Idle Thoughts – Post Revis Edition

Sicilian · Mar 11, 2015

Nunchucks said:
You are missing the point, I assume on purpose. A corner should stop the QB from throwing their way....a great safety should be creating turnovers. All the greatest safeties in the game create turnovers.

I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with it. And I disagree with your evaluation of the responsibilities of safeties as well. It's like saying every elite defensive lineman gets sacks, ignoring players like Seymour and Wilfork. You're oversimplifying a very complex position.

Brady_to_Moss · Mar 11, 2015

grux said:
Why did the pats have to overpay, did Revis need the extra money?

Does Revis need any money at all? He went to the rival...your own team got much weaker....Best corner in the game and if you look at other top CB contracts...it's what we all expected his contract to be

Nunchucks · Mar 11, 2015

patfanken said:
Let me help you understand the understated impact of someone like McCourty. You know that playmaker guy you are talking about? The first guy I think about is Assante Samuel. He was a ultimate playmaker. Yet for every play Assante made, there were one or two he gave up that were negative, and rarely made it to a highlight reel.

It may not be spectacular, and its very difficult to itemize its effect, but McCourty's ability to keep teams from making big plays in the middle of the field has been huge. I think FO's and PFF have given him high grades for his play the last few years. IIRC his QB rating is very low.

As for his playmaking ability, IIRC he has 17 picks over the last 5 years. That's among the best in the league. Also FYI Vontae Davis and Greg Tolar are one the better CB combos in the league

That number is skewed by his first year playing corner. All I am saying is that having a rangy deep safety is wasted if the QB can just find an open guy at his next read.

Nunchucks · Mar 11, 2015

Sicilian said:
I'm not missing the point, I'm disagreeing with it. And I disagree with your evaluation of the responsibilities of safeties as well. It's like saying every elite defensive lineman gets sacks, ignoring players like Seymour and Wilfork. You're oversimplifying a very complex position.

Well the safeties on all the superbowl teams you listed created turnovers.

JarOfMayo51 · Mar 11, 2015

Sicilian said:
There were several teams willing to give McCourty what the Patriots did (or more). Clearly you're in the minority of people that don't consider him elite.

Hehe yup.. BB and multiple other front offices viewed McCourty as elite.. and fan forums of rival teams were buzzing over the idea of landing mccourty.. but a few people on this forum think he's garbage and in their minds they're smarter than everyone else

captain stone · Mar 11, 2015

I hope Mevi$ shatters both knees on the first day of TC and never plays another down again.

JarOfMayo51 · Mar 11, 2015

patfanken said:
Let me help you understand the understated impact of someone like McCourty. You know that playmaker guy you are talking about? The first guy I think about is Assante Samuel. He was a ultimate playmaker. Yet for every play Assante made, there were one or two he gave up that were negative, and rarely made it to a highlight reel.

It may not be spectacular, and its very difficult to itemize its effect, but McCourty's ability to keep teams from making big plays in the middle of the field has been huge. I think FO's and PFF have given him high grades for his play the last few years. IIRC his QB rating is very low.

As for his playmaking ability, IIRC he has 17 picks over the last 5 years. That's among the best in the league. Also FYI Vontae Davis and Greg Tolar are one the better CB combos in the league

Stop using facts to make mccourty appear to be worthy of his contract! Hes a bum!!

Lol

Sicilian · Mar 11, 2015

Nunchucks said:
Well the safeties on all the superbowl teams you listed created turnovers.

And again, you're falling into this trap of saying "These Super Bowl teams had X, so we NEED to have X now!" My original point (which got derailed into a McCourty debate), was that there is no single, determining factor to winning a Super Bowl other than having a decent QB. Everything else helps but isn't a pre-requisite.

primetime · Mar 11, 2015

patfanken said:
I’d love to keep DA around, but if cutting him gave us a shot at Andre Johnson I’d do it in a flash. I really don’t think he’d come here because he would never be “the guy” here, and that’s why he’s left Texas. The Colts would look like the ideal destination.

The Colts have a borderline superstar in TY Hilton and a promising youngster in Donte Moncrief. Just like on the Patriots, he's their #2 at best.

luuked · Mar 11, 2015

Nunchucks said:
One player did allow the Patriots to play man defense, 1 player did allow the defense to play a style that gave guys like Andrew Luck fits....without that 1 man, we are looking at a zone defense and zone defense is dead in the NFL.

We have destroyed the Colts every time in the last three years. This goes far beyond one man, unless you are talking about BB.

Brewskies · Mar 11, 2015

Nunchucks said:
One player did allow the Patriots to play man defense, 1 player did allow the defense to play a style that gave guys like Andrew Luck fits....without that 1 man, we are looking at a zone defense and zone defense is dead in the NFL.

I understand what you are saying but the off season is just starting. We won't know what we have or how we will play until the first game. I am not jumping off a bridge and I still say one man doesn't make a team. Revis was great he's gone, what tricks will BB have for us.

primetime · Mar 11, 2015

Sicilian said:
And again, you're falling into this trap of saying "These Super Bowl teams had X, so we NEED to have X now!" My original point (which got derailed into a McCourty debate), was that there is no single, determining factor to winning a Super Bowl other than having a decent QB. Everything else helps but isn't a pre-requisite.

Winning a Super Bowl is largely a factor of luck. If the Seahawks run the ball, or Malcolm Butler doesn't make the play of a lifetime, we're shrugging and saying "well Revis wasn't much help on that last drive, clearly that wasn't the Super Bowl formula."

That said, having guys like Revis sure makes winning a Super Bowl that much easier.

FreeTedWilliams · Mar 11, 2015

JarOfMayo51 said:
Hehe yup.. BB and multiple other front offices viewed McCourty as elite.. and fan forums of rival teams were buzzing over the idea of landing mccourty.. but a few people on this forum think he's garbage and in their minds they're smarter than everyone else

I'm not saying that he isn't any good, I'm just saying that he is not elite! And given the fact that they are paying him 45 million dollars, money that could have gone to Revis, he is not worth it! McCourty could have easily been replaced, Revis is not getting replaced. Brady has 3 years left, you could have given him a top notch defense for that time. This was a bad move by the Pats.

JackBauer · Mar 11, 2015

FreeTedWilliams said:
McCourty could have easily been replaced

Given there are fewer than ten and closer to five safeties in the entire league that are of McCourty's caliber, please expound on this notion of yours that he'd have been easily replaced.

Sicilian · Mar 11, 2015

primetime said:
Winning a Super Bowl is largely a factor of luck. If the Seahawks run the ball, or Malcolm Butler doesn't make the play of a lifetime, we're shrugging and saying "well Revis wasn't much help on that last drive, clearly that wasn't the Super Bowl formula."

That said, having guys like Revis sure makes winning a Super Bowl that much easier.

Oh yeah, and I try not to be one of those guys that downplays the impact a great player can have once he leaves the Patriots (contrary to some people's beliefs about me on this board). Revis is an all-world player, and had it been up to me, I would have paid him what the Jets gave him. His impact is big. But there are a lot of ways to use that money to make up the difference, and I feel he's being unfairly portrayed as the only player who could have possibly put us over the top. I'll never believe one player (outside of a QB in today's NFL) can have that impact on his own.

IllegalContact · Mar 11, 2015

look.....the pats have gotten to the superbowl and almost won it in 2011 with one of the worst defenses in the league. if you think what it boiled down to in the last 4 years of getting to the AFCC, shelling out all the money for revis and browner is not worth it......realistically, it took some pretty unusual events to land the pats as SB champs....between the ravens game and the seahawks game, it came down to a substantial amount of situational luck.......

part of me is very enthusiastic about what rabbits will be pulled out of what hats this year to put us back to where we seem to go just about every year.

I'm just as happy watching the offense put up 550 points during the regular season......that's fun, too

primetime · Mar 11, 2015

Sicilian said:
Oh yeah, and I try not to be one of those guys that downplays the impact a great player can have once he leaves the Patriots (contrary to some people's beliefs about me on this board). Revis is an all-world player, and had it been up to me, I would have paid him what the Jets gave him. His impact is big. But there are a lot of ways to use that money to make up the difference, and I feel he's being unfairly portrayed as the only player who could have possibly put us over the top. I'll never believe one player (outside of a QB in today's NFL) can have that impact on his own.

Right. Now that the Seahawks and Patriots have won the Super Bowl, we're in the "defense wins championships" era, but look at the games before that:

Ravens, a middling defensive-minded team who advanced due to luck, beat the top defense in the Niners on the last play
Giants, a middling team who advanced due to luck, beat the Patriots (also, arguably a middling offensive-minded team who advanced due to luck) on the last play
Packers, with an historically bad defense and historically good offense, beat the Steelers, a middling defensive-minded team
Saints, with an historically bad defense and historically good offense, beat the Colts, with an historically bad defense and historically good offense
Steelers, a middling defensive-minded team, beat the Cardinals, a middling defensive-minded team
Giants, a mediocre defensive-minded team that advanced due to incredible luck, beat the Patriots, probably the single greatest team ever assembled

There's no pattern there, other than that each team had, as you mentioned, a decent (but usually better) quarterback. It comes down to about 400 plays and winning 3 or 4 games in a row. Huge randomness/luck at play in the playoffs, it's the nature of the beast.

The new vogue will be assembling a defense around a top corner thanks to the Patriots and the Seahawks, but if Edelman misses the pass to Amendola or Brandon Bostick recovers that onside kick, we're not talking about top defenses anymore.

FreeTedWilliams · Mar 11, 2015

JackBauer said:
Given there are fewer than ten and closer to five safeties in the entire league that are of McCourty's caliber, please expound on this notion of yours that he'd have been easily replaced.

There is exactly one guy (Sherman) who can replace Revis. Thank you for making my point.

Spiral · Mar 11, 2015

In order of cap numbers, here are the three highest paid players on offense:
Brady
Gronk
Solder

This order correlates with their value to the offense. Few people inside or outside the locker room would have any issues there.

Here are the top three cap numbers for the defense:
Mayo
McCourty
Arrington

This make no sense and I think there are going to be some issues among the players on this team.

JackBauer · Mar 11, 2015

FreeTedWilliams said:
There is exactly one guy (Sherman) who can replace Revis. Thank you for making my point.

That's a different point entirely, and a rather unsubtle way of shifting the argument since (as I suspected) you haven't much of a leg to stand on.

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