D Mac #3 ranked Safety.

[Deus Irae]

I agree with @strngplyr here. Throwing Dmacs CB numbers in there is unfair unless it's to show that he can play multiple positions. As a DB you probably get more passes defender than you do as a safety because you play much closer to the receiver and should be in positions to bat the ball away more times in a game than a safety is.

Stats aren't that good for comparing DBs either. They can be very misleading. Look at Logan Ryans picks last year or Arringtons picks a few years ago. The stats there makes them look way better than they actually are.

In the context of this particular thread, the use of the numbers makes perfect sense.

 

[Brady6]

I am one of the biggest DMC fans out there, however, to be fair, half of his picks did come during his rookie season at CB, while I don't have the numbers, I have to assume that being a rookie CB he was targeted a lot to get the chances at that many INT's, 7 is an insanely high number and usually only 1 or 2 guys hit/eclipse that in a season.

But, like I said, I definitely believe he's a top 3 FS and one of the best DB's in the entire NFL, but is is a little unfair to throw his CB stats in there when comparing 4 seasons to a safety, unless you're also trying to add the "versatility" value to him, which by all means, continue.

He had 7 picks as a rookie, 2 in year 2, 5 in year 3, and just 1 last season. Last season he dropped a number of footballs he would have caught in the past, not sure, if it were just bad luck or what. I said this in a number of game day threads last season and I will say it again now – the difference between McCourty being the #1 safety in the NFL and being what he is now is converting those interceptions. I am confident that he will do that in the next few years, as he grows more comfortable with the safety position.

As far the rookie season goes he was playing CB in a zone system, which is not much different from playing safety in many respects, it is about playing the football and not playing the man.

Many overlook that Earl Thomas also entered the NFL as a cornerback before converting to full time safety in 2011. In 2010, he played a hybrid nickel/safety role, 5 of his 15 picks came in that season, so he and McCourty are still similar.

 

[Brady6]

I agree with @strngplyr here. Throwing Dmacs CB numbers in there is unfair unless it's to show that he can play multiple positions. As a DB you probably get more passes defender than you do as a safety because you play much closer to the receiver and should be in positions to bat the ball away more times in a game than a safety is.

Earl Thomas just like McCourty entered the NFL as a CB; he was take #14 in the same class as McCourty in 2010. During the 2010 season, Thomas played as a hybrid nickel cornerback/free safety. McCourty played in a zone coverage scheme in 2010, which many times is positioned the same way a safety would be.

Stats aren't that good for comparing DBs either. They can be very misleading. Look at Logan Ryans picks last year or Arringtons picks a few years ago. The stats there makes them look way better than they actually are.

That is because you are only looking at interceptions, those may be right place right time situations, but do not forget that McCourty has more forced fumbles, more run stuffs, and more pass defenses.

 

[Marinlik]

Earl Thomas just like McCourty entered the NFL as a CB; he was take #14 in the same class as McCourty in 2010. During the 2010 season, Thomas played as a hybrid nickel cornerback/free safety. McCourty played in a zone coverage scheme in 2010, which many times is positioned the same way a safety would be.

That is because you are only looking at interceptions, those may be right place right time situations, but do not forget that McCourty has more forced fumbles, more run stuffs, and more pass defenses.

No that was just an example I gave. Stats can be very missleading in football in general and especially for DBs, you seem to give way to much weight to stats and combine numbers.

I really love to have Dmac as our safety. I think that he is top 3 in this league. But he isn't as good Earl Thomas.

 

[Brady6]

No that was just an example I gave. Stats can be very missleading in football in general and especially for DBs, you seem to give way to much weight to stats and combine numbers.

I really love to have Dmac as our safety. I think that he is top 3 in this league. But he isn't as good Earl Thomas.

My question would be what does Earl Thomas do better than Devin McCourty does?

 

[Wheelman]

Earl Thomas is more physical and a heavier hitter than McCourty. But I do believe McCourty has slightly more range.

 

[PatFanCraig]

I think Thomas And Devin are very similar. Neither are hard hitters but deliver a pop.Thomas seems to have slightly better lower body explosion but they both have similar range,instincts and ball skills with Earls lower half explosion helping him with bigger WRs. But McCourty is newer at safety and will improve as he gears up to embrace being a safety. There's not more than 4 players at Fs you can argue is being better.

 

[Kontradiction]

Earl Thomas is more physical and a heavier hitter than McCourty. But I do believe McCourty has slightly more range.

He doesn't. Earl Thomas has McCourty beat there, too. Not to say that Thomas is faster, he just always seems to be closer to every play than McCourty is because of his instincts and his ability to read what the offense is doing, pre-snap, and process it faster. That's not bagging on McCourty. That's just to say that Thomas is the best safety in the league.

 

[mayoclinic]

He doesn't. Earl Thomas has McCourty beat there, too. Not to say that Thomas is faster, he just always seems to be closer to every play than McCourty is because of his instincts and his ability to read what the offense is doing, pre-snap, and process it faster. That's not bagging on McCourty. That's just to say that Thomas is the best safety in the league.

I don't think there's any question about what you say. Through 2013, Thomas is clearly more instinctive than McCourty, makes faster and better reads, and plays with better "pop". As you say, he is the best in the league, and the best pure FS since Ed Reed. However, Thomas has been playing safety for 4 years, and for most of that time he's played with excellent press-man CBs. McCourty has only been playing the position for a year and a half, and for most of that time his main duty has been to guard the deep part of the field and stop the hemorrhaging that was occurring in 2011-2012, when the Pats' secondary was a big play sieve. I'm hoping that with better CB play and more experience that we'll see McCourty start to close the gap a bit and do some more of what Thomas currently does.

 

[Brady6]

He doesn't. Earl Thomas has McCourty beat there, too. Not to say that Thomas is faster, he just always seems to be closer to every play than McCourty is because of his instincts and his ability to read what the offense is doing, pre-snap, and process it faster. That's not bagging on McCourty. That's just to say that Thomas is the best safety in the league.

I do not want to rely to heavily on statistics but I have a hard to viewing Earl Thomas as this instinctive player to the level that you and many indicate. He has never had more than 9 pass defenses in a season, an instinctive player would be making a lot more plays on the ball, he also had 0 run stuffs last season so he is not instinctively reading the run either. If you watch his interceptions, many of them are result of tip passes by the cornerback and Thomas is in the area as deep coverage and brings it in. Ed Reed was an instinctive player in 2003 he had 7 interceptions, 16 pass defenses, 8 run stuffs, in 2004 he had 9 interceptions, 17 pass defenses, 5 run stuffs, that is a player who is reading plays and making plays.

I do not see anything that indicates Earl Thomas reads anything pre snap that McCourty does not, I see a player who played with Sherman, Chancellor, and Browner for the majority of his career, along with an effective front 7, that he benefits from, which creates a misconception of what it is that he brings to a football field. That is not a knock on Thomas but I think you and others overrate him, as is the case with that entire Seattle secondary, break them down into pieces on their own and I do not think the players would be 80% of what they are together.

 

[Ivan]

He doesn't. Earl Thomas has McCourty beat there, too. Not to say that Thomas is faster, he just always seems to be closer to every play than McCourty is because of his instincts and his ability to read what the offense is doing, pre-snap, and process it faster. That's not bagging on McCourty. That's just to say that Thomas is the best safety in the league.

The argument that McCourty is the best safety in football is the flip side of the McCourty sucks argument, neither is based in reason. Could Devin McCourty turn himself into the best safety in football over the next few seasons, yes, is he right now, no, and I seriously doubt you could find one GM who would make that trade straight up. Statistics don't tell the story that he is and they don't make the case he isn't, simply put the eye test tells anyone who watches the game that Thomas is the better player. And if you posted a poll in this forum right now i would guess that about 95% of Patriot fans would be smart enough to take Thomas.

 

[Kontradiction]

I do not want to rely to heavily on statistics but I have a hard to viewing Earl Thomas as this instinctive player to the level that you and many indicate. He has never had more than 9 pass defenses in a season, an instinctive player would be making a lot more plays on the ball, he also had 0 run stuffs last season so he is not instinctively reading the run either. If you watch his interceptions, many of them are result of tip passes by the cornerback and Thomas is in the area as deep coverage and brings it in. Ed Reed was an instinctive player in 2003 he had 7 interceptions, 16 pass defenses, 8 run stuffs, in 2004 he had 9 interceptions, 17 pass defenses, 5 run stuffs, that is a player who is reading plays and making plays.

I do not see anything that indicates Earl Thomas reads anything pre snap that McCourty does not, I see a player who played with Sherman, Chancellor, and Browner for the majority of his career, along with an effective front 7, that he benefits from, which creates a misconception of what it is that he brings to a football field. That is not a knock on Thomas but I think you and others overrate him, as is the case with that entire Seattle secondary, break them down into pieces on their own and I do not think the players would be 80% of what they are together.

The argument made for McCourty earlier in this thread is that top tier FS's in the NFL don't see those kind of stats because opposing quarterbacks tend to avoid them. It's the reason Revis has never tallied a high amount of INT's. The same can be said for Thomas. Most FS's in the NFL today don't have a ton of run stuffs like Reed did in 2004 either. Reed was a FS who also had the ability to play like a SS and come up to take on the run. That's why Reed will go down as, quite possibly, the greatest FS of all time.

Thomas has the speed of a cornerback, the play recongition of a MLB, and the hitting ability of a SS. Those qualities all make him the best FS in the NFL with or without the Legion of Boom surrounding him. Those guys just make his job easier. Can McCourty get to where he is? Sure. But I don't see McCourty dishing out some of the hits that Thomas does.

 

[AzorianPats]

I think Thomas is the best safety in the game, but I never found him to be a big hitter. I think D Mac a better tackler than him.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think Thomas is the best safety in the game, but I never found him to be a big hitter. I think D Mac a better tackler than him.

Thomas is a big hitter when the throw is in his neighborhood. He's not a guy that you're going to constantly see making highlight reel hits like Pollard (who will then get smoked on a deep post) but he does hit. Check out what he did to Harvin a couple of years ago.

 

[patfanken]

Some comments on the comments on the last page:.

1. Regardless of where you come down on whether McCourty is better than Thomas, worse than Thomas or close to Thomas, what I can't understand is the absolute certainty people place in their reasoning. Sorry but it just so difficult to compare players, especially when they play in such radically different systems and styles.

So while trying to put together a ranking of individual players, who play in such a team oriented game; is pretty much an exercise in futility. It has some entertainment value, and God knows we are going to need some entertainment in the next few weeks. . Its just I find it kind of ludicrous that people would fight so hard for a position that has about as much value as a pre-season power ranking.

2. I also don't understand why people want to label McCourty exclusively as a FS. I have been preaching this for a while now, but I don't seem to have many converts. But when the Pats are in a 2 deep coverage, McCourty is just as likely to wide up on the strong side of the formation as the weak. It depends on how the offense aligns. BTW- I have no idea if Thomas switches position based on formation.

3. Another thing that makes it so difficult to compare the two is the fact that we see EVERY single snap that McCourty plays, while most of us only get to see highlights of Thomas' play, or a single game, now and again. No questioning Thoimas' ability, but no player is going to come off well when you dissecting every play, vs somebody's highlights

4. By EVERY account, from the media, his peers, and football professionals, Devin McCourty is a very good NFL Safety who is a big asset to his team. Whether he's the first, second, or third, etc best is kind of irrelevant when you think about it. I just know I'm glad he's on our team.

 

[Ring 6]

Some comments on the comments on the last page:.

1. Regardless of where you come down on whether McCourty is better than Thomas, worse than Thomas or close to Thomas, what I can't understand is the absolute certainty people place in their reasoning. Sorry but it just so difficult to compare players, especially when they play in such radically different systems and styles.

So while trying to put together a ranking of individual players, who play in such a team oriented game; is pretty much an exercise in futility. It has some entertainment value, and God knows we are going to need some entertainment in the next few weeks. . Its just I find it kind of ludicrous that people would fight so hard for a position that has about as much value as a pre-season power ranking.

2. I also don't understand why people want to label McCourty exclusively as a FS. I have been preaching this for a while now, but I don't seem to have many converts. But when the Pats are in a 2 deep coverage, McCourty is just as likely to wide up on the strong side of the formation as the weak. It depends on how the offense aligns. BTW- I have no idea if Thomas switches position based on formation.

3. Another thing that makes it so difficult to compare the two is the fact that we see EVERY single snap that McCourty plays, while most of us only get to see highlights of Thomas' play, or a single game, now and again. No questioning Thoimas' ability, but no player is going to come off well when you dissecting every play, vs somebody's highlights

4. By EVERY account, from the media, his peers, and football professionals, Devin McCourty is a very good NFL Safety who is a big asset to his team. Whether he's the first, second, or third, etc best is kind of irrelevant when you think about it. I just know I'm glad he's on our team.

One clarification.
While the Patriots do play LS/RS when they play man, they designate strong and free.

 

[Brady6]

The argument made for McCourty earlier in this thread is that top tier FS's in the NFL don't see those kind of stats because opposing quarterbacks tend to avoid them. It's the reason Revis has never tallied a high amount of INT's. The same can be said for Thomas. Most FS's in the NFL today don't have a ton of run stuffs like Reed did in 2004 either. Reed was a FS who also had the ability to play like a SS and come up to take on the run. That's why Reed will go down as, quite possibly, the greatest FS of all time.

I do not think QBs throw away from Thomas in the same way the do a top CBs like Revis. Thomas is a single high safety in most situations so he is not with a man that the QB can avoid.

No doubt that Thomas is a great player but he is great like Eric Weddle not like Ed Reed.

 

[Kontradiction]

I do not think QBs throw away from Thomas in the same way the do a top CBs like Revis. Thomas is a single high safety in most situations so he is not with a man that the QB can avoid.

If you're an elite safety, quarterbacks tend to throw away from your side of the field. You're touting McCourty as an elite FS (which he is) and the argument has been used that stats in most cases should not apply to elite FS's in his favor but now you're trying to use that against Thomas. That is illogical at best and smacks of an agenda.

No doubt that Thomas is a great player but he is great like Eric Weddle not like Ed Reed.

Weddle is not great. He's good. He's in the second tier. Thomas, by your own admission, is great and is the best in the league right now. Ed Reed might be the GOAT at his position so you may be doing Thomas a disservice comparing him to Ed Reed in his prime.

 

[Brady6]

Earl Thomas plays centerfield, Devin McCourty is assigned to one side of the field. Thomas can make more plays because he is not handcuffed to one side of the field.

 

[Brady6]

If you're an elite safety, quarterbacks tend to throw away from your side of the field. You're touting McCourty as an elite FS (which he is) and the argument has been used that stats in most cases should not apply to elite FS's in his favor but now you're trying to use that against Thomas. That is illogical at best and smacks of an agenda.

I never said stats should not apply to elite SAFs, you must be confusing me with someone else. I think stats indicate the performance of a SAF more than just about any position on the field. They are a support player, their job is to make plays on the football.

Weddle is not great. He's good. He's in the second tier. Thomas, by your own admission, is great and is the best in the league right now. Ed Reed might be the GOAT at his position so you may be doing Thomas a disservice comparing him to Ed Reed in his prime.

I see very little separation if any between Thomas and Weddle when he was 25 years old. Weddle has slowed a bit with age.