47 Locks Or Close

[BelichickFan]

I doubt either OT is ready to step in if Solder gets hurt. Fleming can and has. My feeling is that BB and Scar like him more than people here do - much like Cannon.

We'll see, it's a matter of whether they keep an extra OT. Keeping both draftees and Fleming is one more than last year's Fleming and Waddle. We've cut Fleming once and he made it to the PS, not sure he's a guy they'll be too concerned about cutting.

 

[meatface]

At this point, Lewis' only challenger on the roster would be Foster (though that could change by Camp). Then, too, during his (unseen by us) practice time in 2016, Foster may have been continuing the transition to slot receiver that he began during his last college season (Arizona State had even listed him as "WR" for the 2015 season).

I just wonder if they may go with someone who contributes more on ST than Lewis, but maybe he will do more returning kicks. I just cant see the team having 4 RB's active with none of them having a regular ST role and if Lewis is going to be inactive then I just cant see him being a lock.

 

[zydecochris]

I doubt either OT is ready to step in if Solder gets hurt. Fleming can and has. My feeling is that BB and Scar like him more than people here do - much like Cannon.

In another thread, I was told he had played some OG for the Pats, too, which I hadn't even noticed. That kind of versatility, if it's true, will help him.

I don't expect both Fleming and Waddle back.

Agreed on Fleming being more valued by BB than us (he was given a $1.8M tender offer, by the way). Fleming was drafted as a super-smart (Stanford Aeronautical Engineering degree) big powerful RT (only). Not amazingly nimble, best at run blocking. He played plenty of snaps as a rookie, then was beat out by Mike Williams in his second year and didn't get back on the roster until Solder went down, and like much of the OL, he didn't play great that year. Last year I thought he had really improved under Scar and he played plenty of snaps as a sixth blocker and back-up tackle. To his credit, although he is still more natural as a sixth tackle or RT, he has turned himself into more of a swing tackle as opposed to a RT or sixth blocker only.

Many posters seem to be writing Fleming off now that Garcia is in, but I don't see it. Garcia is a LT only, he is nimble but not very powerful. From what I've read, Garcia is a much better pass protector than a run blocker, so it would be a (very pleasant) surprise if he improved so much that he became the new sixth blocker.

I expect that Garcia is in training for a role as back-up LT or perhaps the LT of the future. I expect Fleming to remain as the back-up RT and sixth blocker.

 

[maineman209]

I just wonder if they may go with someone who contributes more on ST than Lewis, but maybe he will do more returning kicks. I just cant see the team having 4 RB's active with none of them having a regular ST role and if Lewis is going to be inactive then I just cant see him being a lock.

I don't think any of the active RBs will have a substantial, regular ST role aside from returning. Typically they don't, certainly not on coverage units. In 2013 and 2015, when Bolden was called upon to actively participate as an RB, his 15-20 ST snaps/game were reduced to a handful.

 

[maineman209]

Agreed on Fleming being more valued by BB than us (he was given a $1.8M tender offer, by the way). Fleming was drafted as a super-smart (Stanford Aeronautical Engineering degree) big powerful RT (only). Not amazingly nimble, best at run blocking. He played plenty of snaps as a rookie, then was beat out by Mike Williams in his second year and didn't get back on the roster until Solder went down, and like much of the OL, he didn't play great that year. Last year I thought he had really improved under Scar and he played plenty of snaps as a sixth blocker and back-up tackle. To his credit, although he is still more natural as a sixth tackle or RT, he has turned himself into more of a swing tackle as opposed to a RT or sixth blocker only.

Many posters seem to be writing Fleming off now that Garcia is in, but I don't see it. Garcia is a LT only, he is nimble but not very powerful. From what I've read, Garcia is a much better pass protector than a run blocker, so it would be a (very pleasant) surprise if he improved so much that he became the new sixth blocker.

I expect that Garcia is in training for a role as back-up LT or perhaps the LT of the future. I expect Fleming to remain as the back-up RT and sixth blocker.

Fleming may be this era's Russ Hochstein.

 

[mgteich]

We'll see, it's a matter of whether they keep an extra OT. Keeping both draftees and Fleming is one more than last year's Fleming and Waddle. We've cut Fleming once and he made it to the PS, not sure he's a guy they'll be too concerned about cutting.

I don't think that we are carrying 5 OT's. I'm not sure that we have ever done that. Besides, roster spots are tough with 3 QB's, 4 RB's, 1 FB, 5 WR and Slater.

I think that Garcia is a lock because (as a 3rd) he will be given a year to develop as a contributor. Our 6th rounder is competing with Fleming, Waddle and perhaps Williams for the 4th OT roster spot. IMHO, Fleming has a decided advantage over these players.

 

[BelichickFan]

Our 6th rounder is competing with Fleming, Waddle and perhaps Williams for the 4th OT roster spot. IMHO, Fleming has a decided advantage over these players.

We already cut Fleming once. He has McDermott and Rich to compete with. He has a serious battle on his hands expecially if Garcia looks good. If Garcia doesn't we may have to keep Fleming as the top backup, if Garcia looks good, Flemings' lack of upside may cost him.

 

[mgteich]

We already cut Fleming once. He has McDermott and Rich to compete with. He has a serious battle on his hands expecially if Garcia looks good. If Garcia doesn't we may have to keep Fleming as the top backup, if Garcia looks good, Flemings' lack of upside may cost him.

Yes, if Garcia shows that he is ready to play and protect the franchise, then Fleming is expendable. I won't hold my breath.

BTW, you can keep repeating that Fleming was cut. There may have been an agreement that he was coming back. In any case, the team believes that he is worth $1.8M a year, and is capable of backing up Solder. Of course, Garcia can show that he is ready. I don't think that anyone believed this going into the draft.

 

[BelichickFan]

BTW, you can keep repeating that Fleming was cut. There may have been an agreement that he was coming back.

He was released and went through waivers. Agreement or not, any team could have claimed him so they were willing to lose him.

 

[zydecochris]

We already cut Fleming once. He has McDermott and Rich to compete with. He has a serious battle on his hands expecially if Garcia looks good. If Garcia doesn't we may have to keep Fleming as the top backup, if Garcia looks good, Flemings' lack of upside may cost him.

Fleming was a surprise cut in his second year when Mike Williams beat him out for the role of sixth lineman / Blocking TE. However, Fleming looked much, much better last year, clearly beating out Waddle as the third OT (and with Williams going to IR). Williams has always been a bit of a binky for me, but with him coming back from a major knee injury I think he may have a steep climb to beat out Fleming again, who looked much improved last year under Scar.

 

[mgteich]

Fleming was a surprise cut in his second year when Mike Williams beat him out for the role of sixth lineman / Blocking TE. However, Fleming looked much, much better last year, clearly beating out Waddle as the third OT (and with Williams going to IR). Williams has always been a bit of a binky for me, but with him coming back from a major knee injury I think he may have a steep climb to beat out Fleming again, who looks improved.

Someone needs to be the Game Day backup to the OT's. IMHO, Garcia is very unlikely to be that player (even though he is a lock to make the 53). The backup could be Fleming. It also could be Waddle who was injured last year.

For me, Williams is a different discussion. IMHO, he needs to be discussed as a TE.

 

[zydecochris]

Someone needs to be the Game Day backup to the OT's. IMHO, Garcia is very unlikely to be that player (even though he is a lock to make the 53). The backup could be Fleming. It also could be Waddle who was injured last year.

For me, Williams is a different discussion. IMHO, he needs to be discussed as a TE.

Agreed on both points. Williams was a failure as a OT in Detroit, so I've always argued he should be considered a TE instead of a OT (he was actually a pretty good TE at Alabama), and here I'm talking about him as a OT myself.

 

[unoriginal]

Yes, if Garcia shows that he is ready to play and protect the franchise, then Fleming is expendable. I won't hold my breath.

BTW, you can keep repeating that Fleming was cut. There may have been an agreement that he was coming back. In any case, the team believes that he is worth $1.8M a year, and is capable of backing up Solder. Of course, Garcia can show that he is ready. I don't think that anyone believed this going into the draft.

The team doesn't necessarily believe he is worth $1.8 million. $1.8 million simply happens to correspond with the lowest tender they could offer him with RFA-interest-reducing compensation attached... the original round tender.

Offering such a tender would also be consistent with the Pats keeping Fleming as competition through camp, while expecting better and cheaper options to beat him out.

Both Garcia and McDermott check off Scar OT boxes in ways Fleming does not, and they traded up to draft both these players. The Pats even have an inside coaching connection to McDermott (Adrian Klemm was his line coach). Garcia is a shoo-in, and I have to give McDermott at least even odds to beat out Fleming given the history. And I went into the draft expecting Fleming to be on the team.

 

[mgteich]

The team doesn't necessarily believe he is worth $1.8 million. $1.8 million simply happens to correspond with the lowest tender they could offer him with RFA-interest-reducing compensation attached... the original round tender.

Offering such a tender would also be consistent with the Pats keeping Fleming as competition through camp, while expecting better and cheaper options to beat him out.

Both Garcia and McDermott check off Scar OT boxes in ways Fleming does not, and they traded up to draft both these players. The Pats even have an inside coaching connection to McDermott (Adrian Klemm was his line coach). Garcia is a shoo-in, and I have to give McDermott at least even odds to beat out Fleming given the history. And I went into the draft expecting Fleming to be on the team.

To be clear, you believe that it is at least even odds that Garcia will be good enough this year for the team to trust him as the Game Day backup at OT, protecting the franchise?

BTW, Dante Academy folks like McDermott usually end up on the Practice Squad (our team or someone else's). It seems very unlikely that he is worth a roster spot. If Garcia is ready, then we might not carry a 4th OT, or that player might be a hybrid OT/TE like Williams.

 

[BelichickFan]

To be clear, you believe that it is at least even odds that Garcia will be good enough this year for the team to trust him as the Game Day backup at OT, protecting the franchise?

I think I would trust him more than Fleming to be honest. Garcia's strength is pass blocking and he's way more athletic than Fleming. Worst case we could give him TE help but I'd be just as nervous with Fleming. Not sure how much more athletic Fleming is (or isn't) since being drafted but he was a total slug when we drafted him.

Remember, at a lowish level, Garcia allowed no sacks last year and, I think, one in his college career.

 

[unoriginal]

To be clear, you believe that it is at least even odds that Garcia will be good enough this year for the team to trust him as the Game Day backup at OT, protecting the franchise?

BTW, Dante Academy folks like McDermott usually end up on the Practice Squad (our team or someone else's). It seems very unlikely that he is worth a roster spot. If Garcia is ready, then we might not carry a 4th OT, or that player might be a hybrid OT/TE like Williams.

At least. I don't fully trust either Fleming or Garcia, and believe either would require significant tight end attention.

The Pats just spent 50% of their draft picks on OT. Both backups have been put on notice.

 

[The Gr8est]

Sweet roster. I wouldnt put Ninko and King on the lock list, and I would probably add Roberts.

Agreed. Nink is one who I see being a surprise cut or trade. He could start slipping at his age, and is at the age where the Pats should be looking for his replacement anyway.

 

[patsinthesnow]

First go at it way before TC:

QB (3) T.Brady, J.Garoppolo, J.Brissett
RB (5) M.Gillislee, J.White, R.Burkhead, D.Lewis, J.Develin
WR (6) J.Edelman, C.Hogan, B.Cooks, M.Mitchell, D.Amendola, M.Slater
TE (3) R.Gronkowski, D.Allen, J.O'Shaughnessy
C (1) D.Andrews
G (3) S.Mason, J.Thuney, T.Karras
T (4) N.Solder, M.Cannon, A.Garcia, C.Fleming
DE (4) T.Flowers, K.Ealy, D.Rivers, D.Wise
DT (4) M.Brown, A.Branch, V.Valentine, L.Guy
ILB(3) D.Hightower, E.Roberts, H.Langi
OLB(3) K.VanNoy, R.Ninkovich, S.McClellin
CB (5) S.Gilmore, M.Butler, E.Rowe, C.Jones, J.Jones
SS (3) P.Chung, J.Richards, N.Ebner
FS (2) D.McCourty, D.Harmon
ST (3) S.Gostkowski, R.Allen, J.Cardona

Total players: 52

- Amendola has 1.35 million of his contract guaranteed. Carr seems destined for the PS
- Fleming vs. McDermott vs. Rich for the 4th tackle spot will be a fun camp battle
- Leaving a spot for an interior OL spot (Maybe Fusco?)
- Langi looks like the clear favorite to continue the streak of an UDFA making the team and potentially even earning playing time. Augusta has an outside shot as a backup/successor to Branch
- Love the CB group: probably the best trio in the NFL alongside the Broncos & Giants. Hopefully Cyrus can rebound & watch out for J. Jones who shined at camp last season.
- Richards vs. the UDFAs should be another good camp battle


Maybe the best roster of the BB era with a one clear weakness at LB. Fortunately, that position has been mitigated with our multiple 3 CB & 3 S looks.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Here's my 53

3 qb - Brady, Jimmy G and Brissett
4 rb - Gillislee, Burkhead, White and Lewis
1 FB - Develin
5 WR - Cooks, Edelman, Hogan, Mitchell and Amendola
3 TE - Gronk, Allen and Shaughnessy
1 C - Andrews
4 G - Thuney, Mason, Karras and Douglas
4 T - Solder, Cannon, Fleming and Garcia
5 DE - Flowers, Ninkovich, Ealy, Rivers and Wise
4 DT - Branch, Brown, Valentine and Guy
6 LB - Hightower, E. Roberts, Van Noy, McClellin, Freeney and B.King
5 CB - M. Butler, Gilmore, Rowe, C. Jones and J. Jones
4 S - D. McCourty, P. Chung, D. Harmon and J. Richards
4 ST - Gostkowski, Allen, Cardona and Slater

A couple of obvious differences. Lengel over Shaughnessy, Grissom over Guy or Wise, Ebner instead of Richards.

A. I can see a lb being acquired from another team over Freeney.

B. I can see an interior OL acquired over Douglas

1. Others have mentioned too. Does it make sense to keep D. Lewis now?
Or deal him.

2. Is Jimmy G still in play? I don't think so. Who knows? Arizona maybe??

 

[The Gr8est]

So let me get this straight, the NFL* stole the Pats #1 pick last year through an offense made up out of whole cloth, and one year later, in a deep draft, the Pats only draft four players, and the first choice wasn't until the 3rd round.

Yet here we are discussing maybe the deepest roster in Pats history, and talk of going to and winning another Superbowl is considered very reasonable.

Do I have that right?