Barwin runs a 4.47 at pro day

[bucky]

All this hoopla about his 40 times and number of bench reps makes me thing of 2 words - Mike Mamula.

I'm sure Barwin is a very gifted athlete. But he's also only played 1 year on Defense. And that was as a DE against second-tier competition. There's no telling how well he'll be able to play in space - either against the run or the pass. His technique as an OLB will need a LOT of work. And there's just not telling how good his instincts are in coverage. One initial false step can turn that 4.4 time into 4.9 or worse.

I believe the Patriots' approach to the 1st round is to avoid "boom or bust" guys and instead draft guys with a high floor, consistent production, and low bust potential. IMHO, Connor Barwin is the antithesis of that type of player, so I would be highly surprised if they take him at 23.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

By my best recollection I saw at least 5 and as many as 7 Cincy games. He first caught my attention while I was checking out CB Mike Mickens and OG Trevor Canfield. Barwin's ball awareness caught my eye, he'd be rushing the passer one breath and the next he's in the air as the ball was released knocking down the pass or altering the throw. He has a nose for the ball, you'd see it on run plays too. I saw him check his rush and run with the RB on a wheel route, I saw him playing up on his feet moving down the line of scrimmage to vary his pass rush and disrupt the blocking scheme. I saw him pull a Vrabel as a goal line TE, he blocked fairly well and he caught one TD. He was on the Punting unit and according to statistics he returned two KO for an average of 10 yds, so it seems he's also a blocker on the KR unit.

Now, if you want to equate him to Chad Jackson without ever having seen him play, be my guest.

not to split hairs, but was it 5 cincy games or 7 that you saw? otherwise, it just sounds like you're full of fecal matter

 

[mayoclinic]

I believe the Patriots' approach to the 1st round is to avoid "boom or bust" guys and instead draft guys with a high floor, consistent production, and low bust potential. IMHO, Connor Barwin is the antithesis of that type of player, so I would be highly surprised if they take him at 23.

You mean like Ben Watson? Lawrence Maroney? Perhaps those are arguments against Barwin as neither has turned out to be world-beaters so far, but I don't think that the risk-avoidance principle is entirely accurate.

 

[bucky]

You mean like Ben Watson? Lawrence Maroney? Perhaps those are arguments against Barwin as neither has turned out to be world-beaters so far, but I don't think that the risk-avoidance principle is entirely accurate.

You can never avoid risk completely. I think both players you named have been decent contributors. Certainly not world beaters, but decent starters when healthy. But if you look at the 2 biggest busts so far, I'd have to point to Chad Jackson and Bethel Johnson. Both of those guys went in the 35-40 range, I think. And even Chad had a boatload of production in college, but he came out early so didn't have as much of a body of work.

Getting back to Barwin, I'd say he's even more of a boom/bust type of prospect than Bethel (Barwin probably has a higher upside, but Bethel was a good bet to be a superior KO returner.) I'd just rather not see him picked at either 23 or 34. If he's still there at 48, he becomes worth a serious look.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

not to split hairs, but was it 5 cincy games or 7 that you saw? otherwise, it just sounds like you're full of fecal matter

Well I am full of fecal matter, but as to Cincy games, I saw at least 5, and when I look at the schedule I seem to remember watching a couple others, so sue me for lack of perfect recall.

 

[mayoclinic]

If he's still there at 48, he becomes worth a serious look.

If he's still there at 48, it will mean we've passed on him 3 times. We pick at 23, 34 and 47.

I'd love Barwin to last till 47, but I really don't think it's going to happen. Lasting till 34 looks pretty dubious right now. If you don't like him earlier that's fine, but don't count on him to still be available there.

 

[Patriot Missile]

If he's still there at 48, it will mean we've passed on him 3 times. We pick at 23, 34 and 47.

I'd love Barwin to last till 47, but I really don't think it's going to happen. Lasting till 34 looks pretty dubious right now. If you don't like him earlier that's fine, but don't count on him to still be available there.

He sure does look like a Parcells guy too. He may be there at 34 if he can get by Miami's 1st rounder. I'd be flat out shocked if he was there at 47. All I have to say is if BB passes on him 3 times,more than likely he see's something he doesn't like in the kid or just likes other players better.

 

[bucky]

All I have to say is if BB passes on him 3 times,more than likely he see's something he doesn't like in the kid or just likes other players better.

Or maybe he passes on him because he hasn't seen enough to feel safe about spending a 1st or early 2nd round pick on him.

 

[bucky]

If he's still there at 48, it will mean we've passed on him 3 times. We pick at 23, 34 and 47.

I'd love Barwin to last till 47, but I really don't think it's going to happen. Lasting till 34 looks pretty dubious right now. If you don't like him earlier that's fine, but don't count on him to still be available there.

I'm not counting on him being there. I'm just saying that's where I'd consider him for the Pats. And thanks for pointing out the mistake, I did mean 47.

 

[TruthSeeker]

All this hoopla about his 40 times and number of bench reps makes me thing of 2 words - Mike Mamula.

I'm sure Barwin is a very gifted athlete. But he's also only played 1 year on Defense. And that was as a DE against second-tier competition. There's no telling how well he'll be able to play in space - either against the run or the pass. His technique as an OLB will need a LOT of work. And there's just not telling how good his instincts are in coverage. One initial false step can turn that 4.4 time into 4.9 or worse.

I believe the Patriots' approach to the 1st round is to avoid "boom or bust" guys and instead draft guys with a high floor, consistent production, and low bust potential. IMHO, Connor Barwin is the antithesis of that type of player, so I would be highly surprised if they take him at 23.

Barwin's #'s sure do seem like Mike Mamula. Part of me prays he's there at #34 and we take him, and another part of me is scared to take him. Darn this split personality, lol.

 

[mayoclinic]

Barwin's #'s sure do seem like Mike Mamula. Part of me prays he's there at #34 and we take him, and another part of me is scared to take him. Darn this split personality, lol.

I don't understand what is remotely Mamula-like about Barwin. The only connection I see is that they posted some fabulous numbers at the combine. But so have many other players over the years, who haven't gone on to flame out like Mamula. DeMarcus Ware comes to mind, among others.

There's a big difference between taking a conversion project or a raw player at #23 and taking them top 10. Philadelphia took Mamula at #7, I believe. The Jets took Vernon Gholston at #6 last year, even though there was plenty that would suggest that he might struggle at playing in space. It would be one thing to take him #6 as a DE, another entirely to take him as a conversion project top 10. That was always the issue with Chris Long, who would have been a great 3-4 LB conversion project, but not at top 10 money.

At #23 territory, relatively few Pats rookies have come in and been major contributors out of the gate. Mankins comes closest (and he was an OT conversion), but OG does not have as much complexity as playing 3-4 OLB. Meriweather came on slowly his rookie year and was even labeled a "bust" by some, though he showed flashes of potential. Even Wilfork took some time to adjust and didn't make an overwhelming impact.

I think it would be unfair to expect Barwin or any other pick at #23 to come in and be a major producer from day 1. The Pats seem to have covered most of their immediate holes, so there is absolutely no need for a rookie to cover major needs.

Barwin was more productive in his first year on defense than Robert Ayers from Tennessee (11 sacks vs. 4, more tackles, etc.) with more athleticism and versatility. No one calls Ayers a "workout warrior". But just because Barwin has terrific athleticism and great workout numbers, he gets labelled with Mamula comparisons.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

But just because Barwin has terrific athleticism and great workout numbers, he gets labelled with Mamula comparisons.

Not to worry, I think if you were to look back you'd see how Mayo was a Mamula clone too. There's always someone coming late to the game who wants to trot out the Mamula charge.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Demarcus Ware and Shawn Merriman were late risers due to their post-season
workouts. Dwight Freeney too. So, there are many examples of players moving up and becoming all-pros. Not just another Mamula.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Why is so much sotock placed on a 40 time for a pass rusher? What does it matter how fast he is in a straight line if you cant get past the tackles/guards .. surely the best measures of an OLB are how well he can set the edge, how is he at shedding blockers, how are his smarts

Granted im sure speed helps but im not sure any FO worth their salt looks at these things in isolation

If speed were all it took, then Ellis Hobbs would be at OLB

Im not convinced Barwin is as good as many seem to have convinced yourself that he is - esp compared to Maybin and/or Matthews

 

[ayjackson]

Why is so much sotock placed on a 40 time for a pass rusher?

I haven't read where people were putting undue stock on a DE's fourty time. The fact is, 4.47 is noteworthy for a DE, it doesn't mean people are basing their assessments on the time. A fourty time can be indicative of athleticism though, especially when you consider the rest of the body of combine work.

 

[patchick]

Demarcus Ware and Shawn Merriman were late risers due to their post-season workouts. Dwight Freeney too. So, there are many examples of players moving up and becoming all-pros. Not just another Mamula.

It's a weird phenomenon -- blowing away the combine now labels you a "workout warrior" and likely bust in some quarters, all laid at the feet of a single bad draft pick from 14 years ago. It's a kind of backwards world, where the better your performance, the worse a prospect it makes you.

The label "workout warrior" is supposed to apply to the guy who's just a physical specimen and not a football player; the guy who wows them in spandex shorts but makes little impact on game day. It is NOT supposed to denigrate a player just for being a phenomenal athlete. In the case of Conner Barwin, the guy was already this board's binky before the combine based on his actual football attributes. Check it out, you'll find several HUNDRED Barwin posts here from before his workouts.

 

[MetalBleachers]

It's a weird phenomenon -- blowing away the combine now labels you a "workout warrior" and likely bust in some quarters, all laid at the feet of a single bad draft pick from 14 years ago. It's a kind of backwards world, where the better your performance, the worse a prospect it makes you.

The label "workout warrior" is supposed to apply to the guy who's just a physical specimen and not a football player; the guy who wows them in spandex shorts but makes little impact on game day. It is NOT supposed to denigrate a player just for being a phenomenal athlete. In the case of Conner Barwin, the guy was already this board's binky before the combine based on his actual football attributes. Check it out, you'll find several HUNDRED Barwin posts here from before his workouts.

PC, you've summarized what I wanted to say. Mamula was the first (or maybe the first, most-publicized) draftee to tailor his workouts specifically to the combine, giving him eye-popping 40-times and vertical jump measurements. Having a great game in an epic upset of Notre Dame his senior year also helped.

In Barwin we have a different animal: a guy who played tight end and did pretty well, then - at the behest of his coach - switched to DE and led the conference in sacks. He has improved his lateral movement, as shown in his combine times and drills. He improved his 40 (his 4.47 would have made him third-fastest at the combine...at running back) and his bench press.

In other words, whatever this guy sets his mind to, he tends to accomplish. If the Pats picked him at 23, is there any doubt he'd contribute on special teams from the start (he blocked 3 punts last year)? It's not just about athleticism with him: he adapts well and seems able to accomplish most tasks set in front of him. I had my doubts before, but his pro-day 40 - because of the improvement - puts him at 23 for me.

 

[MetalBleachers]

FYI: The Myth of Mike Mamula - The Fifth Down Blog - NYTimes.com

 

[ctpatsfan77]

PC, you've summarized what I wanted to say. Mamula was the first (or maybe the first, most-publicized) draftee to tailor his workouts specifically to the combine, giving him eye-popping 40-times and vertical jump measurements. Having a great game in an epic upset of Notre Dame his senior year also helped.

In Barwin we have a different animal: a guy who played tight end and did pretty well, then - at the behest of his coach - switched to DE and led the conference in sacks. He has improved his lateral movement, as shown in his combine times and drills. He improved his 40 (his 4.47 would have made him third-fastest at the combine...at running back) and his bench press.

In other words, whatever this guy sets his mind to, he tends to accomplish. If the Pats picked him at 23, is there any doubt he'd contribute on special teams from the start (he blocked 3 punts last year)? It's not just about athleticism with him: he adapts well and seems able to accomplish most tasks set in front of him. I had my doubts before, but his pro-day 40 - because of the improvement - puts him at 23 for me.

+1

Two things, BTW:
(1) He weighed in at 251 at his pro day.
(2) As one of the videos above I linked to notes, he also can be yet another backup LS.

 

[MetalBleachers]

+1

Two things, BTW:
(1) He weighed in at 251 at his pro day.
(2) As one of the videos above I linked to notes, he also can be yet another backup LS.

Hmmm... not sure if he has the required tattoos.