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8th Circuit delivers ruling - lockout legal

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by MoLewisrocks, Jul 8, 2011.

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  1. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No details as yet. Apparently Nelson will be required to hold evidentiary hearings on FA issues if suit is to continue...
     
  2. BlueThunder

    BlueThunder PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Lets hope this forces the deal to be consumated shortly.....
     
  3. Rob0729

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    It is a non-issue. The new CBA will likely be done and be ready for a vote in a few days. If this ruling came out a few weeks ago, it might have made a difference. At this point, they are in striking distance of reaching the goalline.
     
  4. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Apparently they didn't limit the lockout to a term of months, either, as some speculated they would. They simply ruled that Norris LaGuardia did apply. Nor did they weigh in on whether or not anti trust exemptions continue in the face of the union decertification. Ergo the anti trust suit can continue come September if games are missed. They did remand the case back to Judge Nelson with the instruction that she must hold evidentiary hearings in order to determine whether irreparable harm was/is in fact being inflicted on FA and unsigned rookies who do not have an employee/employer relationship with the league at this time. And the case may continue in the courts and the owners would still face potential treble damages once the case is completed - although including through appeals you'd then be talking years... Hopefully this lights a fire under the NFLPA and the hardline owners don't get swelled heads in the interim. Unless he's out of contact I would not be surprised to see Doty weigh in before the day is done to try and tip the scales in the other direction...
     
  5. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #24 Jersey

    Hopefully it is a non-issue. And this really may be true as I believe this was the expected ruling. But certainly any ruling can tip the scales and potentially do harm to any ground that may have been gained.

    Of course it could also speed things up. If the players were holding out for one more point of contention they may cave now knowing the ruling and harm it may cause.

    Not sure why the judges would wait so long to rule and then rule when it seems like things are going as well as they have since the last CBA was agreed on. I guess its not the Judges jobs to worry about the negotiations but seems ill timed to me.
     
  6. RelocatedPatFan

    RelocatedPatFan In the Starting Line-Up

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    I like it. Win for the owners, but still keeps enough of a fire lit under them to get the job done...both sides have good reason to continue working on the CBA.
     
  7. townes

    townes Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    One of the judges was going on vacation.
     
  8. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wrong court. Boylan, the justice Nelson tapped to mediate settlement talks, is going on vacation. He's not part of the appeals court. But as Breer says the imminent loss of pre season revenue is now driving this train moreso than any mediator.
     
  9. townes

    townes Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    WEEI simply said a judge was going on vacation, they didn 't say which one it was. Either way it appears this won't derail negotiations and hopefully Doty won't be as irresponsible as the 8th circuit and will postpone his ruling on damages for the players.
     
  10. patriot lifer

    patriot lifer 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    #87 Jersey

    Not nitpicking, just curious about this aspect. So the Norris LaGuardia Act means that no injunctions could be ordered by the courts (for labor disputes). I'm no legal scholar but could the judges technically say it's illegal but be unable to issue the injunction? In which case if they thought the lockout was legal, it wouldn't relate to the Norris Laguardia Act at all. Not nitpicking, I was just always trying to understand this aspect, out of harmless curiosity.
     
  11. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    I hope this doesn't embolden the owners to renig on concessions already made. Would the fact that a judge had witnessed the negotions prevent this from happening? If so, I think it brings a deal much closer and would behoove the players to make concessions in the few remaining details. If not, this could completely destroying all the progress made.
     
  12. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

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    I don't think this swings the leverage towards the owners at all.

    Breer was on 98.5 and said that while the headline might say it favors the owners - the ruling itself punishes both sides, and strongly encourages them to avoid court and settle it now.

    The lockout as it pertains to FAs and rookies is being sent back to the player-friendly judge in Judge Nelson and we can imagine which way that is going to go.

    Either way, the owners want to get this done before they lose out on the racket which is the preseason. Both sides have a lot of motivation.

    Breer said that if it doesn't get done, then it will end up getting ugly, and that's essentially what the ruling intimated, and why the ruling was intended to motivate both parties to settle now.
     
  13. TheGodInAGreyHoodie

    TheGodInAGreyHoodie Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I am not so sure the ruling is as much of a loss for the owners as I have seen it made out to be.

    Sounds like it is actually a win-win for the owners.

    Lock out continues.

    But even with the lockout continuing you can start the FA period, negotiate with and sign drafted and undrafted rookies and hold rookie minicamps all before the deal is finalized.

    If I am a coach in the NFL I am trilled with this and would announce rookie mini camp would be starting on Monday.
     
  14. townes

    townes Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    The NFL's lead lawyer Jeffrey Pash is on record that nothing will start until everything is settled and signed.
     
  15. Darrone

    Darrone On the Roster

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    Both sides have been assuming this ruling would occur exactly as it did, the only surprise was the timing (amid what are CLAIMED to be productive work sessions).
     
  16. TheGodInAGreyHoodie

    TheGodInAGreyHoodie Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    If a judge order FA to start it might start. It would not be that bad for the owners though.
     
  17. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What the court said is it may not apply to FA and rookies who do not have an employer/employee relationship with the league at this time. They also said however that Judge Nelson cannot just do what she did last time out, decide what she believed absent evidentiary hearings. So first she would have to schedule hearings on whether irreparable harm is being done to FA and rookies due to the lockout. That process would take weeks if not longer. Then if she rules it does and lifts the lockout for those players (who could then be signed and would then be legally locked out all over again...) the league would have the right to appeal to the same court that just ruled in their favor...
     
  18. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Heard an excellent interview on WEEI today with a reporter from Chicago whom Dale and Holley said was a real NFL insider (with sourcing from the players, union and league). He certainly was knowledgeable as he walked them through today's ruling. He said the reason there will not be a handshake agreement and back to work this time is that last time the owners agreed to do that some of the language got tweeked by Kessler and Co after the fact to the point owners would not have agreed to the deal had they known that kind of BS was afoot... So this time all the i's and t's will be etched in stone before they vote on this CBA or lift the lockout. Fans fail to appreciate that a may here as oppsed to a will there can change the entire interpretation of a deal once a grievance is filed and an arbitrator is dissecting language for meaning. I think owners were stunned when they still could not recoup most of Vick's signing bonus or the roster bonus Stallworth "earned" hours before he hit that poor man...and became unavailable to play for a season it was intended to correlate to...

    He also said that Goodell has already worked out a plan for any additional revenue sharing the have nots may need to keep pace even with this deal once finalized. Says that was settled in house so it would not be an impediment to this overall CBA being negotiated fairly. Also said that Kessler who has been involved in the sue to negotiate formula since 1989 (and whose firm has made over $80M in the intervening term including handling grievances that have gone to court as a result of the prior SSA) has been attempting to insert a monkey wrench into the negotiations all along. Noted that a handful of agents are also now aggitating against the rookie cap and wouldn't you know, Kessler's son is an agent.

    He also said that it was getting close to time for a couple of the highest profile plaintiffs to get behind Smith and basically tell those agents and the lawyers and anyone else with an agenda that enough is enough, time to get a deal done and get back to work. Said that was what it took to settle MLB's last labor impasse.

    He said if pressed he still predicts a deal is reached but not until the middle of next week. He said that is the case in part because they have been bringing in the lawyers and minions who manage the CBA periodically to draft the basic language of what has been agreed to leaving just the blanks to fill in as they close the gap on the remaining financial and other issues.
     
  19. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Daniel Kaplan of the Sports Business Journal summarized the decision pretty well in his tweets...

    Judge Nelson rather cavalierly in my humble, common sense driven opinion, ruled that decertification immediately eliminated any labor dispute. That never made sense. This impasse remains a labor dispute whether the labor in question is unionized or not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  20. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    WEEI has Holley and Curran's interview yesterday with MarK Ganis up in it's audio vault.

    Mark Ganis on the NFL lockout and when we can expect it to end

    I think if both sides digest this ruling over the weekend a deal is doable next week. But I think in order for that to happen the players have to grasp what this ruling represents. Sure the anti trust suit can continue, but so can the lockout in the interim. The owners know they made a tactical error last time out in allowing the games to go on while the players sued them. They were determined not to do that this time and this decision has essentially said they don't have to. Nobody wants to lose games, let alone regular season games because of the potential long term backlash as well as short term financial hit. But we all know on some level that unity rhetoric aside the players on the whole cannot withstand the short term financial hit of a lost season.

    All along we've heard that the key issue is the revenue split. That seemed to be close to settled weeks ago when they essentially agreed to the flat all revenue split of 48/52 and a cash spending floor exceeding the old cap spending floor. It's only since then that anscillary issues have become increasingly difficult to negotiate. There is a reason for that. Someone doesn't want that deal done. And someone else may not want any deal done. Aside from round one rookies, the players will be better off with this deal in the long term than they would have been with the old deal. They will make more money in the short and long term (courtesy of the rookie cap alone). There will be improved retirement and long term health care benefits and eligibility rules and there will be an increased emphasis on existing work rules to mitigate injury risk (everything from # of OTA's to padded practices to better drug testing to weed out PED users who increased the level of risk to themselves long term and others short term and a better process to insure swift justice).

    The clear cut losers in this deal will be the top tier agents who lose their perception driven slam dunk annual trip to the bank being handed to them on a platter and the lawyers who only make money when ad nauseum trips to court pad their billable hours.

    For all his faults Goodell got his troops in order as the scenario unfolded. He's appeased the haves with the basic deal and the have nots with assurances of some continued supplemental revenue sharing formula in a league that already leads the pack by a mile in sharing 75% of pooled revenue equally.

    This guy is on the mark. It's time for Tom and Peyton and Drew to rally their fellow plaintiffs and peers to cut the BS red herring stalling and get a fair deal done and get back to work before a small agenda driven group cooks their golden egg laying goose.

    I hope Mr. Kraft is back at the table Monday or Tuesday. Otherwise I'll take that as a sign that like on Friday when he was absent he sensed the scripted stall would render his presence a waste of time because the other side still isn't quite ready to do a deal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2011
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