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4th and 1 Challenge

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by MrNathanDrake, Sep 24, 2012.

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  1. MrNathanDrake

    MrNathanDrake On the Roster

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    #95 Jersey

    please do not merge this, as it deserves its own thread.

    This play. This drive. Changed the momentum of the game. Pats were up 13-0, easily moving the ball on offense and forcing 3 and outs on defense.

    First off, the Pats never should've been in that situation on that drive. It should've been a 3 and out. Then the refs called defensive holding on Mayo. The replay showed absolutely nothing. It was a phantom call on Mayo.

    This game could've (and probably should've) been a complete blow out. The Ravens were basically handed 2 free first downs on the drive where they got their first TD, making the game 13-7. The score was much closer than the play indicated. Pats should've gotten the ball back at 13-0, and wouldve had a chance at going up 20-0 in the 1st qtr. This drive (and the Ravens last TD drive) seemed like the refs were doing everything in their power to make sure the Patriots defense did not stop them. It was almost blatant. That's 14 points handed to the Ravens.

    Yes the calls were bad both ways, but it was about 65/35 in favor of the Ravens. And in much more opportune times for the Ravens as well (on 3rd downs when they should've been forced to punt).



    Now lets talk about the 4th and 1 challenge.



    Anquan Bolden is near the sidelines, and as he's going out of bounds, he reaches for the 1st down marker. Only the ball was in his hand and looked to be out of bounds short of the 1st down.

    The ref on the field marked him a yard short of 1st down.

    They overturned it giving BMore the 1st down....

    However, there was absolutely NO EVIDENCE that he actually got the 1st down. Unless they had a birds eye view of the play (which they didn't) it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly when and where the ball was out of bounds. None of the replays showed conclusive evidence. The only replays they had were from sideline angles, which literally make it impossible to see when the ball crossed the sideline boundary.

    The call on the field should've stood due to inconclusive evidence. Ravens wouldve been forced to punt, giving the Pats a chance to go up 20-0. Instead the Ravens score a TD against a frustrated defense in one of the biggest head scratcher drives of all time.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What got me most was that this ruined the "rhythm" of the game, there was no indication that the first down was even close.. and all it did was give the Ravens a very long time out, as the referees bumbled about like idiots..

    This has got to change, and change quickly..

    One of the things that I love about the NFL, is its rhythm and how is moves along, last night the came was herky jerky throughout.. no sure how these guys can play in this environment.
  3. State

    State Rookie

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    #70 Jersey

    You guys make good points. Esp. overturning a play when there's nothing anyone can point to as evidence. The fourth and one. That was home field advantage coming into play. There was really nothing to look at. It was like overturning the playoff game when Ben Watson opened a can of whooparse on Champ Bailey before he crossed the goalline during that long interception return for a TD. That wasn't overturned for the very reason that conclusive evidence was not to be had.

    Refs shouldn't become the story. That's the bottom line. They were too active in the second, arbitrarily calling things, not calling much more obvious stuff. Total disaster. The NFL is going to have to settle with the refs this week. Period.

    Does anyone have footage they can find of Smith getting the last TD, when it looked as if he pushed off pretty clearly against McCourty to get separation? On the replay, Collinsworth mentioned something about it.
  4. Joe Willie White Shoes

    Joe Willie White Shoes Rookie

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    Wahhhhhhh! Wahhhhhh!

    Stop whining. The bad calls went both ways. How about the Ravens interception on the Pats last drive that was wiped out by a BS illegal contact call???
  5. Joe Willie White Shoes

    Joe Willie White Shoes Rookie

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    Your team received every break in the world for a decade and a few go against you and you whine like 4 year olds.
  6. stevedogc

    stevedogc Rookie

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    It all started in the previous drive. There were 3 occassions where the Pats had the ball within the Ravens 30 yard line and the refs called back or negated 3 first downs, forcing the Pats to a FG.

    1. There was the hold by Gronk that negated a first down run. Collingsworth and Michaels were literally speechless at how bad the call was.

    2. The offensive PI on Edelman. How many times do we see a WR trying to come back for an underthrown ball only to have the defender make contact becuase he was not playing (or facing) the ball. But this time it was Edelmans fault?

    3. The 3rd down pass to Welker, on the opposite side of the field the Ravens corner (cant remember which player) slapped Edelman 3 times in the head, all in front of the Ref who was about 5 feet away and looking straight at them. No personal foul call.

    Im pissed at alot of the things the Pats did in this game, especially on the D and some playcalling. But for once I can't let bad play get in the way of how bad the refs were in this game. They clearly affected the outcome of the game.
  7. PatsSox363804

    PatsSox363804 Rookie

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    I remember that Edelman adamantly signaled first down Patriots then the refs threw the flag on him for OPI, it's almost like they were pissed that he did it and changed the call. No way you can call that offensive PI.

    The Mayo call I still haven't seen and that makes me think it was complete crap. That call changed the whole game. Also it seems like there was no flag until the fans started booing, the fans were completely in the refs heads last night.
  8. Nehalem

    Nehalem Rookie

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    I noticed that too. The flag seemed really late.
  9. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    That call (overturning the spot) was questionable, but there were 20 other calls that were much more obviously wrong.

    Gronk being tackled to the ground every time he got isolated on Ray Lewis downfield.

    Phantom hold on Gronk stopped a 1st half drive. Another drive stalled after Edelman dropped a 3rd down pass and took a forearm to the head. No call.

    Mayo's defensive holding call.

    Several calls on McCourty (thought the last one was probably right).

    Blantant missed holds on pass rushers all night: Jones, Ninkovich.... it seems only Wilfork getting held got noticed in the least. On the edge... anything goes. tackle the pass rusher? No problem.

    Quite obviously when the crowd got rowdy after the (correct) call that they disagreed with, when Welker was contacted far beyond 5 yds and nullified an INT, the refs were scared of ther crowd and were not throwing any flags against the Ravens from that point on.

    Planet Earth has seldom seen worse officiating.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  10. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    I think the rule is, as long as his feet are in bounds, he can reach the ball out, and that will be his forward progress (i.e., where the ball is). It was pretty obvious that he extended the ball past the first down marker. BB's problem was giving the Ravens a measurement which gave them extra time to think about what they wanted to do. Of all the calls, I'm not sure why you're focusing on this one.
  11. Section103

    Section103 Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    Honestly, in real time, I thought he had the first. On replay, I thought he had the first. He wasn't out until he hit the ground, when he hit the ground the ball was clearly passed the marker. It's where the ball is when you are declared out of bounds. It is NOT where the ball crosses out of bounds. They challenge plays for spot of the ball all the time and they use video to determine it. I don't think this was any different.

    What was bizarre is that they called for a measurement for a spot that was over a yard away from the first. When do they ever do that?! It just gave the Ravens a chance to watch replays to know whether to challenge. Smart move on the Ravens part.

    With that said, there were SO many other calls and non-calls that screwed the Pats... the Ravens too, but the Pats ones were so much worse given the situations they were in when they happened.
  12. Big-T

    Big-T On the Roster

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    #51 Jersey

    Joe Flacco and Ray Lewis got in the scabs mind with the outbursts they had last week. Add in a home crowd baying for blood...you get inept, under qualified people trying to do a job they clearly aren't upto and buckling under the pressure.
  13. Bill B.

    Bill B. Rookie

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    No way that there should have been a measurement. When they measured the ball was over 4 feet away. Then they review it and the camera angles are inconclusive. But I don't know of any football players whose arms are 4 feet long.

    Should change the rule. Either you request a measurement or challenge. You shouldn't get both since it amounted to a free timeout to the Ravens.
  14. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    By that logic, when you are pushed out of bounds, before you hit the ground three yards out of bounds you should extend the ball forward along the white stripe. I do not think this makes sense.

    You get credit for every inch the ball advances forward while the ball is over the field of play. That is why ball carriers shift the ball between hands to allow it to go inside the pylon at the goal line. You don't get brownie points for stretching the ball further on the white stripe three yards out of bounds. ever.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  15. Section103

    Section103 Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    This is the rule book. http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/6_2012_Definitions.pdf

    Rule 3 Article 1 and 2 indicate out of bounds is anything other than a player, official or pylon that is on or outside a boundary line. In other words, if ball or a player TOUCHES the boundary line they are out. Not when the ball or player is over the boundary line. In other words, the ball 'touches' of bounds at the moment the player in possession of the ball touches out of bounds. Article 3 and 3.12 specify that the ball is marked where IT is when the player touches out of bounds.

    Rule 3, Section 21 Article 3
    "Note: Ordinarily the out-of-bounds spot is the sport where the ball crossed a sideline. However, if a ball, while still within a boundary line, is declared out of bounds because of touching anything that is out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is on the yard line THROUGH THE SPOT OF THE BALL AT THE INSTANT OF SUCH TOUCHING." (Sorry for caps, don't know how to make bold or italic)

    Rule 3, Section 21 Article 3.12
    "Runner A1 touches the defensive team's pylon with any part of his body.
    Ruling: Not out of bounds. The runner is not out of bounds until he touches anything other than a player, an official, or a pylon on or outside the boundary line. Position of the ball is determined by its position when the runner touches out of bounds."

    So in your example above... yes they do 'get brownie points' in that circumstance. However it should also be noted that the solid out of bounds stripe is only 6 feet wide. The 3 yards in your example is equal to 9 feet. I have never seen a player dive forward out of bounds and land 9 feet away from the sideline. That would be remarkable.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  16. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with the sentiment that the most egregious part of that sequence was the refs caving to Harbaugh and bringing out the chains for a measurement for what clearly was a long 4th and 1. The refs are supposed to decline a request in such a case where it is obvious that the spot they marked it on the field was clearly not a first down.

    If you watched Harbaugh, he is spending what is effectively a free time out to watch the replay to determine whether he wanted to challenge the spot. If it wasn't for the measurement, he would have had to call a play and watch the clock tick down until he had time to decide to throw the red flag.
  17. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady On the Roster

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    #24 Jersey

    I cant believe I am going to do this but I am going to defend the Ref on this one.


    I have always contended that the video evidence thing is a crutch. How can one say that there was not enough video evidence there? In just about every angle they showed you could see the ball, you could see the yard markers, and you could see the field itself and the lines on the field. You are allowed to use a series of replays to determine a play as well. If that play didnt have enough evidence then no play does.

    IMO the crutch of enough video evidence held more weight in the past has they had less camera angles. But more importantly this should really only be used for those few plays that happen smack in the middle of 22 players where there are just to many guys in the way to see it and I guess the other rare occurance where there just are not enough angles.

    IMO they got this call right and furthermore I am fairly certain the Ravens were going to challenge even if the measurement wasnt granted.

    All that said I was as frustrated as the next guy at the time for allowing a measurement. The sticks were on one side of a solid line going across the field and the ball was spotted on the other side it was not needed and should not have been granted. Had the Refs actually got it right on the field the measurment would have allowed the Ravens to save a challenge in that spot but I think they were using it either way.
  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That was egregious. Its not even a judgment call, its a punch in the face that he chose to pretend didn't happen.
    The defensive holding or illegal contacts were awful but at least you could chalk that up to just seeing something differently.
  19. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It isnt "Enough" it is "indisputable".
  20. CityOfChampions

    CityOfChampions Rookie

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    If Reed gets called for his head to head hit on Edelman on the first drive that's probably a touchdown. The most ridiculous call to me was Flacco intentionally throwing it to the ground because he was about to be sacked somehow became a pass interference against the Patriots. Sorry if these were already mentioned I only skimmed the thread.
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