Lack of improvement issue

One of the things BB preaches on his teams is improvement every week generally his teams get better as they go into the year and he likes to set it up like that. This year is going to be a little different in that regard though. This year compared to past years will not be able to improve much. The Patriots are a young team but also a veteran team.

Lets look at all areas

QB - No improvement. Brady will play well or play badly but he has no room to grow right now.
TE - No improvement. Gronk is a beast but he is what he is. They have other TEs but they are vets too and are clearly established players. Chandler is the upgrade and it could be argued he will get better as the year goes. I don't see it. He will play his role but at this point in his career he is what he is.
WR - No improvement. Lafell coming back is an improvement in health and not talent which is not what I am talking about. Amendola/Edelman are proven commodities and just need to stay healthy. Dobson/Martin both have room to grow but will barely be on the field once Lafell is back. It will be no improve to so slight it is barely worth mentioning
RB - The only improvement here is Lewis not fumbling Blount will be blount and Lewis has his skill set already figured out and looks like he has been playing with Brady for years. The limited route tree of RBs means the learning curve is pretty much done.
OL - People will point to this and mention the youth and improvement which can be made here. That is true. This is one of the areas which can be improved. But how much? This line is not just playing well on a curve it is playing well in generally. The better you play the less room for improvement there is and this line to me is somehow already playing like one of the better units in the NFL. When Stork comes back how much will he upgrade Andrews really? Mason/Jackson have proven to be capable pass defenders already against good DLs and have shown the ability to run block. At this point Wendell would probably be a down grade or no upgrade at all to be honest. The fact is they are not giving up much pressure and are opening decent enough holes when asked to. The run blocking can be the main improvement here but IDK how much really. Seems average already. The IOL is playing near as well as any and ths OTs are vets and will not improve at this point


On D...

DE - Not much to say here. Jones, Nink, Sheard are all vets and will not improve anymore at this point. Rookies like White/Grissom/Johnson will struggle for snaps.
DT - This is the single biggest area which can improve. Easley/Brown both are talents clearly with their best football ahead of them. I am watching this very intently.
LB - No improvement. Collins/Hightower will see the most snaps and at this point they pretty much are the players they are. Mayo for depth might get better as the year goes on but could be as good as he will be till he follow comes back from his injury (if he does... or perhaps he has already... not seeing him enough to know for sure). Just signed a depth LB that will see the field very little year if the top 3 don't change.
S - A tiny bit of improvement? McCourty is McCourty not much to say here. Chung is established with what he does well and what he does not. Harmon is no rookie so i wonder how much we will see him grow this year. The question for me is Richardson. Will he still snaps and improve upon either Chung or Harmon? Who knows. Not a sure thing at this point.
CB - This is an area with room for improvement but maybe not as much as we think. I have watched Butler all 3 games and though there are clear things he can clean up he is already to me a CB1. I don't see him as having the ability to be a shut down CB but could be wrong. I wonder just how much he can improve from where he is? Obviously some but he is already pretty good. Brown as a vet is established and just needs to stay healthy. Ryan is inconsistent and proven to be unproven. Will have good games and bad. Oddly enough (baring a FA signing) if this unit wants to improve the biggest improvement to me right now looks like it will come from Coleman. Coleman has the measurables and showed a few good things. He is young and raw and so has the most possible of the 3.

So yes there are areas we can improve as the year goes but I question how much that is. On offense it seems little to none (not that we need to improve there lol). The Defense does have a few areas to improve but it is a majority of veterans that have mostly hit their ceilings or close to.

Then again I doubt we need to improve too much to win the SB I just thought it be interesting to point out how different this year is from past years.

So basically any player over 24 has no chance of getting better? I think you may be misunderstanding BB's preaching of improvement. You seem to be focused on each individual's talent level improving week by week. BB's preaching of improvement each week throughout the season is more in regards to execution and growing as a unit. As well as our offense has played there has still been some missed throws, drops, bad technique on the Oline. Improvement on those aspects of the game is what BB is referring to, and there is still plenty of realisitic improvement to expect of this team based on some very correctable mistakes/flaws shown in these first 3 games.

This year won't be different from any other. BB will identify the areas of weakness and will have the team working to improve in those areas as the season progresses. There is a lot of youth on this team and most of the guys are coming off of their first SB appearance/victory. There's still a lot to learn and a lot on which to focus and get better at doing. It is only week three and we have heard BB and TB talk about not really knowing what you have until around November. That's when the true grind begins. What the product looks like now will probably resemble something different around that time.

We should be careful not to fall victim to the moment. I'm all about talking about what is happening now, but I caution looking too far ahead. Yes, we've looked good. Yes, it appears we have a really good team, potentially great offensively. However, it's only been three weeks. Jacksonville is far from meaningful contention, so hanging 51 on them on Sunday, though still a great thing, should be kept in it's proper perspective anyway. We have a good team. It appears they are playing on a mission, and I see no SB hangover to speak of at this time. But it's a long season with a lot of football to be played.

Deflatemyballs said:

So basically any player over 24 has no chance of getting better? I think you may be misunderstanding BB's preaching of improvement. You seem to be focused on each individual's talent level improving week by week. BB's preaching of improvement each week throughout the season is more in regards to execution and growing as a unit. As well as our offense has played there has still been some missed throws, drops, bad technique on the Oline. Improvement on those aspects of the game is what BB is referring to, and there is still plenty of realistic improvement to expect of this team based on some very correctable mistakes/flaws shown in these first 3 games.

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I did not say no player over 24 can not improved. I am simply remarking that the most improvement happens in years 1 and 2 and sometimes 3. A player who is 27 or 28 can improve but it is usually very slight compared to a player that is a rookie or 2nd year player. Also I did not say this team can not improve with its play. I am saying compared to years past it is starting ahead of where it has so we will see less improvement. It is not a bad thing; just different.

I am not misunderstanding what BB means. Improvement is as a unit and as an individual. This is not something I do not know. Playing as a unit though 99% of the time is based on understanding your roll within the play and effective communication of any adjustments. I would argue 2 people who have never played together can do as well as 2 played who have played together for 10 years assuming both understand their specific job on the play and communicate any pre-snap adjustments clearly. There is very little improvisation in football in which having a feel for what the other guy might do would help. And when there is that is mostly for a QB to his WR and Brady has worked with Gronk/Edelman/Lafell before so that unit already has that experience.

BB always talked about improving execution as he should. However execution will simply never be perfect. You will always have dropped passes and bad technique and missed throw. The amount of those you have is based on the quality of the players you have and their personal ability. Edelman will drop passes. Not much you can do to completely eliminate it. The only way to eliminate it is to become better individually so you catch those passes. However I would say he is already working pretty much as hard as he can and is pretty much the player he is going to be. He will drop balls becomes WRs sometimes drop balls (and tend to drop more or less based on how good they are individually).

There will be dropped passes in week 1 and dropped passes in week 14. That is not to say it is static and teams do not improve as the year goes on. Just that we will see less than last year or most past years.

BobDigital said:

I did not say no player over 24 can not improved. I am simply remarking that the most improvement happens in years 1 and 2 and sometimes 3. A player who is 27 or 28 can improve but it is usually very slight compared to a player that is a rookie or 2nd year player. Also I did not say this tam can not improve with its play. I am saying compared to years past it is starting ahead of where it has so we will see less improvement. It is not a bad thing; just different.

I am not misunderstanding what BB means. Improvement is as a unit and as an individual. This is not something I do not know. Playing as a unit though 99% of the time is based on understanding your roll within the play and effective communication of any adjustments. I would argue 2 people who have never played together can do as well as 2 played who have played together for 10 years assuming both understand their specific job on the play and communicate any pre-snap adjustments clearly. There is very little improvisation in football in which having a feel for what the other guy might do would help. And when there is that is mostly for a QB to his WR and Brady has worked with Gronk/Edelman/Lafell before so that unit already has that experience.

BB always talked about improving execution as he should. However execution will simply never be perfect. You will always have dropped passes and bad technique and missed throw. The amount of those you have is based on the quality of the players you have and their personal ability. Edelman will drop passes. Not much you can do to completely eliminate it. The only way to eliminate it is to become better individually so you catch those passes. However I would say he is already working pretty much as hard as he can and is pretty much the player he is going to be. He will drop balls becomes WRs sometimes drop balls (and tend to drop more or less based on how good they are individually).

There will be dropped passes in week 1 and dropped passes in week 14. That is not to say it is static and teams do not improve as the year goes on. Just that we will see less than last year or most past years.

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Tom Brady improved between the ages of 34-38, pretty significantly, IMO.

This is not good analysis.

"Lack of improvement" was what my ex-wife used as grounds for divorce. Oddly, as soon as she moved out, my life improved exponentially....

Bob i think you are over thinking this.. No team is as good as they can be three weeks into a season. As good as we have played.. The d has not executed the way it willl at the end of the year. Bb teams are not about players improving individually although that is sometimes a by product. His teams are about fine tuning their ability to execute plays within his system and understanding his vastly different game plans from week to week. This team has alot of room to improve in those areas Even tom brady can improve his execution with the new formations that josh m is putting out there....so im not really sure where you are going with this post.

How do you not think LaFell is an improvement over Dobson? That isn't even close. Lafell nearly had 1000 yards last year and somewhere around 80 catches. I'm not sure Dobson has 80 catches in his career.

Dobson has 49 career catches as of today...

TommyD4207 said:

Tom Brady improved between the ages of 34-38, pretty significantly, IMO.

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Not really.

IMO he declined at ages 34 35 36 but did improve at 37. However that is a particularly special case and also speaks to the fact he unknowingly let some of his game slip (particularly pocket movement in mobility which he use to do a lot more pre-2008).

It is not like he was on a positive upward trajectory from those ages which is the way you put it IMO.

After his injury Brady became more of a statue back there. Maybe he was unsure about his leg or maybe he just got complacent and focused too much time on pocket passing but it is clear he did not move like he did early in his career within the pocket. He was able to be amazing without being quite as mobile cause it is one of the less important parts of his game but he clearly climbs the pocket it and slides in it more and runs more now than he has in past years from the 2009-2013 period.

Though i think some other parts of his game have declined a bit like his down field accuracy the mobility he reclaimed more than compensates for those very minor losses.

mgcolby said:

How do you not think LaFell is an improvement over Dobson? That isn't even close. Lafell nearly had 1000 yards last year and somewhere around 80 catches. I'm not sure Dobson has 80 catches in his career.

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I addressed that. I was not counting players coming back in this though it was mentioned. It is about the players who will be starters and key contributors for us this year and how much they will improve this year over last which is less.

Last year Lafell had a learning curve and this year he will not. That is the kind of thing i was focused on. IDK why people are taking this as an insult to the team. If anything it is a compliment in saying they are ahead of where they usually are.

Bledsoehasaring said:

Bob i think you are over thinking this.. No team is as good as they can be three weeks into a season. As good as we have played.. The d has not executed the way it willl at the end of the year. Bb teams are not about players improving individually although that is sometimes a by product. His teams are about fine tuning their ability to execute plays within his system and understanding his vastly different game plans from week to week. This team has alot of room to improve in those areas Even tom brady can improve his execution with the new formations that josh m is putting out there....so im not really sure where you are going with this post.

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Again I did not say this team can not improve. Why do people keep saying I said that when i did not? I am saying there is less room for improvement which is a weird contrast to past years for BB teams generally. I NEVER SAID this team is as good as it can be.

All teams are about individual player improvement including BB teams. BB intentionally left Butler out there for every snap last game so he could improve and get better schematically and individually (And it can be said depending by definition all improvement in necessarily individual improvement. No one can improve how well someone else plays or how well they under stand the concept within the scheme.

The effectiveness of a units play depends on each individual doing their job. Cover there man, Stick to their assignment, understand their assignment and communicate effectively. It is basically talking about the same thing in the end.

I am not saying this team can not improve. If you want to say the team can improve a lot then fine the team can improve a lot. I am saying the amount of improvement IMO seems to be less than past years. They are ahead of schedule and indeed started ahead week 1 compared to 2014, 2013, 2012, and the majority of years under BB.

To be very clear. Where I am going with this is simple this. I want to point out this year just seems to be to be different than most BB teams and i think that is interesting. It has not been the norm for the Patriots to be at this point at this week. This is week 3 and I feel like it is week 8 or 9 just by how crisp things look generally in most areas.

Brady didn't improve from the KC game last year? Brady can definitely improve, you're watching it happen these first 3 games. Dude has been on fire since the first few games of last year. Improving is not about increasing talent. Talent is finite. Improving is about utilizing that talent and playing smarter.

All of the players at this level are extremely athletic. In the NFL the game is like 90% mental. That is where games are won or lost and that is where the improvement comes in.

The genius of Belichick is finding new and innovative ways to improve. He thinks of crap others would never even consider.

BobDigital said:

Again I did not say this team can not improve. Why do people keep saying I said that when i did not? I am saying there is less room for improvement which is a weird contrast to past years for BB teams generally. I NEVER SAID this team is as good as it can be.

All teams are about individual player improvement including BB teams. BB intentionally left Butler out there for every snap last game so he could improve and get better schematically and individually (And it can be said depending by definition all improvement in necessarily individual improvement. No one can improve how well someone else plays or how well they under stand the concept within the scheme.

The effectiveness of a units play depends on each individual doing their job. Cover there man, Stick to their assignment, understand their assignment and communicate effectively. It is basically talking about the same thing in the end.

I am not saying this team can not improve. If you want to say the team can improve a lot then fine the team can improve a lot. I am saying the amount of improvement IMO seems to be less than past years. They are ahead of schedule and indeed started ahead week 1 compared to 2014, 2013, 2012, and the majority of years under BB.

To be very clear. Where I am going with this is simple this. I want to point out this year just seems to be to be different than most BB teams and i think that is interesting. It has not been the norm for the Patriots to be at this point at this week. This is week 3 and I feel like it is week 8 or 9 just by how crisp things look generally in most areas.

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I see what your saying about the offense being crisp... I guess they are like the 07 team in that way.. But I think that team regressed later on in the season cause they were so reliant on welker and moss. This teams offense is way more comlpex than 07. I believe bb addressed this in a football life saying if teams take away one or the other they are were done. Thats why they drafted gronk and the serial killer. I disagree a little with you on the defense i think they have a massive room for improvement. Easly, brown, and butler are young... We have several new pieces from other teams.. And the scheme has changed from relying on are cbs to play man to requiring our front seven to apply pressure and pursue relentlessly. This will take time to perfect and there is alot of room for improvement imo. But i i do get the gist of your post now that you explained it again.

BobDigital said:

Then again I doubt we need to improve too much to win the SB I just thought it be interest to point out how different this year is from past years.

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Some have already commented in similar ways, but I'll add my two cents (plus tax). I understand the notion being presented, which I think is more in a talent ceiling type argument than improvement honestly, but disagree with it on the whole.

The improvement can indeed be along a spectrum as postulated, but what isn't taken into account is the repetitive muscle memory and reaction time that moves from "see/process/react" to "see/react" to eventually "anticipate". That's been the hallmark of Belichick's best teams: ones that no longer have to process the voluminous terabytes of information he and the staff pour into them practice after practice; but instead move fluidly and almost automatically from play to play, concept to concept effortlessly.

THIS is why Butler makes that interception in the SB. Why Slater, a veteran who has the reached the point in his career where he moves through this progression faster because he's been here so long that he does it during the fake punt last Sunday.

If, and it's not a given yet, this team assimilates across the board to that quicker processing to action time that highlight the best BB teams (and do it across all three phases: O, D, and S) they have the potential to indeed not just improve, but exponentially so. And if it happens, after what we've seen is in many ways some pretty poor play in major areas (such as run D, pass D late in games, and the running game), the rest of the league better look out.

Yes, NE is playing well right now to open the season. But if the team doesn't improve as the season goes along, they won't last long in January. We've heard BB talk about playing 60 minutes before. Doing that is considered improvement. The players understanding opposing offenses & defenses better would be improvement, too. Nobody is playing perfectly and they will make mistakes. It's also about minimizing those to give yourself the best chance to win. I bet you BB would say he can do better as a coach.

Just because they might not get more talented doesn't mean they won't utilize their talent better.

Joker said:

"Lack of improvement" was what my ex-wife used as grounds for divorce. Oddly, as soon as she moved out, my life improved exponentially....

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Nothing better than a win-win situation...

Only Patriots fans...boo hoo, we have solid established talent instead of potential at pretty much every single position. If only we had Blake Bortles and his upside over Tom Brady's impending decline...

Anyways, I think this post misses a lot of points. First off, it starts talking about BB preaching that the team needs to get better, then bases the evaluation only on the individuals. And it doesn't really say much about depth other than mentioning a few veteran names.

QB - No improvement. I take this over potential any day. But FWIW, think of the significant upgrade in the back-up position. Hope we don't see Jimmy G in a meaningful situation, but he's made a huge jump and will continue to improve. With Brees, Romo, and Big Ben already hurt, the back-up QB is not just a filler spot.
TE - It's easy to see the improvement here just by looking at Hooman. He was our #2 TE last season, played 42% of snaps (inflated a bit because of Gronk's slow start), and now he's our #4 TE, played only 21% of snaps, and isn't even active on some game days. Chandler is an excellent addition because he's a complete TE, unlike Wright who couldn't stay on the field all the time. Williams has been a plus, especially since Develin was injured.
WR - Dobson/Martin may get pushed down the chart with Lafell's return, or maybe not. That's entirely up to them. But it's clear that the back end of our receiving depth chart looks a hell of a lot better than last season. Our #3 guy, Amendola, caught 27 passes for 200 yards. After a good run in the play-offs, him and Brady are working much better together and he's on pace for 43 catches and 490 yards. Our #4 guy was...Thompkins, who got cut. Even if it's a healthy Dobson, he gives us much better depth.
RB - A near-full season of Blount will be an improvement over the 5 games from last season. And Lewis is only starting to scratch the surface. The kid hasn't played for a few years, he's growing weekly. I can't speak to whether the RB route tree is limited or not, but Lewis is 3rd in the league in receptions for a RB, so it really can't be that much of a limitation.
OL - I don't understand this at all. We don't even have our starting center back yet, we have 4 players in year 1 or 2 here, a Pro Bowler in his prime, and a former 1st round pick just entering his prime. Our entire starting IOL has not played an entire season yet. How is there no room for growth? The depth here is incredible too. Wendell, a starter on a Super Bowl winner, could be a bench option.

I can't believe I'm wasting my time on this...so let's run through the D quickly...

DE - Sheard's presence gives valuable rest to Jones and Ninko. I don't even know why I have to explain this.
DT - Easley/Brown were already mentioned. Don't forget Siliga either. He's just 25, and just played his 16th NFL game. He has a lot of room to gain experience.
LB - I can't believe there's no improvement here. Collins and Hightower are just beginning to hit their peak. Are you serious? Oh, and a former 2nd rounder who led his team in tackles in Bostic will be on our bench if he passes his physical.
S - I'm pretty sure you mean Richards, and not Richardson, and I guess there's no reason to project much growth from a 2nd round pick? And Harmon may not be a rookie anymore, but he hasn't gotten much PT over the years. He only played 15% of defensive snaps last season, so some experience may help.
CB - Yay! Room for improvement! This is way better than having no upside like when we had Revis and Browner.

So really, I have no idea what you're talking about. We have guys hitting their prime that you don't think will get better, an entire OL of guys in their prime or just starting out, and significantly improved depth throughout the roster.

I mean, we don't have the potential of those Jaguars or anything, but you know, that's okay too.

Provocative post. To me it's not whether the Patriots improve - they always do as the playbook gets more complex as the season progresses - it's where they'll improve the most.

I think TE will go through a major improvement as McDaniels and the offense upgrades the options out of the 3 TE and 4 TE sets. At training camp, there was significant time put into lining Gronk up wide and running different routes outside the hash marks, or blocking downfield. We have not seen the possibilities with Scott Chandler yet.

Running back has the biggest evolution coming as we see Cadet get some action. And Develin will be back. They put White in the rotation against the Jaguars, and we've seen good things from Lewis and Blount. There are loads of options here from essentially a new backfield.

On defense, Easley is very active and will probably find his assignments getting more varied and complex. The pickup of Bostic is interesting. Bostic is an undersized MLB who would do better in the role Ayers played in spot duty last season, if he is healthy.