Lack of improvement issue

[BobDigital]

That was 1,335 yards and 3 TDs more than the previous year.

As I said. I do not base my opinion on stats. I watched him all 16 games of 2010 and all 16 of 2011 and thought he was better in 2010 by a little bit.

 

[Rhodey]

Provocative post. To me it's not whether the Patriots improve - they always do as the playbook gets more complex as the season progresses - it's where they'll improve the most.

I think TE will go through a major improvement as McDaniels and the offense upgrades the options out of the 3 TE and 4 TE sets. At training camp, there was significant time put into lining Gronk up wide and running different routes outside the hash marks, or blocking downfield. We have not seen the possibilities with Scott Chandler yet.

Running back has the biggest evolution coming as we see Cadet get some action. And Develin will be back. They put White in the rotation against the Jaguars, and we've seen good things from Lewis and Blount. There are loads of options here from essentially a new backfield.

On defense, Easley is very active and will probably find his assignments getting more varied and complex. The pickup of Bostic is interesting. Bostic is an undersized MLB who would do better in the role Ayers played in spot duty last season, if he is healthy.

Good point(s).

Many times the "improvements" are changes that are necessary to adapt to...well, changes that the opposing teams are making to their changes. If teams don't make adjustments, they get called out on the field. When these changes are reflected on the field in a winning fashion, they are oft pointed at as improvements.

Of course, there is the other kind of improvement where a player improves his conditioning, etc. Interestingly, some players claim to improve because of the equipment they use.

And we have team improvements; working the individual improvements into a cohesive plan.

Regardless, if a team wins, they are oft said to have improved, even if they have not. Perhaps, the league took a dip that year?

Personally, I approach this topic the same way I approach numbers- quantitatively & qualitatively. More exactly, I do not believe that a simply quantitative analysis that is worked into a number that must continue to go up for improvement to take place. That's incomplete and incorrect. Can a player have stats that are less than previously rendered, but play better? Methinks. Numbers are good, but they have a quality about them, as well. Pity, the "modern" school systems have left this bit out.

 

[BobDigital]

Of course we can improve, as a whole. Last year at this time, if I am not mistaken, we were 2-1 and being left for dead. We've already improved over that. We got off to a fast start, which we have not been able to do in the last few years, and we can always win more games than we did last year.

I think you didn't fully understand what I was saying. I am not saying we can not improve over last year. That was never the point i was trying to make. If you want to use last year we can though.

Last year the team was 2-1 and frankly not much was working the way we hoped. That team at that point had more room to improve than this team at this point (to just compare those 2 years).

That is kind of my point.

 

[BobDigital]

Provocative post. To me it's not whether the Patriots improve - they always do as the playbook gets more complex as the season progresses - it's where they'll improve the most.

I think TE will go through a major improvement as McDaniels and the offense upgrades the options out of the 3 TE and 4 TE sets. At training camp, there was significant time put into lining Gronk up wide and running different routes outside the hash marks, or blocking downfield. We have not seen the possibilities with Scott Chandler yet.

Running back has the biggest evolution coming as we see Cadet get some action. And Develin will be back. They put White in the rotation against the Jaguars, and we've seen good things from Lewis and Blount. There are loads of options here from essentially a new backfield.

On defense, Easley is very active and will probably find his assignments getting more varied and complex. The pickup of Bostic is interesting. Bostic is an undersized MLB who would do better in the role Ayers played in spot duty last season, if he is healthy.

Well I try to do post that hit new ground on occasion and raise different points. They are not in an effort to be provocative; just interesting. You know. I have a strong feeling if i worded this thread "This years team ahead of past years" and used that kind of "positive language" There would have been less knee jerk reaction to the content of it which would be virtually the same argument.

You mention we have yet to see all the possibilities of Scott Chandler. While we have not seen every play they plan to run or every 3/4 TE formation they plan to roll out but I think overall we have seen what his roll will be and the extent of the impact he will have for the most part. As long as Gronk is out there Chandler is a 1-3 catch guy who might get a TD in most games and will play reasonable well. Better than any backup TE we have had the past few years anyway.

On Cadet i whole heatedly disagree. BB does not save players in the regular season and spring them on teams really. He may use a particular player more one game ala Jonas Grey if he feels a match up is exploitable but is it not like he sits superior talent on the bench to surprise teams. Right now my understanding on Cadet is he's healthy and he is behind both Lewis and White on the 3rd down back role. If he wasn't he would be playing more. Also sadly Develin will not be back this season Too bad as FB has been "meh" without him.

Also Easley along with Brown is one of the players I think can improve a good amount as the year goes on. Bostic I am less interested in unless Mayo is traded this year. Are they really going to take any of Mayo's 15-20 snaps away to put Bostic on the field? I think not. Good for depth and maybe STs but going to have much impact unless something changes with the top 3 LBs which we certainly do not want to happen. Also bold statement with the Ayers comparison. He played well for us last year. Hope he can be better than him but we will see.

 

[TommyD4207]

As I said. I do not base my opinion on stats. I watched him all 16 games of 2010 and all 16 of 2011 and thought he was better in 2010 by a little bit.

In 2010 he was the unanimous MVP of the league.

He threw 8 more INTs in 2011, and had no rushing attack to speak of (20th in the league). The year before they were 9th, so, you know, he didn't have to throw as often.

How that 2011 team got to the Super Bowl still amazes me. Even with the crap they played on that schedule (No Manning/Luck Colts, Tebow's Broncos twice), they had no business beating Baltimore, and with a little luck and a couple of key plays, they did. 2011 to me was Bill Belichick's best season as a coach.

I'd rather have Brady from Week 5 on last year, on Brady this year, over Brady in 2011. Every time. 8-yard in-cuts to Welker on every play only takes you so far.

 

[BobDigital]

Brady didn't improve from the KC game last year? Brady can definitely improve, you're watching it happen these first 3 games. Dude has been on fire since the first few games of last year. Improving is not about increasing talent. Talent is finite. Improving is about utilizing that talent and playing smarter.

All of the players at this level are extremely athletic. In the NFL the game is like 90% mental. That is where games are won or lost and that is where the improvement comes in.

The genius of Belichick is finding new and innovative ways to improve. He thinks of crap others would never even consider.

Brady did improve after that game (in a way of speaking.. It was not like he had not laid that ground work to improve in the off season and such though... not to mentioned he was nursing a minor injury and the OL was so spotty). But i though he played better after his first 4 games of that year yes. Never claimed he did not.

Improve is about a number of things. As you pointed out. I don't think Brady has improved since that Bengals game. I think that is where he is now. He will have better games and worse games and hot streaks and cold streaks a bit but this is the best he can be right now IMO.

He has fixed that mobility aspect of his game he let slide after his 2008 injury and that has made him arguably the best he has been since 2010 (maybe 2007). But I do not believe this is the best Brady has ever been. I think he was slightly better at other points in his career. And I certainly do not envision a way he can improve from here as his improvement in the 2014 year is tied to something you did more in his past and reclaiming that. It was not a new skill recovered it was an old skill he reclaimed that he let drop off.

I don't he has anything new he can add to his arsenal and for him right now IMO is it all about him keeping up what he has as much as possible.

 

[Deus Irae]

One of the things BB preaches on his teams is improvement every week generally his teams get better as they go into the year and he likes to set it up like that. This year is going to be a little different in that regard though. This year compared to past years will not be able to improve much. The Patriots are a young team but also a veteran team....

...Then again I doubt we need to improve too much to win the SB I just thought it be interest to point out how different this year is from past years.

Not one of your better posts...

 

[BobDigital]

Your posts are often insightful, but this post certainly doesn't fall into that category. There are some truly bizarre assumptions and logical leaps that you made to prove your point. This is a young, focused, hard working team that BB is obviously very fond of. It's hard to imagine such a team not improving the way most BB teams improve.

It isn't the improvement of individual players that make BB teams better later in the season, rather it is the rising level of complexity at which the team can effectively operate. The Pats have a complex system, that becomes more complicated each week. The level of complexity added is entirely dependent on the rate at which the team can understand and incorporate new concepts, something that this particular team excels at. This year's team is special, and if they stay reasonably healthy, have a great shot at another title.

Well thanks for the compliment in your first line. I think this post is insightful though and would ask you to re-examine it and see if you did not perhaps misunderstand what i am saying. Look at some responses I have made to other post in this thread for context then tell me if you still feel the same.

I address other parts of your post in other replies so I will go right into your complexity argument. Yes BB raises the complexity of his scheme as the year goes on. This is true for every single year as far as I know. However the fact that he does do this ever year means it is a constant and not part of the variable which i am basing my opinion on. I don't feel that particular part of the improvement from this year to last year will be drastically more or less. I don't think this particular team excels at it more than past teams but we will see. I think the only part of this team that can drastically improve as far as understanding the scheme ins the secondary but that was the same for last year too as we have restocked that area 2 years running. I think the front 7 is either mostly vets who know the system or young players that are at some of the more simple position schematically speaking (Brown/Easley for instance are young but DT is just a simpler position than CB or QB). On offense the blocking assignments are basically given by Brady same as last year and the way they are blocking right now is better than last year at this team (just to use last year as an example) so they are actually schematically ahead of where they were if anything on that young unit.

Not one of your better posts...

Well I stand by it and defend it cause i believe it is 100% accurate. I do wish it could have been more enjoyed though. I did not think it would get so many dislikes and so much hate to be honest.

 

[Oswlek]

To put in a context which does not fit but is easy to understand right now this team to me appears to be an A- and we hope to make it an A, A+ or A++

OK, but then the title is misleading, seeing as it is less an "issue" and more "interesting factoid." The Packers may have more improvement potential at WR than they started the preseason with, but I bet they'd happily trade it for the return of Jordy Nelson.

I also think there is a fundamental disconnect between your post and how teams evolve and grow throughout the season.

For instance, if I threw together 53 good late 20-somethings, they'd probably be lousy at first and steadily improve even if none of the individuals played above their usual level. New OL, new secondary, lots of turnover on the DL and at TE and RB, this team may have more cohesiveness than my hypothetical, but they are still figuring out what they have. This is even more exaggerated when we are talking about a Belichick coached team, with his September tinkering and reactions to swelling film supplies during the season.

I think this could have led to some interesting discussion if it had been framed differently. Can they improve? If so, how? Do they need to? How do they maintain this level of excellence throughout the season? Is there risk of other squads catching up to them?

^Those^ kinds of questions take the same topic down more interesting rabbit holes, IMO. In response, I might bring up things like the 2RB set, which I think could be a valuable ace that NE hasn't taken out of their sleeve yet. Or that, even if we presume that the PUP guys won't improve the team, they still protect the team from inevitable decline due to health issues.

I hope this idea gets a reboot because it has potential.

 

[goheels22002]

Well I try to do post that hit new ground on occasion and raise different points. They are not in an effort to be provocative; just interesting. You know. I have a strong feeling if i worded this thread "This years team ahead of past years" and used that kind of "positive language" There would have been less knee jerk reaction to the content of it which would be virtually the same argument.

You mention we have yet to see all the possibilities of Scott Chandler. While we have not seen every play they plan to run or every 3/4 TE formation they plan to roll out but I think overall we have seen what his roll will be and the extent of the impact he will have for the most part. As long as Gronk is out there Chandler is a 1-3 catch guy who might get a TD in most games and will play reasonable well. Better than any backup TE we have had the past few years anyway.

On Cadet i whole heatedly disagree. BB does not save players in the regular season and spring them on teams really. He may use a particular player more one game ala Jonas Grey if he feels a match up is exploitable but is it not like he sits superior talent on the bench to surprise teams. Right now my understanding on Cadet is he's healthy and he is behind both Lewis and White on the 3rd down back role. If he wasn't he would be playing more. Also sadly Develin will not be back this season Too bad as FB has been "meh" without him.

Also Easley along with Brown is one of the players I think can improve a good amount as the year goes on. Bostic I am less interested in unless Mayo is traded this year. Are they really going to take any of Mayo's 15-20 snaps away to put Bostic on the field? I think not. Good for depth and maybe STs but going to have much impact unless something changes with the top 3 LBs which we certainly do not want to happen. Also bold statement with the Ayers comparison. He played well for us last year. Hope he can be better than him but we will see.

Right you are about Develin - I thought he was on the IR-Return list but he's not. Too bad.

On Cadet, he had a role in camp, but pulled his hamstring. He'll play a role on this team, and probably a big one, as the season wears on. Cadet wasn't stashed. He hasn't been healthy. Last week was the first time off the injury report and he was on the practice squad while White and Lewis handled the 3rd down chores. No need last week to play Cadet against the Jags with the bye week coming up. He'll continue to get stronger.

We disagree about Scott Chandler. He'll have a bigger role, especially when some team decides to maul Gronk at the line.

 

[Galeb]

Well thanks for the compliment in your first line. I think this post is insightful though and would ask you to re-examine it and see if you did not perhaps misunderstand what i am saying. Look at some responses I have made to other post in this thread for context then tell me if you still feel the same.

I address other parts of your post in other replies so I will go right into your complexity argument. Yes BB raises the complexity of his scheme as the year goes on. This is true for every single year as far as I know. However the fact that he does do this ever year means it is a constant and not part of the variable which i am basing my opinion on. I don't feel that particular part of the improvement from this year to last year will be drastically more or less. I don't think this particular team excels at it more than past teams but we will see. I think the only part of this team that can drastically improve as far as understanding the scheme ins the secondary but that was the same for last year too as we have restocked that area 2 years running. I think the front 7 is either mostly vets who know the system or young players that are at some of the more simple position schematically speaking (Brown/Easley for instance are young but DT is just a simpler position than CB or QB). On offense the blocking assignments are basically given by Brady same as last year and the way they are blocking right now is better than last year at this team (just to use last year as an example) so they are actually schematically ahead of where they were if anything on that young unit.



Well I stand by it and defend it cause i believe it is 100% accurate. I do wish it could have been more enjoyed though. I did not think it would get so many dislikes and so much hate to be honest.

Like you, I used to think that the Pats success later in the seasons was simply the result of the improving play of individual players. I learned otherwise from snippets from BB over the years. I wish I had a link, but a year or two ago, BB went on at length about the rate at which they could install new content determined how well team played late in the season and in the playoffs. It's not the first time he's talked about it, but it was by far the most in-depth. Maybe someone else can remember the particular interview/presser.

Understanding a scheme is a requirement to play on the Pats. It is the rate at which the team as a whole can add new components to that scheme that determines how much a BB team improves over the course of a season. I would suggest the fact that they are schematically more advanced than early last year, while at the same time giving depth guys dramatically more reps than last year is clear evidence that this entire team is learning and incorporating concepts more quickly than last year.

Certainly the improvement of individuals' play is a factor, but as far as team success, the ability of the team to do more and more, is by far the biggest factor in the improvement of BB's teams. If this team stays relatively healthy, they will become pretty special.

 

[mgteich]

The patriots improve every year because the coaching staffs add complexity as the season progresses. Also, the coaches make changes as the season progresses. The idea that this improvement is all about individual players is just not what actually happens. Most player improve. Some stay the same. Some regress. The team is always better later in the season.

BTW, this is especially true now that the preseason rules don't allow for sufficient preseason practice. Obviously, it is hugely impressive that the patriots are 3-0 in these developmental games (it is clear that the OL and secondary needed to develop).

Like you, I used to think that the Pats success later in the seasons was simply the result of the improving play of individual players. I learned otherwise from snippets from BB over the years. I wish I had a link, but a year or two ago, BB went on at length about the rate at which they could install new content determined how well team played late in the season and in the playoffs. It's not the first time he's talked about it, but it was by far the most in-depth. Maybe someone else can remember the particular interview/presser.

Understanding a scheme is a requirement to play on the Pats. It is the rate at which the team as a whole can add new components to that scheme that determines how much a BB team improves over the course of a season. I would suggest the fact that they are schematically more advanced than early last year, while at the same time giving depth guys dramatically more reps than last year is clear evidence that this entire team is learning and incorporating concepts more quickly than last year.

Certainly the improvement of individuals' play is a factor, but as far as team success, the ability of the team to do more and more, is by far the biggest factor in the improvement of BB's teams. If this team stays relatively healthy, they will become pretty special.

 

[Galeb]

The patriots improve every year because the coaching staffs add complexity as the season progresses. Also, the coaches make changes as the season progresses. The idea that this improvement is all about individual players is just not what actually happens. Most player improve. Some stay the same. Some regress. The team is always better later in the season.

It sounds like you agree with me, but your rating would imply that you don't.

 

[Fencer]

The defense could improve a LOT as the season progresses. Indeed, things will go badly if it doesn't.

The only DBs who have likely peaked in their understanding of and skill in this particular system are McCourty and Chung.

I don't think anybody in the Front 6/7 has peaked either, in part due to this year's annual scheme change. Even Ninkovich hasn't peaked; something has him playing less effectively than he has in the past, and I don't think it's just injury or age. He'll work it out, I think, and when he does that will be significant improvement.

 

[n6249c]

"Lack of improvement" was what my ex-wife used as grounds for divorce. Oddly, as soon as she moved out, my life improved exponentially....

Same here. Might be there's a reason it worked like that. Did yours expect you to improve without any help from her, like mine did?

 

[Angelpats]

It's nice to win a lot of games but its better to win championships. I think BB would prefer getting into the playoffs as a wildcard and winning the Super Bowl than getting homefield and losing if the first round. Championships! That's all I think BB and Brady cares about. Of course they want to improve, but they want to improve so they can win the Super Bowl, and I don't think Brady would mind one bit if he didn't pass a single to get it.

 

[n6249c]

So basically any player over 24 has no chance of getting better? I think you may be misunderstanding BB's preaching of improvement. You seem to be focused on each individual's talent level improving week by week. BB's preaching of improvement each week throughout the season is more in regards to execution and growing as a unit. As well as our offense has played there has still been some missed throws, drops, bad technique on the Oline. Improvement on those aspects of the game is what BB is referring to, and there is still plenty of realisitic improvement to expect of this team based on some very correctable mistakes/flaws shown in these first 3 games.

...Improvement is as a unit and as an individual. This is not something I do not know. Playing as a unit though 99% of the time is based on understanding your roll within the play and effective communication of any adjustments. I would argue 2 people who have never played together can do as well as 2 played who have played together for 10 years assuming both understand their specific job on the play and communicate any pre-snap adjustments clearly. There is very little improvisation in football in which having a feel for what the other guy might do would help. And when there is that is mostly for a QB to his WR and Brady has worked with Gronk/Edelman/Lafell before so that unit already has that experience.
...
There will be dropped passes in week 1 and dropped passes in week 14. That is not to say it is static and teams do not improve as the year goes on. Just that we will see less than last year or most past years.

That improvement is both collective and individual is key. There is room for debate on both aspects.

One theme, not explicitly stated but underlying much of this discussion, is about the limits of individual growth. Often people assume that for any given player there is a talent ceiling that limits their potential. I reject that idea; others cling to it as immutable truth despite counter examples (Nink, Vrabel, many others). Pertinent to this, Chandler. Can he learn to catch better? Or is he inevitably consigned to be forever a big body who can block better than he catches? Many other examples. Butler, does his UDFA status cap his development or do the numbers on his measureable athletic traits suggest he could develop into a Revis clone if he applies himself as diligently as Revis to studying his craft? So there are lots of questions about individual improvement, 63 of them (53+10).

And then there is working together collectively. I argue it's not as simple as the quote above suggests, because there are nuances within the play. Take Maycock's "Low Hanging Fruit" segment, when the guard is engaged in a double team with the tackle and comes off to pick up the unblocked rusher it could easily surprise the tackle and let the rusher beat him to the now open inside, without an adjustment as the guard leaves. Or consider the distinction between a rub play and an illegal pick, how much does the coordination between the two offensive players include their respective reaction to the defensive players and how they are positioned and moving?

There will be dropped passes and bad plays. We saw them Sunday, even though every possession resulted in a score (until the kneeldowns). But those FGs could've been TDs!

Like you, I used to think that the Pats success later in the seasons was simply the result of the improving play of individual players. I learned otherwise from snippets from BB over the years. I wish I had a link, but a year or two ago, BB went on at length about the rate at which they could install new content determined how well team played late in the season and in the playoffs. It's not the first time he's talked about it, but it was by far the most in-depth. Maybe someone else can remember the particular interview/presser.

Understanding a scheme is a requirement to play on the Pats. It is the rate at which the team as a whole can add new components to that scheme that determines how much a BB team improves over the course of a season. I would suggest the fact that they are schematically more advanced than early last year, while at the same time giving depth guys dramatically more reps than last year is clear evidence that this entire team is learning and incorporating concepts more quickly than last year.

Certainly the improvement of individuals' play is a factor, but as far as team success, the ability of the team to do more and more, is by far the biggest factor in the improvement of BB's teams. If this team stays relatively healthy, they will become pretty special.

They are already looking pretty special. One nice thing about the way things are unfolding is that the rotation is getting a lot of playing time for rookies and newcomers. So when the injuries do occur the next man up will be better prepared. And that means they will have had game experience to provide the foundation for both individual and collective improvement. There is lots of room for both, and depth is another aspect of improvement. Acquiring Bostic might be a good example.

I think it will be fun to watch. I get the impression BB feels the same, and I think that's a good sign. Let's hope so!

 

[Bruins29]

" I don't care and can't stand it" Part III???

 

[Deus Irae]

Well I stand by it and defend it cause i believe it is 100% accurate. I do wish it could have been more enjoyed though. I did not think it would get so many dislikes and so much hate to be honest.

The first problem is that it's not 100% accurate. The second problem is that the base argument is misleading when it riffs off the general BB concept of improving during the season.

 

[n6249c]

The first problem is that it's not 100% accurate. The second problem is that the base argument is misleading when it riffs off the general BB concept of improving during the season.

It's far from 100% accurate. Going through the position by position list could provide so many examples of that (at least 22 ). Just for one, TE, apart from Gronk where is there NOT opportunity for improvement among out TEs? Individually and collectively. Hooman is the only one not new to the system, so maybe there's that, but the other two almost certainly have not yet mastered the playbook to the point it's instinctive. And all three of them have ample room for individual improvement. And that's just one position. Most of the others would be subject to the same kind of critique.