with the first few picks of the draft (Mayo, Wheatley, Crable and O'Connel).

Mayo - He tackles well, but I just don't see the impact a #10 pick in the draft should bring. Another guy who does exactly what Mayo does went in round 2 named Curtis Lofton. Their almost identical in size.

Back on draft day, I had a hard time believing that the Lions were going to take Mayo had the Pats not taken him at the #10 spot. Looking back at it now, I think the Pats got baited into taking him too early.

Oh, please. I'm reasonably certain that winning DROY is a pretty solid way for a #10 pick in the draft to go. I wanted Clady over Mayo, but I'm not about to bash Mayo just because my preference wasn't chosen. Mayo was an excellent player as a rookie, and I expect he'll be an excellent player in year 3. He was injured last season, and it didn't look as if he ever got over the knee sprain.

Wheatley - He's a lot like Wihilte (can run with WR's but can't do anything after that). I never had expectations for Whilite and although he's pretty bad, at least he actually plays. When this pick came up, I thought for sure they were going to take Terrell Thomas.

Nothing wrong with the Wheatley pick. The team needed corners. The guy got hurt. It happens. What's more concerning is his lack of field time last season. Unfortunately for the fans, we have no idea of what was going on that caused the team to drop him from #2 last year to #5 this season.

Crable - Worthless and firmly believe that Pats have had enough. I'd be shocked if he makes the team this season.

As I noted, I was wary of the pick. I don't like to see defensive players who are light in the seat, and I don't like to see any front 7 player with basketball calves. I'd expect that this is the time to fish or cut bait.

O'Connel - Might be the #1 WTF? pick of the BB era with Ben Watson coming in a close second when they had already drafted Daniel Graham 2 years earlier. When this pick came up, I was hoping they would've taken Manningham. He should would look good in a Pats uniform right now.

1.) Nothing wrong with the Watson pick. In fact, it was a solid choice.

2.) I hated the O'Connell pick when it was made. It's never made sense, give that Brady's age meant the kid would never be the Patriots starter, barring disaster, even if he panned out. Flipping a 3rd for the mere possibility of a 1st or 2nd years down the road is bad trading, and that's the best that could have been hoped for in the O'Connell scenario.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Hyperbole it is then.

whatever you need to tell yourself.....

 

[Wretch]

whatever you need to tell yourself.....

You claim the Pats are one of the worst day 2 drafting teams in the NFL. I ask you to prove it. All I am asking is what data, other than your opinion do you have to make the claim?

If you notice I haven't said once whether I agree or disagree with you only that I want proof of your statement in order to evaluate your post beside others. Your unwillingness to offer evidence leads me to believe you don't have any so your posts are worth the same as other unsubstantiated posts.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

You claim the Pats are one of the worst day 2 drafting teams in the NFL. I ask you to prove it. All I am asking is what data, other than your opinion do you have to make the claim?

If you notice I haven't said once whether I agree or disagree with you only that I want proof of your statement in order to evaluate your post beside others. Your unwillingness to offer evidence leads me to believe you don't have any so your posts are worth the same as other unsubstantiated posts.

You do know who your quoting right? He has no data to back it up. He just wants to keep posting that the Pats suck at drafting, and only about 3 people agree with him.

 

[Wretch]

You do know who your quoting right? He has no data to back it up. He just wants to keep posting that the Pats suck at drafting, and only about 3 people agree with him.

Got it now. Thanks.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Got it now. Thanks.

I just find the complaints about the drafting to be a little on the weak side. Especially coming a year after we had, imho, one of BBs best drafts. Sure there have been busts, but overall i've been ok with his drafts, with the exception of one ....though it could be argued that the team was loaded with talent, and had no room for those picks.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I just find the complaints about the drafting to be a little on the weak side. Especially coming a year after we had, imho, one of BBs best drafts. Sure there have been busts, but overall i've been ok with his drafts, with the exception of one ....though it could be argued that the team was loaded with talent, and had no room for those picks.

ok.....let me know what teams have been worse in day 2 over the last 5-6 years.....

and let me know what teams got less out of their 2nd round draft picks......ok?

they're not complaints....they're fact.....stop guzzling the kool-aid

loaded with 35 years and older LB's? LMFAO....you are blind

 

[tanked_as_usual]

You claim the Pats are one of the worst day 2 drafting teams in the NFL. I ask you to prove it. All I am asking is what data, other than your opinion do you have to make the claim?

If you notice I haven't said once whether I agree or disagree with you only that I want proof of your statement in order to evaluate your post beside others. Your unwillingness to offer evidence leads me to believe you don't have any so your posts are worth the same as other unsubstantiated posts.

I am saying they are........you tell me another team that is worse.....

the only thing that comes out of your useless mouth is 'hyperbole'

please....show me another team that is less productive in day 2 over the last 5-6 years

 

[tanked_as_usual]

You do know who your quoting right? He has no data to back it up. He just wants to keep posting that the Pats suck at drafting, and only about 3 people agree with him.

WTF do you know?

instead of refuting anything, you revert to your homer, kool-aid guzzling ways and come up with your own brand of stupidity.....

prove me wrong......at least I did enough legwork to qualify the statement

 

[Wretch]

I am saying they are........you tell me another team that is worse.....

the only thing that comes out of your useless mouth is 'hyperbole'

please....show me another team that is less productive in day 2 over the last 5-6 years

Judging from the amount of talent on their rosters: Detroit, and Oakland come to mind. Buffalo, Washington, Seattle, Cleveland, Denver, Tampa, KC, Bengals, Chicago, and the Rams are all teams that draft much worse than the Pats.

Ok now name the teams whose complete roster you would take over the Pats, maybe the Saints, Colts, GB, Vikes, Ravens, Steelers and Chargers?

Again I am have not said that I disagree with you I just want to see your evidence of the Pats lack of drafting prowess...other than having a top 10 roster in terms of overall talent.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Judging from the amount of talent on their rosters: Detroit, and Oakland come to mind. Buffalo, Washington, Seattle, Cleveland, Denver, Tampa, KC, Bengals, Chicago, and the Rams are all teams that draft much worse than the Pats.

Ok now name the teams whose complete roster you would take over the Pats, maybe the Saints, Colts, GB, Vikes, Ravens, Steelers and Chargers?

Again I am have not said that I disagree with you I just want to see your evidence of the Pats lack of drafting prowess...other than having a top 10 roster in terms of overall talent.

There you go with the kool-aid, Tanked is trying to enjoy his hangover and you're offering him 'bug juice' and bright sunlight instead of hair of the dog. Cruel you are sir!

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Judging from the amount of talent on their rosters: Detroit, and Oakland come to mind. Buffalo, Washington, Seattle, Cleveland, Denver, Tampa, KC, Bengals, Chicago, and the Rams are all teams that draft much worse than the Pats.

Ok now name the teams whose complete roster you would take over the Pats, maybe the Saints, Colts, GB, Vikes, Ravens, Steelers and Chargers?

Again I am have not said that I disagree with you I just want to see your evidence of the Pats lack of drafting prowess...other than having a top 10 roster in terms of overall talent.

if you subtract QB's from all rosters, I would probably take the rosters of 20-25 teams over the pats.......

you want me to provide facts to refute your hyperbole.......the pats are not a top 10 roster right now.....they have one starting LB and 1 starting DL. they have 1 starting WR and zero starting TE's.....their RB's are either old or not very good., their secondary?

the only positions with any kind of stability right now are OL and QB

as for my 4th round and later drafting claim from 2004-2008, they have 2 guys who have started.....ghostkowski and sanders........try to find a team that is worse......and don't tell me that the roster is so awesome.....it has had plenty of holes since 2005 and there have always been needs and players to fill them.

 

[The Dynasty]

I wouldnt say that the Pats 2nd day drafting is the worst in the league, but there have been some years and streches that it has been pretty bad. I will go back to 2004.

2004: Guss Scott, Dexter Reid, Cedrid Hobbs, P.K Sam, Christian Morton....0 impact players
2005: Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kazur, James Sanders, Ryan Claridge, Matt Cassel, Andy Stokes...4 impact players and 3 starters. Cant complain at all with this year
2006: David Thomas, Garrett Mills, Stephen Gotskoski, Ryan O'Callaghan, Jeremy Mincey, Dan Stevenson, Le Kevin Smith, Willie Andrews...1 impact player, not really that great
2007: Kareem Brown, Clint Oldenburg, Justin Rogers, Mike Richardson, Justise Hairston, Corey Hillaird, Oscar Lua and Mike Elgin...0 impact players
2008: Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Donnell, Jonathan Wilhite, Matthew Slater, Bo Buud...1 impact player in Wilhite, but I dont think he would be playing at all is this team had better corners. He isnt very good.
2009: Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Rich Orhnberger, George Bussey, Jake Ingram, Myron Pryor, Julian Edelman, Darryl Richard...tough to talk about these guys since they were just rookies, but Pryor and Edelman saw time and the Pats are really big on Tate and McKenzie who were limited due to injuries. Too early to tell, but I dont think this will be labeled as bad 2nd day drafting

There was a really bad strech from 2006-2008, but 2009 I think was definitely a step in the right direction. I think that it is definitely an issue to look at, but not the overwelming reason as to why the Patriots havent been as successful in the past 2 years. I think it does have something to do with it because if you look at the elite teams they will have had great 2nd day drafting and added impact players, which is something the Patriots didnt do. You cannot say that their 2nd day drafting is the worse in the league because look at 2005, you cant really get a much better 2nd day that that, but I will say that it is an issue that deserves some criticism.

 

[reflexblue]

I'd rather use a scale of one through ten, ten being an A+.....i'd give the pats about a 6.5 - 7 on they're drafting over the years since BB has been here. FA's are another matter for every Rodney it seems there are two or three Duane Starks, Tory James's, orMoney Beisel's