A true indicator of how good Butler has become...

BritPat · Dec 31, 2015

Let's get away from measurables, not every 225lb, 6'4 QB is Tom Brady.

Revis' best traits are the smoothest hips and back pedal you've ever seen, which allow him to stay with the receiver in transition. He keeps his leverage, his position and he knows virtually where the ball is going. The latter came with experience, the first two is all technique.

There's a lot of talent needed to be Revis, but it's not all talent.

wolverinejoe80 · Dec 31, 2015

IMO butler is about 2 tier below the so called 'elite qb' 1st tier would be guys like prime champ, prime woodson, prime revis. butler is not and will never be in that class.

but he is good enough to command 10 mil IMO. he can be our #1 anytime anyday as long as we have good squad

Brady6 · Dec 31, 2015

A Defiant Goose said:
Revis would've been useful against Steve Smith in the divisional round. Wish he had played that game.

I wish you would have watched that game....

You would have seen that Revis allowed a touchdown and picked up a holding penalty and a pass interference penalty covering Smith.

If you are going to quote my posts with sarcastic asinine responses I do not mind but at least do a little leg work first. I mean Steve Smith is 36 years old in what NFL is that an elite WR in his prime?

Brady6 · Dec 31, 2015

wolverinejoe80 said:
IMO butler is about 2 tier below the so called 'elite qb' 1st tier would be guys like prime champ, prime woodson, prime revis. butler is not and will never be in that class.

but he is good enough to command 10 mil IMO. he can be our #1 anytime anyday as long as we have good squad

How do you know he will never be in that class? He made the pro bowl in his first year as a starter. I would hold off on saying what class a second year pro bowl player will and will not ever be in.

HawaiianPatsfan · Dec 31, 2015

JMC00 said:
I just really don't get the people that continue to cite height and speed as knock on Butler.

Well speed does matter to an extent in terms of a CB's ceiling. Butler will never be that full shut down corner you'd get in a Revis or Sanders, or patrick Peterson. Not only are these guys elite in technique, they also have that sub 4.4- 4.3 top end speed. If you were to put Butler on an elite WR like Julio jones, or a Randy moss like player, no matter how good his technique may become, in time that difference in speed would shine through. Those elite speed WR's would eventually make a big play, and potentially a TD. Butler has the skills to be a top corner, but the different between great, and greatest of all time talk in DB's is that top end speed.

aluminum seats · Dec 31, 2015

aluminum seats said:
Butler is as tall or taller than Darelle Revis, Chris Harris Jr., Brandon Flowers, and Vontae Davis, and he's as fast or faster as Davis, Flowers, Harris, and Richard Sherman. Just sayin'.

OK, now @HawaiianPatsfan disagrees....want to explain why?

Anyone want to help out here on what can be disagreed with here?

SammyBlueCat · Dec 31, 2015

Some posters are comparing Butler to Revis. Do not forget that Butler learned from Revis.

WaterfallJumper · Dec 31, 2015

aluminum seats said:
OK, now @HawaiianPatsfan disagrees....want to explain why?

Anyone want to help out here on what can be disagreed with here?

Official pro day measurements:

Dates: 03/12/14 03/12/14@Alabama
Height: 5096
Weight: 187
40 Yrd Dash: 4.62
20 Yrd Dash: 2.75
10 Yrd Dash: 1.62 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 13
Vertical Jump: 33 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'10"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.27
3-Cone Drill: 7.20

40 Time Range: 4.62-4.64

A Defiant Goose · Dec 31, 2015

Brady6 said:
I wish you would have watched that game....

You would have seen that Revis allowed a touchdown and picked up a holding penalty and a pass interference penalty covering Smith.

If you are going to quote my posts with sarcastic asinine responses I do not mind but at least do a little leg work first. I mean Steve Smith is 36 years old in what NFL is that an elite WR in his prime?

I'm not sure if you understand what I was doing in my post

wolverinejoe80 · Dec 31, 2015

Brady6 said:
How do you know he will never be in that class? He made the pro bowl in his first year as a starter. I would hold off on saying what class a second year pro bowl player will and will not ever be in.

aside from natural instincts and all - for me it's all about the body type and being physically gifted. prime woodson was just athletic as hell, and he could just do it all in a 6ft 1 frame with a long limbs, and he was just so damn smart so he could play any position. champ was fast as hell and his recovery speed was just sick. speed kills. revis is physical freak and just fluid without giving up the power.

butler can outwork anybody and just get better, but i just don't think he will reach that HOF status because IMO he isn't physically gifted like those elite DBs i mentioned. butler would go down as hall of very very good IMO, but not a HOFer.

imagine we had prime woodson in this defense. i have no doubt in my mind woodson would've won the DPOY.

gmti-photoj1998q1m01t02h13174500.jff.jpg

woodson picking off forehead. 39 year old folks.

HawaiianPatsfan · Dec 31, 2015

aluminum seats said:
OK, now @HawaiianPatsfan disagrees....want to explain why?

Anyone want to help out here on what can be disagreed with here?

Because Vontee Davis ran a 4.49 at the combine, and and a 4.40 at his proday.
CHJ also ran a 4.48 at his pro day.
I watch butler run and Im fairly certain 9/10 times he would struggle to run under 4.5. He might come across the board with a 4.48-4.9 1 out of 10 tries. Im not saying he runs a 4.65 like he did at his pro day, but he doesnt run in the 4.4 range. On average he's in the 4.5 range, which isn't the end of the world.
Butler probably runs a really good 10 and 2o yard time, but he falls flat right after that. Yes Technique and everything play into effect when running the combine, and Im sure Butler wasn't a pro track star. However I can tell you confidently from watching him play, he does not have the Elite top end speed of a true #1, Man to Man, all on a island, elite Corner. Sure he can be great, but this is one portion of his game he (and the team) will always have to work around.

HawaiianPatsfan · Dec 31, 2015

wolverinejoe80 said:
aside from natural instincts and all - for me it's all about the body type and being physically gifted. prime woodson was just athletic as hell, and he could just do it all in a 6ft 1 frame with a long limbs, and he was just so damn smart so he could play any position. champ was fast as hell and his recovery speed was just sick. speed kills. revis is physical freak and just fluid without giving up the power.

butler can outwork anybody and just get better, but i just don't think he will reach that HOF status because IMO he isn't physically gifted like those elite DBs i mentioned. butler would go down as hall of very very good IMO, but not a HOFer.

imagine we had prime woodson in this offense. i have no doubt in my mind woodson would've won the DPOY.

I couldn't agree more.

BradyFTW! · Dec 31, 2015

aluminum seats said:
Butler is as tall or taller than Darelle Revis, Chris Harris Jr., Brandon Flowers, and Vontae Davis, and he's as fast or faster as Davis, Flowers, Harris, and Richard Sherman. Just sayin'.

While that's true, I'm not sure that that's a good way to state someone's physical attributes. I mean, you could make it seem like I'm an athletic specimen by saying I'm bigger than Welker and faster than Wilfork.

That said, your overall point is right I think. Butler's size/speed combo won't keep him from being a shutdown corner. If his ceiling ends up being lower than that, it'll be for other reasons.

BradyFTW! · Dec 31, 2015

HawaiianPatsfan said:
Because Vontee Davis ran a 4.49 at the combine, and and a 4.40 at his proday.
CHJ also ran a 4.48 at his pro day.
I watch butler run and Im fairly certain 9/10 times he would struggle to run under 4.5. He might come across the board with a 4.48-4.9 1 out of 10 tries. Im not saying he runs a 4.65 like he did at his pro day, but he doesnt run in the 4.4 range. On average he's in the 4.5 range, which isn't the end of the world.
Butler probably runs a really good 10 and 2o yard time, but he falls flat right after that. Yes Technique and everything play into effect when running the combine, and Im sure Butler wasn't a pro track star. However I can tell you confidently from watching him play, he does not have the Elite top end speed of a true #1, Man to Man, all on a island, elite Corner. Sure he can be great, but this is one portion of his game he (and the team) will always have to work around.

The Patriots clocked Butler at 4.4, and after watching him for a full year it's pretty clear that's a better representation of his true speed than his 4.6 pro day.

It was Josh Boyer, the Patriots' defensive back coach. He could offer Butler a tryout the next weekend in Foxborough. The Patriots would fly Butler to New England, but Butler would have to sign a waiver in order to participate.

"I don't think he was even off the plane and on the ground for half an hour before they had him run the 40. And he ran a 4.4, and they called and said they were going to keep him," Simpson said.

HawaiianPatsfan · Dec 31, 2015

BradyFTW! said:
The Patriots clocked Butler at 4.4, and after watching him for a full year it's pretty clear that's a better representation of his true speed than his 4.6 pro day.

It was Josh Boyer, the Patriots' defensive back coach. He could offer Butler a tryout the next weekend in Foxborough. The Patriots would fly Butler to New England, but Butler would have to sign a waiver in order to participate.

"I don't think he was even off the plane and on the ground for half an hour before they had him run the 40. And he ran a 4.4, and they called and said they were going to keep him," Simpson said.

Of course his agent said that, however in the ESPN article he personally said that they never showed him what he ran when NE clocked him. Im going to take butlers word on this.

After the draft came and went, New England, as promised, called him in. Butler performed all the same drills he did at the Alabama pro day, and after he completed the 40-yard dash, he glanced over, hoping for a sign. The stone-faced staff gave no indication either way.

"It had to be faster than a 4.6," Butler says, "or I wouldn't be here."

The only thing he said was he's "Never ran slower the a 4.5"

He could run in the high 4.49 time zones, but I'm willing to bet that if he were to run it 10 times, at least 70 % of them would be in the 4.5 range.

mosi's man · Dec 31, 2015

Enough with the 40 times. It's just ridiculous to watch an NFL game and try to extrapolate a player's 40 time. The truth is that none of us truly know the relative speeds of Revis and Butler especially when they are in uniform. To me, Butler looks physically a little smaller but appears every bit as fast. Is my assessment accurate? Who knows? But either way the biggest difference, in my opinion, comes down to Revis's obviously superior technique and instincts. Butler still bites on double moves and guesses too often, although he's relatively inexperienced compared to Revis, Woodson, et al in their prime. Will he develop Revis's technique and instincts over time? Maybe, but probably not, given that Revis is already a sure-fire hall-of-famer and few players, regardless of their promise, attain that level. But to suggest that Butler is either too small or too slow is not verifiable at this juncture, and probably beside the point.

Brady6 · Jan 1, 2016

BradyFTW! said:
While that's true, I'm not sure that that's a good way to state someone's physical attributes. I mean, you could make it seem like I'm an athletic specimen by saying I'm bigger than Welker and faster than Wilfork.

That said, your overall point is right I think. Butler's size/speed combo won't keep him from being a shutdown corner. If his ceiling ends up being lower than that, it'll be for other reasons.

If you go by the pro day numbers, he is nearly identical to Joe Haden in every athletic metric.

Brady6 · Jan 1, 2016

HawaiianPatsfan said:
Of course his agent said that, however in the ESPN article he personally said that they never showed him what he ran when NE clocked him. Im going to take butlers word on this.

HawaiianPatsfan said:
After the draft came and went, New England, as promised, called him in. Butler performed all the same drills he did at the Alabama pro day, and after he completed the 40-yard dash, he glanced over, hoping for a sign. The stone-faced staff gave no indication either way.

"It had to be faster than a 4.6," Butler says, "or I wouldn't be here."

The only thing he said was he's "Never ran slower the a 4.5"

He could run in the high 4.49 time zones, but I'm willing to bet that if he were to run it 10 times, at least 70 % of them would be in the 4.5 range.

Forty times have a lot to do with technique. Butler not being a combine invite and a last minute pro day invite limited his ability to prepare.

Here is a nice write up by Reiss on Butler’s athletic ability.

There are so many notable and important things that happen during a New England Patriots two-hour practice, but some days, one thing so clearly stands out above the rest that it simply makes you say, "Wow."

That's how I'd describe the team's Monday practice, specifically with cornerback Malcolm Butler.

Once again locking down Darrelle Revis' old left cornerback spot, Butler showed a little bit of everything in a performance that had me thinking about days watching practice with ESPN NFL Insider Field Yates and looking at players through more of a scouting lens.

Reactive athleticism? Butler showed the ability to mirror receivers, as I watched him blanket receiver Josh Boyce on one play as Boyce attempted to change directions over the middle.

Ball skills? His one-handed interception on a Tom Brady pass over the middle certainly qualifies.

Explosion? Jumping a short crossing route by Boyce over the middle to intercept a Brady pass decisively showed that aspect of his game.

Long speed? Butler displayed it by running stride for stride with first-year receiver Jonathan Krause (who reportedly ran a 4.37 time in the 40 at his pro day in 2014) along the right sideline.

Leaping ability? Butler rose high into the air after running stride for stride with Krause, timing his leap perfectly as Tom Brady's high-arcing pass arrived.

Technique? It seemed to be picture-perfect, as Butler turned at just the right moment to make the play on the long bomb intended for Krause.

Added value? At one point, he also scooped up a blocked field goal and would have been headed to the other end zone for a touchdown.

This isn't to overstate one practice, and also doesn't overlook that Butler is far from a finished product and there's still a long way to go. But sometimes you just see something in a player and say "That looks different than most everyone else." It was similar to the way I used to feel watching receiver Randy Moss run down the field at times.

Butler has a little of that "it looks different than everyone else" in him, and those in attendance Monday for the full-pads practice got a chance to see it themselves.

New England Patriots CB Malcolm Butler provides 'wow!' moments at practice

Brady6 · Jan 1, 2016

reamer said:
Official pro day measurements:

Dates: 03/12/14 03/12/14@Alabama
Height: 5096
Weight: 187
40 Yrd Dash: 4.62
20 Yrd Dash: 2.75
10 Yrd Dash: 1.62 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 13
Vertical Jump: 33 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'10"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.27
3-Cone Drill: 7.20

40 Time Range: 4.62-4.64

Yet the Patriots list him at 5’11” 190lbs. We have a heightgate..

Brady6 · Jan 1, 2016

wolverinejoe80 said:
aside from natural instincts and all - for me it's all about the body type and being physically gifted. prime woodson was just athletic as hell, and he could just do it all in a 6ft 1 frame with a long limbs, and he was just so damn smart so he could play any position. champ was fast as hell and his recovery speed was just sick. speed kills. revis is physical freak and just fluid without giving up the power.

butler can outwork anybody and just get better, but i just don't think he will reach that HOF status because IMO he isn't physically gifted like those elite DBs i mentioned. butler would go down as hall of very very good IMO, but not a HOFer.

imagine we had prime woodson in this defense. i have no doubt in my mind woodson would've won the DPOY.

woodson picking off forehead. 39 year old folks.

A true indicator of how good Butler has become...

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