Barwin runs a 4.47 at pro day

[JoeShmoe]

Well with Mathews, you can at least evaluate him as a LB - making tackles in space, playing coverage, etc. So that evaluation mitigates some risk

With Maybin, I agree the evaluation is also difficult as he doesn't have much more game experience than Barwin. Though he's played against higher competition and has better stats. And since he's played exclusively on the defensive side of the ball, you'd at least hope that his pass rushing techniques are better. But it's still a very tough projection to make.

Yes I agree, I just dont see how Barwin stands out to make him a first round pick. We could go other options at #23/#34 and still pick up a decent OLB later in the second depending on how it fell

I can just see the woe on the forum when we don't select an OLB at all on day 1 and push a pick into 2010

 

[mayoclinic]

Why is so much sotock placed on a 40 time for a pass rusher? What does it matter how fast he is in a straight line if you cant get past the tackles/guards .. surely the best measures of an OLB are how well he can set the edge, how is he at shedding blockers, how are his smarts

Granted im sure speed helps but im not sure any FO worth their salt looks at these things in isolation

If speed were all it took, then Ellis Hobbs would be at OLB

Im not convinced Barwin is as good as many seem to have convinced yourself that he is - esp compared to Maybin and/or Matthews

I personally don't care very much about Barwin's combine times. I've been high on him since last fall based on his performance. It was clear to me from watching him play that he had extraordinary athleticism that translated onto the field, combined with great versatility and intangibles (motor, character, intelligence, etc.).

Whether Barwin runs a 4.65 or a 4.47 40 is irrelevant to me. I'm not advocating him based on his numbers, and his slower numbers are still plenty fast anyway. I do find his numbers interesting for 2 reasons. First, they confirm the athleticism and speed that I see when I watch him play. Those go far beyond his 40 time anyway - his 3-cone, short shuttle, 10 yard split and vertical are more interesting to me than his 40 time. Second, because a lot of people do get over-enthused about workout times, Barwin's spectacular showing is likely to move him up considerably over where he would have gone if he were simply being evaluated as a football player. Therefore the question is whether he warrants being taken higher. I personally think he does, again based on his play, productivity and my projection of him, rather than on his performance as a track athlete.

Yes I agree, I just dont see how Barwin stands out to make him a first round pick. We could go other options at #23/#34 and still pick up a decent OLB later in the second depending on how it fell

I can just see the woe on the forum when we don't select an OLB at all on day 1 and push a pick into 2010

As a first year defensive player in a fairly strong conference Barwin recorded 53 tackles, 16 tackles for a loss, and 11 sacks, plus several passes defended, and 3 blocked kicks. Robert Ayers, who Mayock and Lombardi have as a top 10 pick, recorded 49 tackles, 15.5 TFL, and 3 sacks. The numbers for Everett Brown are 36/21.5/13.5, and for Aaron Maybin 61/24.5/16. I would argue that Barwin has shown terrific productivity for a first year player at his position - much more than Ayers, Brown or Maybin showed in their first years. Combined with his athleticism and versatility, I would say that makes him stand out to me. JMHO.

 

[mayoclinic]

Since I brought up Mamula as a comparison, let me explain what I'm talking about.

Mamula was a pretty good college player - I think he had about 13 sacks as a senior. But he was always seen as an undersized DE and that's basically what he ended up being his entire NFL career. What Mamula represents though, is guys who get overdrafted based on measurables that don't translate to their position and then fail to live up to the high expectations. Amazingly, it happens every single year. Football players are evaluated based on hundreds of plays over their careers. And then, after they've played their last snap, they rise and fall on the draft boards because of a single 40 time. And the reason why I put the word "amazingly" in front of that sentence, is because most of the time their ranking before the combine is actually more reflective of their NFL careers. Of course that's a debatable statement, but I'm sticking with it until somebody proves me wrong.

DeMarcus Ware, Patrick Willis, Shawne Merriman, Jerod Mayo and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie all moved up based on their combine performances, and their professional careers to date have supported that their revised ranking was more accurate than their pre-combine ranking.

There are plenty of examples both ways.

I agree with the people who say that we shouldn't expect rookies to become starters. The risk with Barwin isn't that he won't start from day 1. It's that he'll never become a full time player. Just think about that - the guy has to learn all the techniques of an OLB starting from square 1. Plus he has to adjust to the speed of the NFL. And he's going to have to do all this while he doesn't play in any games and fans on boards like this are going to be calling him a major bust.

So how does that differentiate him from Everett Brown, Aaron Maybin and all the other DE/LB conversions? Of course it's a risk. There are no sure things in the draft.

 

[jsull87]

in your comparisons of barwin with maybin, brown e.t.c i was just wondering whether other teams seemed to treat him as much of a threat as maybin brown and co? e.g was he double teamed as much? in your opinion did it look like other teams realised he was a threat? It might be that him being a 1st year started at the possition may have in some ways helped him. i still think he is great and would like having him with our 2nd 2nd but just thoght i would throw another view on his numbers

 

[JoeShmoe]

As a first year defensive player in a fairly strong conference Barwin recorded 53 tackles, 16 tackles for a loss, and 11 sacks, plus several passes defended, and 3 blocked kicks. Robert Ayers, who Mayock and Lombardi have as a top 10 pick, recorded 49 tackles, 15.5 TFL, and 3 sacks. The numbers for Everett Brown are 36/21.5/13.5, and for Aaron Maybin 61/24.5/16. I would argue that Barwin has shown terrific productivity for a first year player at his position - much more than Ayers, Brown or Maybin showed in their first years. Combined with his athleticism and versatility, I would say that makes him stand out to me. JMHO.

Good points as always Mayo .. do you think though that he is exceptional enough to warrant one of the high picks? To put it another way would you be disappointed if we passed on him at #23 /#34 but still picked up one of the other OLB's later in the 2nd?

Is there that much difference between them to warrant going after this guy? TBH I haven't seen his games, so ive no idea how those numbers translate in terms of opposition, schemes etc. I cant help but think of Gholston as a high pick DE/OLB last year where numbers told a great story and as we know its a whole different world in the NFL

I just feel personally (the more I think about it) that OL is a bigger need for us and I'd also love to pick up one of Delmas/Chung or Moore at S -esp if get Jason Taylor in FA or somehow do the deal with Peppers

 

[bucky]

Nice, but again what does this have to do with Barwin? Since you seemed to have missed patchick's efforts to correct your erroneous characterization, I'll repeat it for you: Barwin started rising towards the end of the college season as draftniks, pundits, and yes scouts too, had time to digest a full season's work at his new position. He rose from a mid-round pick to a second rounder after the season - just as Clay Matthews Jr. rose from a mid-round pick to a first round pick as his performance as a starter was evaluated. Now some of the better pundits and draftnik sites are suggesting Barwin is a late first round value, based NOT on a single 40, but on a display of athleticism they did not expect. What is the difference between a second rounder and a late first rounder? In most cases it's measurables and athleticism.

Box,

you have missed the entire point of my post. I don't have anything against Barwin as a player or as a pick for the Pats. I just don't want him at 23, or for that matter at 34. And although you've been talking about him for a while, I doubt that 2 months ago you were talking about him as a 1st round pick, were you? This has come up after his combine/pro day. And look at the title of this thread - "Barwin rund a 4.47". It's all about measurables. Measurables that have very little to do with how well he will play OLB! THAT is the point of my thread.

In terms of some of your finer points, you are just making excuses for your argument. Barwin's level of competition is a very reasonable argument because in half the games he was playing against OL who have no business even thinking about the NFL. Eastern Ky, Miami (Oh), Akron, Marshall, South Fla. Those are not even Big East team. Yes, they are BSC conferences, but you can't even compare that level of competition to the SEC or ACC. When you look at his stats against Oklahoma and UConn - 2 teams who we know have good OTs, he actually had very poor stats.

 

[MetalBleachers]

Box,

you have missed the entire point of my post. I don't have anything against Barwin as a player or as a pick for the Pats. I just don't want him at 23, or for that matter at 34. And although you've been talking about him for a while, I doubt that 2 months ago you were talking about him as a 1st round pick, were you? This has come up after his combine/pro day. And look at the title of this thread - "Barwin rund a 4.47". It's all about measurables. Measurables that have very little to do with how well he will play OLB! THAT is the point of my thread.

In terms of some of your finer points, you are just making excuses for your argument. Barwin's level of competition is a very reasonable argument because in half the games he was playing against OL who have no business even thinking about the NFL. Eastern Ky, Miami (Oh), Akron, Marshall, South Fla. Those are not even Big East team. Yes, they are BSC conferences, but you can't even compare that level of competition to the SEC or ACC. When you look at his stats against Oklahoma and UConn - 2 teams who we know have good OTs, he actually had very poor stats.

Just a quick reiteration of an earlier post on this thread: it's not that he ran a 4.47, it's that he ran better in March than he did in February. When this guy sets his mind to it, he tends to succeed. If he were to move to OLB in June, he could be in good shape by preseason game one.

Is it a definite? Of course not. I'm looking out the window right now at a fender bender. It wasn't a definite that the guy in the Nissan was going to make it to work this morning without getting rear-ended by the guy in the Bronco. But, based on what he has shown during games and his workouts, Barwin could be a solid contributor at least.

That's all I got.:nosmile:

 

[patchick]

It's all about measurables. Measurables that have very little to do with how well he will play OLB! THAT is the point of my thread.

OK, let's take on that core question. I think the Barwin fan club has done a good job in explaining why their enthusiasm goes far beyond just the measurables. So now, is it really true that those measurables "have very little to do with how well he will play OLB"?

Over the past 5 drafts there have been exactly 4 3-4 OLB conversion prospects with the ideal natural size & length for the position and extraordinary measurables on quickness, agility and explosiveness (e.g. 3-cone < 6.90, VJ > 38 in). One is Connor Barwin. The other 3 were all taken in the top 17 picks of the first round. Of those 3, one sadly suffered a career-ending injury as a rookie. The other 2 are DeMarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman; IOW, probably the two best and most dangerous players at the position over the past decade.

Are measurables alone enough? Of course not. But when you have a player with good football instincts and the drive to succeed PLUS rare measurables, that's when extraordinary things can happen.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Everyone of the Barwin fans on this forum freely admit he has a lot to learn, it is indeed one of the negatives on his resume.

but even so, barwin picked up a position change like it was nothing last year........I believe his learning capacity is what nobody is acknowledging

 

[mayoclinic]

OK, let's take on that core question. I think the Barwin fan club has done a good job in explaining why their enthusiasm goes far beyond just the measurables. So now, is it really true that those measurables "have very little to do with how well he will play OLB"?

Over the past 5 drafts there have been exactly 4 3-4 OLB conversion prospects with the ideal natural size & length for the position and extraordinary measurables on quickness, agility and explosiveness (e.g. 3-cone < 6.90, VJ > 38 in). One is Connor Barwin. The other 3 were all taken in the top 17 picks of the first round. Of those 3, one sadly suffered a career-ending injury as a rookie. The other 2 are DeMarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman; IOW, probably the two best and most dangerous players at the position over the past decade.

Are measurables alone enough? Of course not. But when you have a player with good football instincts and the drive to succeed PLUS rare measurables, that's when extraordinary things can happen.

As I said a few pages earlier in this thread, I think that to realy excel at LB in BB's scheme you have to have both athleticism and smarts. Mayo and Thomas clearly have both, a did Vrabel and Bruschi in their prime. You may be able to adequately get by with lesser ability, but to excel it really takes both. Monty Beisel and Victor Hobson are good examples of nice players who clearly didn't have the athleticism that it took to play in this defense. Being a step or two too late doesn't help much.

Barwin's measurables merely reflect what the game film shows - terrific athletic ability, a rare combination of speed/strength/agility combined with versastility, awareness, and a terrific motor. How often does that combination come around? Maybe about 5 times a decade as far as I can tell.

By the way Patchick, where would you put Terrell Suggs in your list? Did you leave him out because he came out in 2003 (over 5 years ago)? I don't recall what his measurables were, but he is clearly in the Merriman/Ware category. It's a shame about David Pollack, too. I wanted him in the worst way in 2005.

 

[bucky]

OK, let's take on that core question. I think the Barwin fan club has done a good job in explaining why their enthusiasm goes far beyond just the measurables. So now, is it really true that those measurables "have very little to do with how well he will play OLB"?

Over the past 5 drafts there have been exactly 4 3-4 OLB conversion prospects with the ideal natural size & length for the position and extraordinary measurables on quickness, agility and explosiveness (e.g. 3-cone < 6.90, VJ > 38 in). One is Connor Barwin. The other 3 were all taken in the top 17 picks of the first round. Of those 3, one sadly suffered a career-ending injury as a rookie. The other 2 are DeMarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman; IOW, probably the two best and most dangerous players at the position over the past decade.

Are measurables alone enough? Of course not. But when you have a player with good football instincts and the drive to succeed PLUS rare measurables, that's when extraordinary things can happen.

Well if you're in the Barwin fan club, you can compare him to Ware and Merriman and ignore the fact that both of those players were highly productive in College for 3 years and had much more experience playing in space over their careers. I won't even get into the system difference between a BB defense and a Wade Philips one - which is significant in its own right.

But if you're not in the Barwin fan club, you can just as easily compare him to Mike Mamula and Manny Lawson - another guy who ran a 4.4 and generated quite a bit of buzz on this board. Both of those guys were fine college players.

There are plenty of other guys like that whose success has been mixed - Wimbley, Babin, Bryan Thomas, Pace, Jarvis Moss. Ironically, the best OLB (IMO) to have come out was Suggs and he actually slid because he didn't run fast enough.

Personally, I'm neither a Barwin lover or hater. I'm merely pointing out the fact that he's gone from a 2nd-3rd round pick to "I hope he's still there at 23" based on things that have very little to do with football. And I, for one, don't want to fall into that trap.

Barwin's Pro day performance was great. And I'm sure he has a great attitude and work ethic - both of which are certainly pluses. But it still doesn't make him a first round pick.

 

[mayoclinic]

Good points as always Mayo .. do you think though that he is exceptional enough to warrant one of the high picks? To put it another way would you be disappointed if we passed on him at #23 /#34 but still picked up one of the other OLB's later in the 2nd?

Is there that much difference between them to warrant going after this guy? TBH I haven't seen his games, so ive no idea how those numbers translate in terms of opposition, schemes etc. I cant help but think of Gholston as a high pick DE/OLB last year where numbers told a great story and as we know its a whole different world in the NFL

I just feel personally (the more I think about it) that OL is a bigger need for us and I'd also love to pick up one of Delmas/Chung or Moore at S -esp if get Jason Taylor in FA or somehow do the deal with Peppers

Good thoughts.

First of all, I've been echoing your thoughts about OL, OLB and S as our 3 most likely day 1 needs, with the 4th pick being potentially ILB, DE, another OL, or traded into 2010. My preferred candidates are William Beatty at OT (with Alex Mack at OG/C as my preferred interior lineman and Eric Wood as my 2nd choice), Connor Barwin at OLB, and Louis Delmas at S (with William Moore and Patrick Chung nice consolation prizes). I like Robert Ayers as a potential SILB conversion project as well.

I've thought a lot about how to maximize getting those players. For a long time my preference was to go OT at #23 if Beatty was available (based on how difficult it is to get a potential franchise LT and how they tend to climb boards) followed by Barwin at #34. However, with Barwin's workouts I see more likelihood of missing out on him at #34, and right now my guess is that Beatty has a better chance of slipping.

I assume that the Pats will make up their draft board and keep a very close watch on the draft stock of their preferred candidates to see who has the best chance of lasting till the next pick, as well as which positions have the best alternate candidates. I think this will be a highly tactical draft. I also think that we could trade up to secure specific players that we like. For example, assuming the Pats do like the 3 players I mentioned:

- Take Barwin at 23 and then, if we don't think Beatty will last to 34, trade #34 and #89 and move up to around #26-27 to get him. Then go for the best safety at 47.

- Take Barwin at 23 and if Beatty and Delmas are both available at 34 and we don't think either will last to 47, take Beatty at 34 and trade #89 and #47 to move up to around #35-36, targeting Delmas.

The same logic applies if the Pats happen to like different players than the ones I prefer.

Do I think Barwin is exceptional enough to justify #23 instead of filling other needs and getting someline like English or Sintim later? Personally, I do, but there's obviously a lot of different tastes reflected on this board. I just don't think you find Barwin's combination of skills, athleticism, versatility, intangibles very often. I haven't seen anyone since David Pollack who I liked as much as a 3-4 LB conversion. So I would prioritize him quite highly. But the Pats may not have as big a gap between him and other candidates on their board, in which case using a 1st round pick on him may not be justified.

 

[bucky]

By the way Patchick, where would you put Terrell Suggs in your list? Did you leave him out because he came out in 2003 (over 5 years ago)? I don't recall what his measurables were, but he is clearly in the Merriman/Ware category.

Suggs was considered a top 5 pick (or higher) until he ran a 4.8 at the combine. Just another example of why I find it laughable when front 7 players move up and down draft boards based on what they do in shorts and t-shrits.

I, for one, think that Suggs is the best fit for the Patriots OLB position - better than Peppers, Ware, or Merriman.

 

[patchick]

By the way Patchick, where would you put Terrell Suggs in your list? Did you leave him out because he came out in 2003 (over 5 years ago)? I don't recall what his measurables were, but he is clearly in the Merriman/Ware category. It's a shame about David Pollack, too. I wanted him in the worst way in 2005.

Yeah, I'd certainly rank him right behind them on the field. I started w/Merriman & Ware's year simply because I can't remember Suggs' measurables and can't find them anywhere. I know he ran a slow 40, but so did Pollack -- that number isn't high on my list.

Edit: just saw Bucky's post, so I'll reiterate: the 40 is not a big deal in my evaluation of OLBs.

 

[mayoclinic]

Suggs was considered a top 5 pick (or higher) until he ran a 4.8 at the combine. Just another example of why I find it laughable when front 7 players move up and down draft boards based on what they do in shorts and t-shrits.

I, for one, think that Suggs is the best fit for the Patriots OLB position - better than Peppers, Ware, or Merriman.

You may be right. I started a thread about the possibility of using 2 firsts to go after Suggs (which won't work, as he turned out to be an exclusive rights FA) rather than trading for Peppers:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ld-we-try-sign-terrell-suggs-offer-sheet.html

Personally, I think I rank DeMarcus Ware slightly ahead of Suggs as the ideal Pats 3-4 OLB, but it's splitting hairs.

As Patchick notes, the measurables say that Barwin has the best chance of becoming a Ware/Merriman type player of anyone since 2005. Combine that with his versatility, high motor, and quick learning ability, and that's why he is so intriguing to so many of us. Will it happen? The odds are against it. But given how strong the package is, I think that I would be willing to take that chance at #23. I doubt we will have another chance to get that kind of an opportunity for a long time.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Good thoughts.

First of all, I've been echoing your thoughts about OL, OLB and S as our 3 most likely day 1 needs, with the 4th pick being potentially ILB, DE, another OL, or traded into 2010. My preferred candidates are William Beatty at OT (with Alex Mack at OG/C as my preferred interior lineman and Eric Wood as my 2nd choice), Connor Barwin at OLB, and Louis Delmas at S (with William Moore and Patrick Chung nice consolation prizes). I like Robert Ayers as a potential SILB conversion project as well.

I've thought a lot about how to maximize getting those players. For a long time my preference was to go OT at #23 if Beatty was available (based on how difficult it is to get a potential franchise LT and how they tend to climb boards) followed by Barwin at #34. However, with Barwin's workouts I see more likelihood of missing out on him at #34, and right now my guess is that Beatty has a better chance of slipping.

I assume that the Pats will make up their draft board and keep a very close watch on the draft stock of their preferred candidates to see who has the best chance of lasting till the next pick, as well as which positions have the best alternate candidates. I think this will be a highly tactical draft. I also think that we could trade up to secure specific players that we like. For example, assuming the Pats do like the 3 players I mentioned:

- Take Barwin at 23 and then, if we don't think Beatty will last to 34, trade #34 and #89 and move up to around #26-27 to get him. Then go for the best safety at 47.

- Take Barwin at 23 and if Beatty and Delmas are both available at 34 and we don't think either will last to 47, take Beatty at 34 and trade #89 and #47 to move up to around #35-36, targeting Delmas.

The same logic applies if the Pats happen to like different players than the ones I prefer.

Do I think Barwin is exceptional enough to justify #23 instead of filling other needs and getting someline like English or Sintim later? Personally, I do, but there's obviously a lot of different tastes reflected on this board. I just don't think you find Barwin's combination of skills, athleticism, versatility, intangibles very often. I haven't seen anyone since David Pollack who I liked as much as a 3-4 LB conversion. So I would prioritize him quite highly. But the Pats may not have as big a gap between him and other candidates on their board, in which case using a 1st round pick on him may not be justified.

Yes, it all depends who they've got on the boards, but with all the picks, if they could somehow come out with Barwin/Matthews, Beatty/Smith, Mack/Unger, Chung/Delmas/Moore and Brinkley Id be delighted

That may mean they trade down from #23 initially and then use their lower picks to move up...who knows

25th April should be an interesting day whatever happens

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Yeah, I'd certainly rank him right behind them on the field. I started w/Merriman & Ware's year simply because I can't remember Suggs' measurables and can't find them anywhere. I know he ran a slow 40, but so did Pollack -- that number isn't high on my list.

Edit: just saw Bucky's post, so I'll reiterate: the 40 is not a big deal in my evaluation of OLBs.

Here's a question, though--how important is the 40 to BB at OLB? I wouldn't be surprised if it has more weight than we think (or less, for that matter).

As a case in point--remember Mankins running 20+ yards downfield looking for players to block on a Faulk run?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box,

you have missed the entire point of my post. I don't have anything against Barwin as a player or as a pick for the Pats. I just don't want him at 23, or for that matter at 34. And although you've been talking about him for a while, I doubt that 2 months ago you were talking about him as a 1st round pick, were you? This has come up after his combine/pro day. And look at the title of this thread - "Barwin rund a 4.47". It's all about measurables. Measurables that have very little to do with how well he will play OLB! THAT is the point of my thread.

Here's the first post were I evaluated Barwin's value, projecting him as a solid early second, with the possibility he could rise into the late first round. It's 'only' a month and a half ago, not "two" months, but it was 'post' All-Star games and 'pre' Combine. So yes, his athleticism moves him into the first round, just the same as those kids patchick has tracked. http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...rry-english-patriot-material.html#post1277581

In terms of some of your finer points, you are just making excuses for your argument. Barwin's level of competition is a very reasonable argument because in half the games he was playing against OL who have no business even thinking about the NFL. Eastern Ky, Miami (Oh), Akron, Marshall, South Fla. Those are not even Big East team. Yes, they are BSC conferences, but you can't even compare that level of competition to the SEC or ACC. When you look at his stats against Oklahoma and UConn - 2 teams who we know have good OTs, he actually had very poor stats.

Okay, Miami (OH) and Akron are MAC teams, Marshall is Conference USA - while neither is a BCS conference, they are both solid mid-major conferences who regularly play against SEC, Big-10, and other conferences you seem to find respectable.

Eastern Kentucky is indeed from the next level down - the same level as Appalachian State who provided a wake-up call to Michigan a while back - players from that level are drafted into the NFL all the time and many of the "major" colleges schedule games with good lower level programs to give their kids a tune-up game, and to give the lower level kids some national exposure. Eastern Kentucky may have played at a lower level, but they were 'a playoff' team at their level, which makes them a dangerous opponent for any 'major' college who falls asleep at the switch, again, ask Michigan.

South Florida is a Big East team. They were a bowl team the past two seasons and were a pre-season Top 20 pick. Their tackles may not have set the world on fire, but they do get to practice against one of the premiere edge rushers in the NCAA - George Selvie. I believe Barwin gave them as much trouble as Selvie does in practice.

Yep, Barwin struggled against Oklahoma and Phil Loadholt who was a preseason first round projection draft pick who has since slid into the second round. I'm going to have to ask you to consider whether Barwin's limited stat line for that game could have had anything to do with the fact he was playing his 'second' game as a starter at DE and his first game against BCS competition? To be fair, you might consider factoring that into your assessment. Barwin did accumulate 4 TT and 1 QBH working against that road grader left side of Oklahoma's OL - both of whom are second round projections and were invited to the Senior Bowl.

Connecticut and projected first round LT William Beatty are next in your argument. Okay then, Barwin only had 2 TT, 1 TFL, and 1 PD - that's really not a bad stat line against a top LT. Connecticut also played Virginia, so we get to compare Barwin's performance with his draft peer, Clint Sintim, pretty cool eh? The four year 3-4 OLB Sintim had 5 TT. Yes, that's a period, no TFL, no QBH, no sacks, no PD, no FF, no FR. I admit 5 TT is quite respectable, but if NE is looking for pass rush help in this draft, and many fans consider that a priority, the rookie defensive player got just a tad more into the QB's face than the veteran defensive player - if the stat line is to be believed. Connecticut also played South Florida and the NFL Draft Scout #1 ranked DE for the class of 2010, George Selvie. Sadly, Selvie struggled all season with nagging injuries, so it's not exactly a fair comparison, especially when we see that Selvie had 1 TT... Do we make an "excuse" for Selvie or do we just say that Barwin's performance against William Beatty compares favorably to two of the better edge rushers who also played against Connecticut this past season?

I have no hope of convincing you of Barwin's value, you've got bad cases of Mamula-itis and 40 fixation fear, but your competition arguments aren't as strong as you would have, both on the team level and on the individual level.

 

[patchick]

Here's where I am on Barwin at this point: I think he is the #1 OLB prospect among those likely to be available at #23. That's all.

Am I convinced he's destined to be an All-Pro? Nope. Do I recognize the risk? Yep. Do I realize that six months ago he wasn't even a defender, let alone a day-1 draft pick? Of course, that's why he's likely to be available at #23. Because of his inexperience, period.

The others in the discussion -- English, Maybin, Matthews & Johnson -- all have huge question marks, too. If that makes you look to other positions like DL or OL for value at #23, that's extremely reasonable. But you have to be prepared that all 5 of your iffy OLB options may be gone by gone by #34, because that's what happens with pass rushers.

 

[MetalBleachers]

Here's where I am on Barwin at this point: I think he is the #1 OLB prospect among those likely to be available at #23. That's all.

Am I convinced he's destined to be an All-Pro? Nope. Do I recognize the risk? Yep. Do I realize that six months ago he wasn't even a defender, let alone a day-1 draft pick? Of course, that's why he's likely to be available at #23. Because of his inexperience, period.

The others in the discussion -- English, Maybin, Matthews & Johnson -- all have huge question marks, too. If that makes you look to other positions like DL or OL for value at #23, that's extremely reasonable. But you have to be prepared that all 5 of your iffy OLB options may be gone by gone by #34, because that's what happens with pass rushers.

:agree: No guarantees for NFL rookies. (Beyond their contracts, I suppose.) Still, Barwin's upside, adaptability and versatility all make him a consideration.