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D Mac #3 ranked Safety.


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Bingo. I believe that was the last significant example, over a decade ago.

To be fair, Colvin might well have hit the mark if it weren't for his horrific injury. But as Brady6 rounded up, the others who have signed for big $$ were cut before the end of their deals.

They've certainly picked up other veterans who have blossomed here, but most were either acquired on a one-year-tryout deal or as undervalued commodity (Vrabel and Ninkovich are prime examples of the latter).



Psst...your trash talk would have impressed more if you'd known that Paxton and Gay both started their careers with Your New England Patriots. "Get with the program, man." ;)

More to the point, the inclusion of Earthwind Moreland suggests that you must have missed the "big-name, multiyear, big-money deal" criteria. On the plus side, though, you've given me an excuse to type Earthwind Moreland, which is always welcome.
Earthwind Moreland references are great, but I'm still whole-heartedly a Shockmain Davis guy.:D
 
There were many outstanding under the radar signings in the Belichick era, I was just responding to the poster that asked for big money long term signings. Those were the most recent ones that came to mind.

As I said in a prior post, I think in most cases when a player signs for big money and long term with a different team it fails to reach expectations. The salary cap, franchise and transition tags, and the ability to negotiate long terms deals 2 years prior to UFA allows teams ample opportunity to retain their players. In most cases, the big contracts go to players in their second contract, if a team does not want to retain a player in his prime it says something about the player a lot of times, either they have injury concerns or they are just not as good as they appear from a far.

I would have to disagree with you on some aspects. Mike Wallace had to do with salary cap and Steelers had pick which player they wanted to pay. What about TJ Ward or Brandon Albert?
 
So you've got nothing, and you don't understand "elite".

Got it.

Harrison was Elite. Law was Elite. Those of us who are not fan boys have seen Elite players come and go for the Pats over the years. Mcourty is nothing like them. Hes average and Tbucky Jones part 2.

NEs pass defense was ranked 14th in 2013, 23rd in 2012, 28th in 2011 and 17th in 2010. That's right, your Elite Safety has been a part of the NFLs average to poor pass defenses at best. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2010

If Revis returns to form, I expect the NE pass defense to improve by leaps and bounds to at least top 10. That's what Elite players do. Maybe after watching Revis work his craft you will get a clue of what Elite actually means.
 
Harrison and Law don't play in the league and when the NFL votes for who they think are the "elite" players in the league they compare these players to the others PLAYING in the NFL today, not guys who dont.

It is the same thing as arguing Adrian Peterson is not an "elite" running back because he is not Walter Payton. Who gives a **** how players compare to guys who are retired. If you want to argue that Thomas and Berry are the true elite and DMC is one rung below great. But this happy horse$hit about DMC being average is comical.

You are just being an "elite" troll.
 
Harrison was Elite. Law was Elite. Those of us who are not fan boys have seen Elite players come and go for the Pats over the years. Mcourty is nothing like them. Hes average and Tbucky Jones part 2.
Oh only fanboys think McCourty is elite. That's odd because I've seen several fanbases refer to him as a top three free safety and even some Seattle fans rank him as second best to Earl Thomas. Keep telling yourself that though.

NEs pass defense was ranked 14th in 2013, 23rd in 2012, 28th in 2011 and 17th in 2010. That's right, your Elite Safety has been a part of the NFLs average to poor pass defenses at best. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2010
So not only do you believe that he's the only player that makes up the secondary, you're also calling him a safety in 2010 (great rookie season because of the zone scheme) and 2011 (he fell off as a cornerback when the Patriots began to play man) even though he was a cornerback in both of those years? Gotcha.

If Revis returns to form, I expect the NE pass defense to improve by leaps and bounds to at least top 10. That's what Elite players do. Maybe after watching Revis work his craft you will get a clue of what Elite actually means.
I know right? McCourty is just so terrible at free safety. I mean the ball gets thrown his way so often, he should have at least 10 interceptions a year. It's not like he's improved our defense against the deep ball at all.
 
Harrison was Elite. Law was Elite. Those of us who are not fan boys have seen Elite players come and go for the Pats over the years. Mcourty is nothing like them. Hes average and Tbucky Jones part 2.

NEs pass defense was ranked 14th in 2013, 23rd in 2012, 28th in 2011 and 17th in 2010. That's right, your Elite Safety has been a part of the NFLs average to poor pass defenses at best. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2010

If Revis returns to form, I expect the NE pass defense to improve by leaps and bounds to at least top 10. That's what Elite players do. Maybe after watching Revis work his craft you will get a clue of what Elite actually means.

Since the discussion isn't about every safety in NFL history, but is about current NFL safeties, whether or not McCourty is on the level of a Ty Law or a Rodney Harrison is completely irrelevant. Perhaps this will help you:

a singular or plural in construction : the choice part : cream <the elite of the entertainment world>

b singular or plural in construction : the best of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite — Marilyn Chase>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/elite

The class in question is current safeties.
 
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Since the discussion isn't about every safety in NFL history, but is about current NFL safeties, whether or not McCourty is on the level of a Ty Law or a Rodney Harrison is completely irrelevant. Perhaps this will help you:



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/elite

The class in question is current safeties.

Gotcha

As Elite safeties retire and leave the NFL, Mcourty moves up to being called Elite by default because he is still playing. Sounds like a good system.
 
Hes average and Tbucky Jones part 2.

NEs pass defense was ranked 14th in 2013, 23rd in 2012, 28th in 2011 and 17th in 2010. That's right, your Elite Safety has been a part of the NFLs average to poor pass defenses at best.

If Revis returns to form, I expect the NE pass defense to improve by leaps and bounds to at least top 10. That's what Elite players do. Maybe after watching Revis work his craft you will get a clue of what Elite actually means.

So you're trying to set it up that if the 2014 defense, adding Revis, Easley, Browner, Mayo, Wilfork, Kelly, etc. is better than the injury-decimated 2013 crew, that proves that Devin McCourty is just an average player? Nice trick. o_O
 
Gotcha

As Elite safeties retire and leave the NFL, Mcourty moves up to being called Elite by default because he is still playing. Sounds like a good system.

Not one poster has come close to implying DMC is an "all time great" but you seem to want to continue to straw man it to death.
 
Lets just go with Triumph wanted to draft someone else, so McCourty will always suck.
 
Hes average and Tbucky Jones part 2.

You are incredible. McCourty is unlike Tebucky Jones in pretty much every possible way, except for the fact that they're both men who play/played professional football.
 
Th
Lets just go with Triumph wanted to draft someone else, so McCourty will always suck.


This is exactly what I was going to say. Triumph actually believes he could do better than Belichick does drafting players, in other words he is 100% delusional, and he hated the McCourty pick and hates that he has turned into a top flight player in the NFL, so he just bashes away irrationally when people praise him.
 
I have the AFC Championship game on DVR and went back and watched it. First misconception is McCourty is only a FS which is flat out wrong. At the start of the 2nd quarter he and Gregory switched spots and McCourty played closer to the line of scrimmage, Gregory played deep middle of the field. It looked like they switched due to McCourty struggling to cover. With Gregory playing deep middle, don't think Denver hit a real deep pass. There were long runs after the catch due to missed tackles.

McCourty was flat out awful in the 1st quarter. 1st quarter 5:15 mark got beat deep on a seem pass to Thomas. Simms went onto say that Denver knew they could hit this play due to watching film and they picked up on McCourty tends to be late and often out of position. He tended to be late in Colts playoff game and let up two long TD's. Not my words they were Simms.

Very next play got beat on a deep in cut by Decker.

Next play lined up on the outside man to man on J. Thomas, mugged the guy in the end zone and never turned his head. Should have been a flag, but it is playoff football and I have no problem with with no flag being thrown.

Great play by McCourty with 47 seconds left in the first half came up and smacked Welker for a very short gain. Saw the play develop used his speed and made a great hit. This is what I want to see! More plays like this.

3rd quarter lined up again on the outside against J. Thomas and got beat again. Simms went onto say Denver was looking forward to this match-up because they thought it was very much in their advantage. Again Simms words not mine.

Overall view, if Pats take this current roster to that playoff game no doubt they would have beaten the Broncos. The score being 13-3 at half time with one of worst Pats rosters BB has ever put on a field, much to look forward to!
 
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Gotcha

As Elite safeties retire and leave the NFL, Mcourty moves up to being called Elite by default because he is still playing. Sounds like a good system.
Nice jersey, by the way.
 
I've said this before and ill say it again. I'd be willing to bet 85-90% of the posters here and most fans for that matter. Only watch their own teams. So they really haven't a clue about actual football in terms of comparing teams and players, watching game tape that lets you see the entire field and id be willing to be just as much that most don't do any research beside's looking at a box score. Like some have posted here.

DMC has as good of range as any S in the league.

I have followed Thomas since Texas and love him as a player. I think he's the best S in football but not by much. There are things he does better than Devin and things DMC does better than Thomas. Devin is a better tackler and takes better angles when making a play. DMC is a very smart and versatile player as well as Thomas. I really consider them 1a and 1b. And trust me I'm FAR from a homer. I could see if it was just my opinion, but many others feel this way as well. PFF isn't the end all, be all, but it's a great tool/resource. Also many other fans I speak with feel the same way as I do about him. This isn't just a homer thing where fans are overvaluing their fav player. And opposing QB's feel the same way it seems. The only targeted him 16 times last season. Basically once a game. So the people claiming that he's getting torched for this TD or that TD just don't know what their talking about. No surprise. Although if one is indeed a mod that's pretty embarrassing.

As far as the depth of the position I agree that it isn't deep. That said the top tier is as good as I've seen in long time watching football. You also have to consider this kid isn't playing behind Sherman and alongside Killer Kam. I can't wait to see him in this years secondary.

I don't see how it is 1A and 1B! The plays against Jimmy Graham alone separate the two!
 
I don't know is harrison would be considered "Elite" in todays version of football. he'd probably spend more time suspended because of "illegal" hit's then actually playing.
 
I have the AFC Championship game on DVR and went back and watched it. First misconception is McCourty is only a FS which is flat out wrong. At the start of the 2nd quarter he and Gregory switched spots and McCourty played closer to the line of scrimmage, Gregory played deep middle of the field. It looked like they switched due to McCourty struggling to cover.


I stopped here. If you really think that after 17 games the Patriots make a decision to switch players responsibilities because they are 'struggling to cover' there is no point reading further.
 
I don't see how it is 1A and 1B! The plays against Jimmy Graham alone separate the two!



It's beyond me why some people bring out youtube highlights in an argument. What's next? Are you going to whip out his combine numbers?

Not sure why I'm bothering but wtf.

Look I love Earl. He's a very good player. But there are things that Devin does better than him. Like tackling and taking angles to make a play. I see Earl miss tackles due his reckless play inside the box. In the open field I would take Devin making a tackle all day over Earl. Earl has better ball skills, probably better closing speed, but I would argue that both have ideal range. There isn't a part of the field neither can't cover. I also think both have great route recognition and are great at anticipating a play.

I know this, not from watching youtube highlights, but from game film, watching them play on Sundays and reading about them, the game itself etc.

Lastly I'll say this. I really believe Earl would be an impact player anywhere he went. He's that good. I believe the same about DMC. But you can't deny the talent level that each is playing with. You brought up his play against Jimmy G. I'm assuming from the game last year. I watched that game live and rewatched it on the all 22. One thing you'll notice is the fact that Seattle has very good coverage linebackers. Now being good in coverage doesn't neccesarly mean that you have to "blanket" someone so that they can't make a play. In Seattle's case, in regards to their backers they do a great job at "passing off" the TE or whoever their covering , to the S's. Their probably the best in the league at this very thing. And let's not forget about the fact that Seattle has some very good CB's and a very good D-line. The hybrid 4-3 under they play is very effective at creating pressure and making a QB feel pressue coming when it's not quite there.

If you actually watch Thomas play you'll see his teammates are always in the area where he's making a play. Something those youtube highlights show over and over again.
 
Gotcha

As Elite safeties retire and leave the NFL, Mcourty moves up to being called Elite by default because he is still playing. Sounds like a good system.

Yes, it's true. In sports, old players retire and new players come up, and players are judged against those players still in the league. I'm surprised that this is news to you. I'd have thought the whole "yearly awards" notion would have been enough to help you work all that out.
 
McCourty was flat out awful in the 1st quarter. 1st quarter 5:15 mark got beat deep on a seem pass to Thomas. Simms went onto say that Denver knew they could hit this play due to watching film and they picked up on McCourty tends to be late and often out of position. He tended to be late in Colts playoff game and let up two long TD's. Not my words they were Simms.
Based on my amateur knowledge of coverages (and somebody can feel free to correct me if they think I'm wrong), that play looked exactly like what people want to do with Revis. It was a 5-man blitz, and the four DBs (other than McCourty) plus Collins each had man coverage on a receiver. But more specifically, it sure looks to me like Talib was on an island, with McCourty playing more of a deep half on the opposite side, something like...
7vVMbFT.png

(Blus is coverage, orange is pass rush. The DTs cross, and then Hightower goes up the middle between them. There's no good way to draw that in Paint.)

Now there are two main reasons that I came to this conclusion. The three guys on the offensive right side all engage their defenders at the line. Talib doesn't. He goes straight into his backpedal without any attempt at a jam. A few moments after the snap, the coverage looks like this:
i5ACSvC.png

One of these things is not like the others. The three defenders on the offensive right side are jamming their receivers. Talib is not. If my thinking on this play is correct, that's because Talib needs to respect the deep ball more than the other defenders. They have McCourty backing them up, while Talib does not. And then...

QsPzPHF.png

There are two things happening in this picture. First of all, notice McCourty's position. The term you hear a lot is the "rotation" of the safeties. When the SS comes up in a shorter zone or in this case man coverage, usually the FS rotates more toward the middle of the field. There's no rotation back there. From the snap to when McCourty makes his break toward Demaryius Thomas, he's gone basically straight back 8 yards. Again, feel free to correct me, but I would think that if McCourty had any responsibilities as far as helping Talib, then he would at least made some movement toward that side of the field.

And of course, the other thing to notice in this picture is Talib. He's facing outside while his receiver flies by on the inside. Yes, I understand why Talib bit so hard on the fake outside. If Thomas beats him to the outside and Peyton delivers a good ball, it's a TD. At least by funneling Thomas inside, it was only a 29 yard play (and eventually a field goal) rather than a TD. Still, I think that's the biggest difference between Revis and Talib. Talib did a lot of good work singled up on some good receivers, but I would expect that Revis makes this kind of mistake a lot less often.

At least from my point of view, this wasn't at all McCourty getting beat down the seam. It was McCourty cleaning up Talib's mess. They were asking a lot from Talib on the play, and he couldn't do it. I think the announcers completely over simplified things, and unfortunately most people aren't going to give it any second thought.
 
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