Best article from Reiss in quite a while

[Wretch]

When you say something like this you better be able to back it up with some sort of stats.

yeah, you keep blabbing the same stupidity about hindsight.......feel free to refute, but over the last 5 year, the pats have gotten less productivity out of their day 2 picks than any other team in the NFL....you could probably throw 2nd rounders into that equation, also......

Can you? Or are you just engaging in hyperbole?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

And yet the Patriots have been a top team in the NFL for the last 5 years, funny how that works. I'll just ignore your ridiculous statement of getting less than any other team in the NFL... And of course undrafted free agents get to skip your day-2 arguments.



Go ahead and do it then, hindsight master. 31 teams, so get to work.



You have failed to prove anything with your twisted logic and limited scope.

well....they were a top team in one of those 5 years, and the downward spiral since has not been pretty .... maybe if they drafted better, they would have some LB's now

the only one ridiculous here is the one suckin' down gallons of the kool-aid

just try to come up with one team who has done worse in day 2 over the last 5 years than the pats.....go ahead, don't be lazy

I know what the facts are .... feel free to refute them

 

[tanked_as_usual]

When you say something like this you better be able to back it up with some sort of stats.



Can you? Or are you just engaging in hyperbole?

I stand by my statement....feel free to refute....otherwise, you are wasting words

 

[emoney_33]

The Pats were warned multiple times to stop taping other teams, yet continued to do it. Even though it's a stupid rule and doesn't give teams that much of an advantage, it's a rule and the Pats chose to break it. Although I believe every team does it in one way or another, the NFL unfortunately caught the Pats first and needed to make an example out of somebody. Is it just me or I'm I the only one still pissed about not having that first round pick? I believe they would've used that pick to trade up for Mike Jenkins.

Multiple warnings do not justify ridiculous punishment. Period.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Multiple warnings do not justify ridiculous punishment. Period.

maybe not to you.......but then again, you are drunk on kool-aid

I didn't like the punishment, but it fit the crime

 

[JMarr]

Jury is out on Mayo? He's been starting for 2 years and had a knee injury this year.

Wheatley showed some real potential in his rookie season before injury derailed his path, and who knows where he's at at this point. Calling it a terrible pick just ignores uncontrollable factors like course-altering injuries.Crable was a project that never worked out, but to be fair they did get Guyton undrafted.

They turned one of the 3rd rounders into a 2nd rounder in 2009, which so far looks to be a really good draft by the Patriots.

Not to mention the filthy piece of crap commish stole a 1st rounder from us in that draft!

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Wheatley was healthy this year (as far as we know), yet Wilhite, Butler, and Springs saw all the playing time. I agree he looked good as a rookie before he went down, so maybe there's still an injury issue.

Anyway, there's no way you can say that that was a good draft. What kind of production have we gotten out of Crable, O'Connell, Wheatley and Wilhite and anyone not named Mayo? And why do you draft two cornerbacks that year? Seems to me that those were "need" as opposed to "value" picks. Same could be said for Crabel and Mayo, so maybe one of our experts here could explain to me the Patriots' drafting philosophy again..........

 

[tanked_as_usual]

now the 2009 draft seems to be shaping up nicely, but it still does not escape the fact that a useless tub of goo (brace) was drafted over a mind-boggling group of remaining talent....and no claims of hindsight can be brought on when it was clear what the general consensus was (barwin, sintim, brown) and the the others (mccoy, massaquoi, byrd, unger, loadholt, moor, kruger)....the pats could have pretty much picke ANYONE else remaining who was drafted in the 2nd round and have been better off

the same can be said for the 3rd round with taking a stab on an injured player like tate when a out-of-the-box-ready guy like mike wallace was sitting there......

 

[The Dynasty]

You are arguing we should scrutinize the 4th-7th round picks in a poor draft of a season in which we had the best team ever? How many players from the 2007 draft 4th round or later made it in the NFL? I mean we know the low percentage of hits on 4th-7th rounders already, and 2007 wasn't a deep draft at all.

When you have a draft where you draft 9 players and only 1 has a serious impact in the league you know you went wrong somewhere. Draft picks especially in the later rounds usually have little effect in their rookie year so saying that because the 2007 team was the best team ever has nothing to do with the draft picks that they had. Those later round picks usually make their impact in their 2nd and 3rd years and look at our last 2 seasons, we could have used a few more impact players these past 2 seasons. These players could have came from the 2007 draft. I am not saying that all of their picks in the 4th-7th round should have been impact players, but the elite teams in the league get more out of their late round picks than the Pats did in 2007 and that is a fact and people that look at that draft and just see Moss and Welker added automatically assume it was a good draft. The reality of the situation is the Pats only really drafted 1 impact player that year and it is now beginning to show its effects.

 

[RobertWeathers]

now the 2009 draft seems to be shaping up nicely, but it still does not escape the fact that a useless tub of goo (brace) was drafted over a mind-boggling group of remaining talent....and no claims of hindsight can be brought on when it was clear what the general consensus was (barwin, sintim, brown) and the the others (mccoy, massaquoi, byrd, unger, loadholt, moor, kruger)....the pats could have pretty much picke ANYONE else remaining who was drafted in the 2nd round and have been better off

the same can be said for the 3rd round with taking a stab on an injured player like tate when a out-of-the-box-ready guy like mike wallace was sitting there......

Way too early to be so negative regarding Brace IMO. The kid had never played in a 3-4 D w/ the type of technique (2-gap) required.

 

[emoney_33]

tanked... as usual. A procedural rule of not having cameras on the sideline does not fit the 1st round theft.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Wheatley was healthy this year (as far as we know), yet Wilhite, Butler, and Springs saw all the playing time. I agree he looked good as a rookie before he went down, so maybe there's still an injury issue.

Even if his injury healed fully now, something like that can have a large impact on the course of a young kid's career. It doesn't even have to be completely physical either. It remains to be seen whether he can bounce back or if he'll join the countless should-have-beens but I still think it was a good pick at the time.

Anyway, there's no way you can say that that was a good draft. What kind of production have we gotten out of Crable, O'Connell, Wheatley and Wilhite and anyone not named Mayo?

Commish stole a 1st.
A 3rd was transformed into a 2nd of a very good 2009 draft.
Mayo is going to be a good NFL player for years to come.
Wheatley's development was derailed, and who knows if he has the makeup to overcome.
Wilhite has made solid contributions and his development looks to continue.
Crable was a project that hasn't worked out and may never.
O'Connell oh well, can't win em all right.
Slater 5th round and solid contributions on special teams.
Bo Ruud oh well, can't win em all right.

And we got Guyton undrafted.

How exaclty is 2008 considered a major failure?

And why do you draft two cornerbacks that year? Seems to me that those were "need" as opposed to "value" picks. Same could be said for Crabel and Mayo, so maybe one of our experts here could explain to me the Patriots' drafting philosophy again..........

Need alters value, and it has ALWAYS been that way. I'm fine with the 2 CB picks. The Patriots don't overstretch for need, but it obviously a factor that must be considered when making a selection.

Pioli said that they passed on Brady a couple times even though he was highest on their board simply because they had Bledsoe. Until finally he was so much higher than anyone else they grabbed him.

Crable was a chance, but just because he hasn't made it doesn't mean he had 0% chance to make it at the time. It wasn't a great pick at the time, but every team has wiffs like that.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Way too early to be so negative regarding Brace IMO. The kid had never played in a 3-4 D w/ the type of technique (2-gap) required.

neither did pryor.....brace was simply not ready for the NFL in any capacity

I think there is some hope held out that a year of OTA's might do something for him, but the point was about who was still on the board at the time along with what some of the pats needs were.....to use a 2nd rounder on a guy like brace when you already had wilfork was a waste........even more so if the pats do extend wilfork.

I mean Jamal williams goes down for the chargers and everyone was convinced their defense would be one big hole.....but then they dragged Ian Scott out from under some rock and he did fairly well.......so the selection of brace seems frivolous at best

 

[emoney_33]

When you have a draft where you draft 9 players and only 1 has a serious impact in the league you know you went wrong somewhere. Draft picks especially in the later rounds usually have little effect in their rookie year so saying that because the 2007 team was the best team ever has nothing to do with the draft picks that they had.

It has a little to do with it since they have to win a spot on the team. You don't draft 7 guys on day 2 and keep them all unless you have a bad team.

Those later round picks usually make their impact in their 2nd and 3rd years and look at our last 2 seasons, we could have used a few more impact players these past 2 seasons. These players could have came from the 2007 draft.

Who could they have been, at the time, that would have made the team and taken a roster spot. Sure they had a large failure rate and probably could have kept 1 or 2 contributors if they drafted differently, but it is one year. It's relatively pointless to pick day-2 draft players from 1 year and start nitpicking it. They body of work as a whole has been a success, and with any long-term success you have patches of ugly failures and patches of extraordinary success mixed in.

I am not saying that all of their picks in the 4th-7th round should have been impact players, but the elite teams in the league get more out of their late round picks than the Pats did in 2007 and that is a fact and people that look at that draft and just see Moss and Welker added automatically assume it was a good draft. The reality of the situation is the Pats only really drafted 1 impact player that year and it is now beginning to show its effects.

OK so they didn't do the absolute best thing possible by drafting players in a bad draft in 2007. I'm not sure the point of nitpicking that is. Everyone makes mistakes, but to nitpick all the specific mistakes is to expect or attempt to create perfection which is impossible. Overall, not getting a contributor from the 2007 day2 draft picks isn't a huge problem. They were amazing in 2007, dangerous in 2008, and 2009 had a huge turnover that no day-2 contributor from 2007 was going to magically cure.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

tanked... as usual. A procedural rule of not having cameras on the sideline does not fit the 1st round theft..

that is only your opinion, and we know how much that is worth....feel free to ignore the rest of the story

Commish stole a 1st.
A 3rd was transformed into a 2nd of a very good 2009 draft.
Mayo is going to be a good NFL player for years to come.
Wheatley's development was derailed, and who knows if he has the makeup to overcome.
Wilhite has made solid contributions and his development looks to continue.
Crable was a project that hasn't worked out and may never.
O'Connell oh well, can't win em all right.
Slater 5th round and solid contributions on special teams.
Bo Ruud oh well, can't win em all right.

And we got Guyton undrafted.

How exaclty is 2008 considered a major failure? .

errr....yeah...I hear kumbaya in the background...may as well put 'can't win 'em all next to wheatley and crable, too......sing it, baby!!!

Need alters value, and it has ALWAYS been that way. I'm fine with the 2 CB picks. The Patriots don't overstretch for need, but it obviously a factor that must be considered when making a selection.

Pioli said that they passed on Brady a couple times even though he was highest on their board simply because they had Bledsoe. Until finally he was so much higher than anyone else they grabbed him.

Crable was a chance, but just because he hasn't made it doesn't mean he had 0% chance to make it at the time. It wasn't a great pick at the time, but every team has wiffs like that.

so, you're basically saying you have no clue

 

[tanked_as_usual]

It has a little to do with it since they have to win a spot on the team. You don't draft 7 guys on day 2 and keep them all unless you have a bad team. .

I missed it.......were the pats a bad team going into the 2009 season???? they kept everyone from day 2....NEXT

Who could they have been, at the time, that would have made the team and taken a roster spot. Sure they had a large failure rate and probably could have kept 1 or 2 contributors if they drafted differently, but it is one year. It's relatively pointless to pick day-2 draft players from 1 year and start nitpicking it. They body of work as a whole has been a success, and with any long-term success you have patches of ugly failures and patches of extraordinary success mixed in. .

where are the extraordinary patches of day 2 success for the pats since 2004? NEXT!!!!

OK so they didn't do the absolute best thing possible by drafting players in a bad draft in 2007. I'm not sure the point of nitpicking that is. Everyone makes mistakes, but to nitpick all the specific mistakes is to expect or attempt to create perfection which is impossible. Overall, not getting a contributor from the 2007 day2 draft picks isn't a huge problem. They were amazing in 2007, dangerous in 2008, and 2009 had a huge turnover that no day-2 contributor from 2007 was going to magically cure.

I don't know, but brandon siler instead of oscar lua would have helped BIG

not getting a day 2 contributor for 5 years hurts BIG TIME.....except you don't realize it

 

[Deus Irae]

You've got to be kidding, right? 2008's draft was pathetic! Not only is the jury out on Mayo now, but Wheatley was a terrible pick and there's is no reason to believe he will prove us wrong. O'Connell was unnessesary and that turned out to be a wasted pick. Crable is a joke and I will be shocked if he makes the team this season.

Slater has been a solid special teams player. Mayo was the DROY. Wheatley had become a starter in year one, before becoming injured again. Wilhite is an NFL caliber nickel back that the team got in the 4th round. Crable, whom I was wary about from the beginning,

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/88510-crable-pass-rush-specialist.html#post940986

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/88510-crable-pass-rush-specialist.html#post941000

hasn't been able to stay healthy.

Regardless of what happens with Wheatley and Crable, that 2008 draft has netted, at the very least, a DROY who was a star in the making prior to last year's injury, an NFL level nickel cornerback who's been pressed into a starting role, and a tremendous special teams player. Calling that draft pathetic says a lot more about the people complaining than it does about the draft itself.

Now, if you'd just hung your hat on wondering what the hell Belichick was thinking when he pissed away a 3rd round draft pick on a quarterback instead of bagging on the entire draft, I'd have been with you on that.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

See, this is the kind of silliness that has been a huge downside with the internet. Slater has been a solid special teams player. Mayo was the DROY. Wheatley had become a starter in year one, before becoming injured again. Wilhite is an NFL caliber nickel back that the team got in the 4th round. Crable, whom I was wary about from the beginning,

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/88510-crable-pass-rush-specialist.html#post940986

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/88510-crable-pass-rush-specialist.html#post941000

hasn't been able to stay healthy.

Regardless of what happens with Wheatley and Crable, that 2008 draft has netted, at the very least, a DROY who was a star in the making prior to last year's injury, an NFL level nickel cornerback who's been pressed into a starting role, and a tremendous special teams player. Calling that draft pathetic says a lot more about the people complaining than it does about the draft itself.

naaahhhh........I didn't see all that in wheatley

which is likely why they followed up the following year with drafting butler, signing springs and bodden

 

[emoney_33]

not getting a day 2 contributor for 5 years hurts BIG TIME.....except you don't realize it

Learn what a contributor is. Better yet become a Jets fan.

1 is greater than 0, and thus to prove you wrong I simply point out Gostkowski.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Learn what a contributor is. Better yet become a Jets fan.

1 is greater than 0, and thus to prove you wrong I simply point out Gostkowski.

check out the brain on brad!!!!!

LMFAO.....a kicker.....ok.....you're right.....the pats were very average day 2 drafters over that time....WTF was I thinking:bricks:

you've got awfully low expectations.......but I guess when you flood yourself with kool-aid, it can happen

 

[emoney_33]

check out the brain on brad!!!!!

LMFAO.....a kicker.....ok.....you're right.....the pats were very average day 2 drafters over that time....WTF was I thinking:bricks:

you've got awfully low expectations.......but I guess when you flood yourself with kool-aid, it can happen

Oh kicker's are against your stupid rules? OK, then James Sanders. You said 0, I now have 2. Next excuse and outlandish remark will be...

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Oh kicker's are against your stupid rules? OK, then James Sanders. You said 0, I now have 2. Next excuse and outlandish remark will be...

you got me!!! the pats are awesome in that regard!!!!

still LMFAO at your squirming.......keep up the good work