4th and 1 Challenge

[sly24]

I agree on the 4th and 1 challenge. There has to be conclusive evidence for the play to be overturned. We all know that by looking at the replay, it looked like forward progress gave him the first down but there's no camera right on top of this to show where exactly the ball crossed the out-of-bounds line. Inconclusive evidence. That never should have been overturned.

However, I feel like the Mayo penalty is the one that really hurt the most. At that point, I don't think the Ravens even had a first down in the game. That call got them into a rhythm. I think this was the most blown call too, it was no where near holding. It is even debatable.

Oh and Jones was blatantly being held by Oher on almost every play. No call.

After watching DEN-ATL last monday night, I thought it was impossible for the refs to do worse, turns out I was wrong. This game is the worst officiated game I've seen in my life.

 

[signbabybrady]

It isnt "Enough" it is "indisputable".

You are missing my point by picking out the way I phrased something.

The video evidence in this case is indisputable like I said in most angles and in more then enough engles you can clearly see the ball, you can clearly see yard markers, and the lines on the field. The only thing left to do is interpret a few different angles so you can make up for the fact that you dont have a direct straight line done the first down line and sideline. But you almost never do.

I find it funny that you are trying to do what always annoys me from the refs which is use this idea of indisputable evidence as a crutch for not overturning what actually happened because it is a difficult call to make.

Maybe we need to pull up the actual rule and its true syntax to truly analyze this but I am of the understanding that the rule is written to protect against making assumptions when something cant actually be seen like the football in the middle of a QB sneak with 22 players in a pig pile. But not for instances where you can see everything in the replay but still determine it is to close to tell so I will go with the choice on the field.

Lets say a sideline catch where the toe may be .00001 of mm in or out of bounds. Lets say they called it a catch but on the replay it looks like he is.00001 out of bounds. How would you call it?
IMO to often the refs would say not enough evidence which pisses me off because we have all been looking at it for 2 minutes in super slow motion and we could all clearly see the guys toe in high definition jumbo trons and all that and clearly the evidence is there. The ref is just too scared to make a change over such minor detail. It is horse crap because with technology today 9 times out of 10 if not 99 times out of 100 the 4 or 5 replay angles you see will be much more much more information for the ref then he could possibly gather with his own eyes in live speed while trying to position himself around 22 players.

 

[SteveBsFan]

I think the rule is, as long as his feet are in bounds, he can reach the ball out, and that will be his forward progress (i.e., where the ball is). It was pretty obvious that he extended the ball past the first down marker. BB's problem was giving the Ravens a measurement which gave them extra time to think about what they wanted to do. Of all the calls, I'm not sure why you're focusing on this one.

The problem with the 4th and 1 is that yea, it probably was a bad spot. That being said, there are countless bad spots through every season. The refs were clearly intimidated so they allowed a measurement when the spot wasn't even close, moved the ball despite no official view where the ball was when he was knocked out of bounds. Then, after they moved it, they simply declared a 1st down, didn't they? Aren't they supposed to re-measure?

The entire game was terrible.. horrible calls on both sides. Heading into the game I have been taking a 'don't blame the refs, it's not their fault', and it still isn't. It's the NFL's, so I'm definitely not watching any more games until they get their act together.

 

[wpdougie2180]

This is the rule book. http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/6_2012_Definitions.pdf

Rule 3 Article 1 and 2 indicate out of bounds is anything other than a player, official or pylon that is on or outside a boundary line. In other words, if ball or a player TOUCHES the boundary line they are out. Not when the ball or player is over the boundary line. In other words, the ball 'touches' of bounds at the moment the player in possession of the ball touches out of bounds. Article 3 and 3.12 specify that the ball is marked where IT is when the player touches out of bounds.

Rule 3, Section 21 Article 3
"Note: Ordinarily the out-of-bounds spot is the sport where the ball crossed a sideline. However, if a ball, while still within a boundary line, is declared out of bounds because of touching anything that is out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is on the yard line THROUGH THE SPOT OF THE BALL AT THE INSTANT OF SUCH TOUCHING." (Sorry for caps, don't know how to make bold or italic)

Rule 3, Section 21 Article 3.12
"Runner A1 touches the defensive team's pylon with any part of his body.
Ruling: Not out of bounds. The runner is not out of bounds until he touches anything other than a player, an official, or a pylon on or outside the boundary line. Position of the ball is determined by its position when the runner touches out of bounds."

So in your example above... yes they do 'get brownie points' in that circumstance. However it should also be noted that the solid out of bounds stripe is only 6 feet wide. The 3 yards in your example is equal to 9 feet. I have never seen a player dive forward out of bounds and land 9 feet away from the sideline. That would be remarkable.

Didn't they change the rule about that a couple years ago and called it the round the world rule or something like that since they said theoretically the lines stretched around the world as long as you don't touch out of bounds it's the reason you have to get the ball inside the pylon now and not just stretch out outside of the pylon and get the TD unless this only applies to TDs which would be stupid.

 

[Section103]

Didn't they change the rule about that a couple years ago and called it the round the world rule or something like that since they said theoretically the lines stretched around the world as long as you don't touch out of bounds it's the reason you have to get the ball inside the pylon now and not just stretch out outside of the pylon and get the TD unless this only applies to TDs which would be stupid.

That was taken from the official 2012 Rule Book from NFL.com. It has always been that the lines extend out into space. For scoring a touchdown, the rule book states that the ball needs to touch or be inside of the pylon. OR some part of the runner needs to touch the endzone, even if the ball is outside the pylon, providing that the runner is not down or out of bounds prior to the ball crossing the plane of the goal. For example a runner runs down the right sideline with ball in right hand, gets pushed as their left foot hits the endzone the ball is in their possession but not above the endzone. They fall out of bounds but they are passed the goal line. Touchdown.

But for ball placement on a non-scoring play, it's where the ball is when the player is actually out.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I agree with the sentiment that the most egregious part of that sequence was the refs caving to Harbaugh and bringing out the chains for a measurement for what clearly was a long 4th and 1. The refs are supposed to decline a request in such a case where it is obvious that the spot they marked it on the field was clearly not a first down.

If you watched Harbaugh, he is spending what is effectively a free time out to watch the replay to determine whether he wanted to challenge the spot. If it wasn't for the measurement, he would have had to call a play and watch the clock tick down until he had time to decide to throw the red flag.

The ball was out of bounds when he reached out.

There was ZERO video evidence to show otherwise.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I agree on the 4th and 1 challenge. There has to be conclusive evidence for the play to be overturned. We all know that by looking at the replay, it looked like forward progress gave him the first down but there's no camera right on top of this to show where exactly the ball crossed the out-of-bounds line. Inconclusive evidence. That never should have been overturned.

However, I feel like the Mayo penalty is the one that really hurt the most. At that point, I don't think the Ravens even had a first down in the game. That call got them into a rhythm. I think this was the most blown call too, it was no where near holding. It is even debatable.

Oh and Jones was blatantly being held by Oher on almost every play. No call.

After watching DEN-ATL last monday night, I thought it was impossible for the refs to do worse, turns out I was wrong. This game is the worst officiated game I've seen in my life.

Yeah, Pats defense was forcing 3 and outs and Flacco's confidence was shaken.

The refs kept giving them free First downs and gave life to Baltimores offence.




Honesty.....
Patriots Offense played better then Ravens Offense
Patriots Defense played better than Ravens Defense
The refs just didn't do a good job.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Rule 3 Article 1 and 2 indicate out of bounds is anything other than a player, official or pylon that is on or outside a boundary line. In other words, if ball or a player TOUCHES the boundary line they are out. Not when the ball or player is over the boundary line. In other words, the ball 'touches' of bounds at the moment the player in possession of the ball touches out of bounds. Article 3 and 3.12 specify that the ball is marked where IT is when the player touches out of bounds.

^^^

I Think that should clear it up for those thinking the refs made the right call.

When the ball is out, the player is out of bounds.


From the camera angles given, it was virtually IMPOSSIBLE to know when the ball crossed the out of bounds mark. You would have to have a birdseye view to know when it crossed, and that camera angle was not available.

The refs simply crumbled under pressure from Harbaugh and the crowd.... and gave the 1st down.

 

[nekromantique]

id say the call was right (well, overturning it and giving the first down).

but, as pointless as it may seem, the spot after replay was not. he barely got the first down but they marked it a yard or 2 further than what he got.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

QUESTIONABLE CALLS

On Baltimore’s final touchdown drive, cornerback/co-captain Devin McCourty was flagged for a defensive holding call against Ravens receiver Torrey Smith. McCourty and Smith may have brushed one another during the play, but there was never any actual holding by McCourty. The result should have been an incomplete pass and a 3rd-and-14 for the Ravens. Instead, they got an automatic 1st down to keep their scoring drive alive.

A few plays later, as defensive end Rob Ninkovich was bearing down of Baltimore QB Joe Flacco, Ravens left tackle Michael Oher appeared to commit an egregious holding penalty, grabbing Ninkovich around the throat as he blew by Oher, but no flag was thrown. The result of that pass play was a 27-yard gain by Ray Rice.

Right before Flacco’s second touchdown pass to Smith, defensive tackle Kyle Love and rookie end Chandler Jones combined for a 12-yard sack of Flacco, but it was nullified by a defensive holding call on linebacker Brandon Spikes. He did engage tight end Dennis Pitta within the allowable five-yard window, but Spikes did not look like he held Pitta. In fact, Pitta appeared to grab hold of Spikes and nearly toss him to the ground. Instead of being forced into a 3rd-and-long, the Ravens hit pay dirt and closed the gap to just two points, 30-28.

McCourty was covering Smith as tightly as you can be permitted to, but Flacco just made a great throw to a spot where only Smith could make a play on the ball. Credit the Ravens for that.

Baltimore safety Ed Reed’s shot to the head against wide receiver Julian Edelman in the first quarter should have been flagged. It looked like a helmet-to-helmet blow in real time, but Reed delivered his right forearm/shoulder to Edelman’s helmet, as replays clearly showed in slow-motion. Still, that’s against the rules, to hit a player in that region, so, a flag should have been thrown.

There were also numerous holding infractions that weren’t called against the Baltimore offensive line. But Baltimore had plenty of reasons to gripe, too, like when Ravens head coach John Harbaugh was penalized for trying to call a timeout.

We could nit-pick for hours, but suffice to say, the officials did a good job of angering both teams last night.

 

[Section103]

^^^

I Think that should clear it up for those thinking the refs made the right call.

When the ball is out, the player is out of bounds.


From the camera angles given, it was virtually IMPOSSIBLE to know when the ball crossed the out of bounds mark. You would have to have a birdseye view to know when it crossed, and that camera angle was not available.

The refs simply crumbled under pressure from Harbaugh and the crowd.... and gave the 1st down.

But the player is not out of bounds until they touch out of bounds. Where was the ball when the player TOUCHED the ground with any part of their body? THAT is when the ball was out.