Are we a quarterback away from being good?

[upstater1]

Smith couldn't grasp this offense. Stop blaming that on Mac. He literally took out both our starting TEs (one of them being him) because he kept running into other Patriots receivers. And he was here when Mac was a rookie and before everyone had a book on Mac and other receivers like Henry thrived and Smith was awful.

And Mac's biggest problem isn't his talent. It is he has become a head case because he lost his confidence. He made costly mistakes early in the season, but prior to the Cowboys game, he played pretty at times too. And he played great against the Bills. He just is like Tony Eason in that he is seeing ghosts and making bad decisions because of it. Mac may have never become a good QB anywhere, but he became a trainwreck here because he is not mentally tough and Belichick did everything to ruin him. A mentally stronger QB might have overcome it. But when you are weak mentally, you crumble.

We disagree on Mac. He would've been a wreck anywhere he went. He was scouted. He can't throw an out. The opposing Ds clog up the middle of the field because that's the only place he can throw to. He's really bad; he really really is. I was rooting for him. I posted on all his problems in the 2nd game of the year. With the same talent on O, and a half decent QB, we'd be much better off as a team

 

[Ring 6]

I don't know. Other than 2 catches last week, JuJu has been just as awful with Zappe as he has been with Mac. And he had one catch for 11 yards against the Chargers. Henry had two catches for 15 yards against the Chargers.

We are taking one half of one game against a team that is imploding to make definitive statements.

Let's stop blaming Mac for the fact this offense is awful with or without him.

No we are taking the sum total of 10s career.
Smith
Henry
Agholor
Parker

Pretty much everyone produces less with 10.

The offense is already better with a 3rd string qb playing.

The other 10 players can’t overcome the qb not executing the offense.
Look at the film. Study the plays. When you can watch the play unfold it’s usually pretty obvious what the coverage was and with the route combos where the ball is supposed to go. He doesn’t execute it, and receivers are open. Just like the play we discussed where the deign of the play and coverage was screaming at him to throw the in route behind the cover2 corner and in front of the S who was 8 yards away and instead he ran toward a defender on the ground and tripped over him. Or the play BOB was pissed about when the right read gave him an easy first down and he waited for the rush to get to him and threw very late and underhanded to Rham. Or the play he audible to a gesicki route, gesicki was wide open and he did t throw it. The film is full of these routine okays any competant qb should make and we are punting

 

[Rob0729]

We disagree on Mac. He would've been a wreck anywhere he went. He was scouted. He can't throw an out. The opposing Ds clog up the middle of the field because that's the only place he can throw to. He's really bad; he really really is. I was rooting for him. I posted on all his problems in the 2nd game of the year. With the same talent on O, and a half decent QB, we'd be much better off as a team

He threw just fine his rookie year. He would have been far better than he is today if Shanahan drafted him like he wanted to. He might not be as good as Purdy (most likely not even close), but the 49ers would still be winning games. Shanahan would have gotten him to play closer to how he played in Alabama.

If we had a half decent QB, we might have 4-5 wins right now. This offense is devoid of talent.

 

[Rob0729]

No we are taking the sum total of 10s career.
Smith
Henry
Agholor
Parker

Pretty much everyone produces less with 10.

The offense is already better with a 3rd string qb playing.

The other 10 players can’t overcome the qb not executing the offense.
Look at the film. Study the plays. When you can watch the play unfold it’s usually pretty obvious what the coverage was and with the route combos where the ball is supposed to go. He doesn’t execute it, and receivers are open. Just like the play we discussed where the deign of the play and coverage was screaming at him to throw the in route behind the cover2 corner and in front of the S who was 8 yards away and instead he ran toward a defender on the ground and tripped over him. Or the play BOB was pissed about when the right read gave him an easy first down and he waited for the rush to get to him and threw very late and underhanded to Rham. Or the play he audible to a gesicki route, gesicki was wide open and he did t throw it. The film is full of these routine okays any competant qb should make and we are punting

Agholor has 314 yards this year. He is on pace for a 411 yard and 4 TD season with a former league MVP throwing to him. I don't know why you think Agholor has made this huge jump since he left the Patriots. He is the same guy he was here. A mediocre WR who can tease you with the occasional elite play that is very rare.

Henry had a great half last week. Otherwise, he has been the same guy he was with Mac thus far.

Again, you are talking about stuff this year. Mac is broken. Any he did good went out the window. Anything he did bad was worse than ever was. That isn't what happened his rookie season.

 

[Ring 6]

He isn't the same guy. It is funny I got into argument last year with someone else who claimed Mac locked into his first read so much that he never checked down and that is what teams saw. That was a problem last year, but that was Patricia's offense.

Everyone seems to have a different reason why Mac sucked and there is no universal reason for it.

Mac in the right offense might be a good QB. In the Patriots' offense with mediocre talent, he was never going to be good. He isn't the type of QB to elevate talent. But I seriously doubt he made receivers run the wrong routes and not get separation which everyone who watches the ALL 22 film says about these receivers.

Mac is completely broken and I would never want him as the starter of the Patriots ever again, but he is not the same QB he was his rookie season. He should have been nurtured and might have grown from there.

This is the problem when people who don’t understand the game think they can watch the game on tv and assess what’s going on.
Of course everyone has a different reason because they are guessing.


Patricia’s offense was McDaniels offense. What happened was Patricia and judge (and McD probably covered this with them when he was leaving) properly assessed that 10 wasn’t sticking with his progressions long enough (see the JUJU play vs cover2 as an example) so they encourage him to let the play develop and give downfield and complex routes time to come open.
The problem became when he tried to throw down the field he couldn’t and threw a bunch of picks.


Go to the film. It’s all right there.

 

[Ring 6]

Again, even when Mac was good Smith was awful. Some players are scheme fits and that was Smith. You admitted that Mac played well until teams figured him out. Players like Henry and Bourne also played well during that time. Smith always sucked here. That is on Smith. Not Mac.

And I think you are projecting Mac's problems this year onto his previous years.

10 was never good. I didn’t admit he played well, I said he was more effective before he was figured out, but he was doing the wrong things, that’s not good.

Smith has produced with everyone else. He’s a hback/TE who is a 4th option at best. Scheme for is not relevant to a 4th option. He was open as often here as he was in Tennessee or is in Atlanta.

 

[Rob0729]

This is the problem when people who don’t understand the game think they can watch the game on tv and assess what’s going on.
Of course everyone has a different reason because they are guessing.


Patricia’s offense was McDaniels offense. What happened was Patricia and judge (and McD probably covered this with them when he was leaving) properly assessed that 10 wasn’t sticking with his progressions long enough (see the JUJU play vs cover2 as an example) so they encourage him to let the play develop and give downfield and complex routes time to come open.
The problem became when he tried to throw down the field he couldn’t and threw a bunch of picks.


Go to the film. It’s all right there.

I am glad you can admit your liabilities. Study up and you might get there.

Patricia's offense especially at the start of the season was not the McDaniels' offense. Not even close. Patricia allowed no audibles and no blocking adjustments presnap which is a huge part of the McDaniels' offense. There were few route adjustments based on the defensive alignment. Mac was asked to make the first read most of the time and not check down. There were a lot of 50-50 balls. It was a far more vertical offense than what McDaniels called. Patricia never had any presnap motion to expose whether it was man or zone. The offense was simplied for Patricia.

 

[Ring 6]

Agholor has 314 yards this year. He is on pace for a 411 yard and 4 TD season with a former league MVP throwing to him. I don't know why you think Agholor has made this huge jump since he left the Patriots. He is the same guy he was here. A mediocre WR who can tease you with the occasional elite play that is very rare.

Henry had a great half last week. Otherwise, he has been the same guy he was with Mac thus far.

Again, you are talking about stuff this year. Mac is broken. Any he did good went out the window. Anything he did bad was worse than ever was. That isn't what happened his rookie season.

Agholor came here as a staring WR with production and 10 couldn’t get him the ball. He went to Baltimore as a reserve 5th option and has put up better numbers.

No, he is the same guy. He could only get the ball to Henry 60% as much as SD did. He cut Agholor a production to 60% of what it was. Smith produced half of what he had and did after. Everyone we brought in did worse than they did before except Bourne because we gave him more playing time.

 

[Rob0729]

10 was never good. I didn’t admit he played well, I said he was more effective before he was figured out, but he was doing the wrong things, that’s not good.

Smith has produced with everyone else. He’s a hback/TE who is a 4th option at best. Scheme for is not relevant to a 4th option. He was open as often here as he was in Tennessee or is in Atlanta.

The guy came in second in offensive rookie of the year voting. If you cannot admit he ever played well, you are just too biased.

And Smith was alway potential over production. The guy has never even had a 500 yard receiving season yet. This will be his first year of his career where he will get over 500 yards, but still is an average at best TE. He not all that good. He has had a couple really good games with Atlanta, but most of the other games he has been the same guy he was here. I suggest you look at his production.

 

[Ring 6]

I am glad you can admit your liabilities. Study up and you might get there.

Patricia's offense especially at the start of the season was not the McDaniels' offense. Not even close. Patricia allowed no audibles and no blocking adjustments presnap which is a huge part of the McDaniels' offense. There were few route adjustments based on the defensive alignment. Mac was asked to make the first read most of the time and not check down. There were a lot of 50-50 balls. It was a far more vertical offense than what McDaniels called. Patricia never had any presnap motion to expose whether it was man or zone. The offense was simplied for Patricia.

You are just wrong.

 

[Rob0729]

Agholor came here as a staring WR with production and 10 couldn’t get him the ball. He went to Baltimore as a reserve 5th option and has put up better numbers.

No, he is the same guy. He could only get the ball to Henry 60% as much as SD did. He cut Agholor a production to 60% of what it was. Smith produced half of what he had and did after. Everyone we brought in did worse than they did before except Bourne because we gave him more playing time.

Wait! You said Agholor was better after he left here. He went from the first option to "a reserve 5th option" on a team not exactly stacked with receivers. And you say that is better?

 

[Rob0729]

You are just wrong.

Coming from the guy who thinks Patricia ran the same offense as McDaniels did.

 

[Ring 6]

Wait! You said Agholor was better after he left here. He went from the first option to "a reserve 5th option" on a team not exactly stacked with receivers. And you say that is better?

His production is better.

 

[Ring 6]

Coming from the guy who thinks Patricia ran the same offense as McDaniels did.

Glad you understand you were wrong about that.

 

[Wozzy]

You honestly have the worst takes. So now, Bill knows Mac sucks which is why he avoided getting a 3rd down back or adding an elite WR! smart!

No one builds or should build a team that way. "well my QB sucks so i'm going to ignore adding talent on offense, i'll wait until I get a good one so the team they come to is devoid of any talent"

Mac sucks… period.

They had Rhamondre and Zeke, both can play on third down. Zeke had 7 catches for 72 yards and a TD last game… Zappe didn’t struggle checking it down to his RB.

 

[Wozzy]

Garner Minshew just had the best game of his career last night against the Steelers. Last week may have been more about the Steelers than the Patriots’ offense.

Minshew isn’t great but he’s still good, people have a hard time admitting that for some reason.

 

[mgteich]

???

They won the Super Bowl last year.

The only difference is they lost JuJu.

These are just basic facts.

They added Rashee Rice, but the fact remains, they won the Super Bowl last year. That kind of success is hard to disagree with.

Are you arguing with folks that say that winning the SB is nowhere enough to be considered a good team?

I guess that they are arguing that losing Shuster was devastating to the team.

 

[1960Pats]

Never said they were just making a point that when a team finds the QB that's all. No organization in any sport will ever replicate the longevity of success we sustained.

We're in a different position than any other fans in the league

 

[sb1]

Minshew isn’t great but he’s still good, people have a hard time admitting that for some reason.

For a backup. Not more than that.

 

[1960Pats]

Minshew isn’t great but he’s still good, people have a hard time admitting that for some reason.

Yes they do. They also do the same with Ryan Tannehill and Joe Flacco, two QBs who have beaten the Pats in the past. Maybe it's because they were looking at Brady and making comparisons based off of that, but if they had gone after any of those QBs instead of Cam or Mac Jones we'd be in a better place now.